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Games Entertainment

More on Future X-Box Capabilities 301

Posted by CmdrTaco from the coming-not-so-soon-to-a-rack-near-you dept.
rtphokie writes "The oft - rumored expansion of Microsoft's Xbox from a gaming console to a more full featured entertainment hub is taking a little more shape. A C|Net article tells of a HomeStation device which is claimed to be slated for a fall release. In addition to Xbox game compatibility and DVD functionality, it is reported to have TiVo/UltimateTV like PVR functionality as well as WebTV like email and web surfing capabilities. This "report" comes on the heels of the announcement of the Moxi Digital set-top MoxiMedia Center which was named "Best of Show" at the recent Consumer Electronics Show."
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More on Future X-Box Capabilities More

More on Future X-Box Capabilities

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  • Where are the other developers? Why is X10 the only other company besides MS spending $$$ to educate the masses? I am sure there are better products out there, but just like DEC and Novell they don't have a marketing department.
  • I also hear that you can hook up the clapper to it.

    Clap off, clap on....Ever claped a BSOD?

  • I don't think I'd trust Microsoft to record any television I thought important enough to try to record. I'd get to the good part watching it later, and it would crash my TV. Then their help desk would tell me I needed to upgrade my television or something. No, I'll just stick to VHS tapes and my DVD player, thank you.
    • Well even with that, I remember recently hearing on the radio that the "new" way of digitally recording TV (eliminating commercials, which has been available on VCR's for some time now) was being contested, and that some were ready to sue. So what would be special about an xbox recording? I think $40 for a VCR is a little bit more cost effective....

  • Rumors (Score:1, Troll)

    by RazzleFrog ( 537054 )
    There seems to be a whole lotta rumors and assumptions in this article. They don't even agree on when it would happen. It might make sense but they might as well be guessing that Microsoft will launch porn site - I mean they have the resources to do it.

  • Beatrice? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by psychophil.com ( 2573 ) on Wednesday January 16, 2002 @11:41AM (#2848174) Homepage
    Anyone rememember many years back the Beatrice commercials? You'd see commercials for everyday brand name products and that last second of the commercial was a little jingle and the words 'We're Beatrice'.

    Remember how fast thost commercials went away? People start freaking out when they realizes that 65-75% of the products they use where produced by a single company. Beatrice quickly dropped the 'look how freaking large we are' strategy and went back to just promoting the single brand names on their own.

    I can't help but think the same thing is going to happen to microsoft. People are going to suddenly wake up and realize the the MS logo is on their computer, tv's, vcr's/dvr's, video games, toddler toys, kitchen appliances, car electroncs, etc...
    • What ever happened to Beatrice, anyway? They're no longer on the NYSE ... change of name? breakup?
    • Karma whoring: Remembering "Beatrice" [culturefreak.com].

    • Re:Beatrice? (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Torgo's Pizza ( 547926 )
      I'm not so sure. I mean, my TV, stereo receiver, speakers, DVD player, DVD movies, CD player, video game console and car stereo all have SONY stamped on them. Yet I don't see people freaking out about that.

      When it comes to software, yes people freak out because of the monopoly issue. However, when it comes to hardware and gadgets, Joe Average isn't so afraid. Normal folk don't think of Microsoft as a hardware company like Sony or Panasonic. Perhaps they should, considering how well MS has done with the X-Box so far. I think we're still a few years off from having Microsoft suffering from the "Beatrice Effect". People still have the general perception that MS is still a software company.

    • Re: Beatrice (Score:5, Interesting)

      by tiltowait ( 306189 ) on Wednesday January 16, 2002 @12:02PM (#2848300) Homepage Journal
      The irony here being that Beatrice was later bought out by a bigger company (ConAgra).

      Other companies have changed their names as they grow (First Union bought out Wachovia, and took its name to boot).

      So yeah that Microsoft strategy is a good idea. I mean can you imagine if people knew there was a single company controlling something like: AOL, AOL Instant Messenger, AOL TV, Asiaweek, Atlanta Braves, Atlanta Hawks, Atlanta Thrashers, Atlantic Records, Baby Talk, Book-of-the-Month Club, Capitol Records, Cartoon Network, Castle Rock Entertainment, Cinemax, CNN, CNNfn, Coastal Living, Columbia House, Comedy Central, CompuServe, Cooking Light, Court TV, DC Comics, Digital City, eCompany Now, Elektra, EMI, Entertaindom.com, Entertainment Weekly, ESPN, Family Life, Fortune Magazine, Goodwill Games, Hanna-Barbera, HBO, Headline News, Health Magazine, ICQ, InStyle, Life Magazine, Little Brown, Looney Tunes, Mad Magazine, Money Magazine, MovieFone, Netscape, New Line Cinema, NY1 News, the Open Directory Project, People Magazine, Progressive Farmer, Qwest, Real Simple, Rhino, Road Runner, Southern Accents, Southern Living, Spinner, Sports Illustrated Magazines, Sunset, TBS, Teen People, Telepictures Productions, This Old House, Time Magazines, Time Warner Cable, TNT, Tommy Boy Music, Turner Classic Movies, Virgin Records, Warner Brothers Companies (Movies, Television Network, Video, Music, Stores), Winamp, and World Championship Wrestling. I mean really, that would be crazy.

      • Re: Beatrice (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Torgo's Pizza ( 547926 ) on Wednesday January 16, 2002 @12:24PM (#2848420) Homepage Journal
        Small nitpick - ESPN is owned by Disney, which in turns controls:
        • ABC Television Network, several television stations (WABC, KABC, WLS, WPVI, KGO, KTRK, WTVD, KFSN, WJRT, WTVG), Buena Vista, ABC Radio Network, several radio stations (WABC, WPLJ, KABC, KSPN, KDIS, KLOS, WLS, WMVP, WRDZ, WPJX, WZZN, KGO, KSFO, KMKY, WWJZ, KMKI, WBAP, KSCS, KMEO, KESN, WJR, WDRQ, WDVD, WMAL, WJZW, WRQX, KMIC, WMYM, WDWD, WKHX, WYAY, KKDZ, KDIZ, KQRS, KXXR, WGVX, WGVY, WGVZ, KMIK, WSDZ, WEAE, WWMI, KADZ, KDDZ, WWMK, WKMI, WIID, WDDZ, WGFY, WDYZ, WMNE, WDZY, WDZK), investments in A&E, Lifetime, E! Entertainment Television, The History Channel, ABC Internet Operations, ABC Family, Disney Channel, Disney Channel International, Toon Disney, SoapNet, Walt Disney Pictures, Touchstone Pictures, Hollywood Pictures, Miramax Films, Dimension Films, Buena Vista Home Entertainment, Buena Vista Music Group, Walt Disney Records, Walk Disney Music Publishing, Hollywood Records, Mammoth Records, Lyric Street Records, Buena Vista Theatrical Group, Animated Walt Disney Television, Animated Buena Vista Television, Disneylant Resort, Walt Disney World Resort, Tokyo Disney Resort, Disneyland Resort Paris, Disney Vacation CLub, Disney Cruise Line, ESPN Zone, Walt Disney Imagineering, Mighty Ducks (NHL), Anaheim Angels (MLB), 25 Hotels, Toys, Apparel, Hyperion Books, Disney Store.com

        But it's an easy mistake to make.

      • In Canada on CNN, AOL Time Warner runs a "aren't we great" ad that basically does just that. It lists: AOL, CNN, CNN Headline News, TSB, TNN, Tuner Classic Movies, Time, Warner Brothers, New Line Cinema, Netscape and maybe others. I think it should be Exhibit A in any Microsoft defense any against the charge that they are attacking, Netscape - the little guy.

      • Re: Beatrice (Score:3, Interesting)

        by morcheeba ( 260908 )
        The scary part is that there are only 5 other huge media corporations [oneworld.org] in the world, each with a list that's just as impressive. The pdf above doesn't go into the same kind of detail, but still gives a good idea.
      • In due fairness, Comedy Central [comedycentral.com] is jointly owned by Viacom [viacom.com] (yeah, that other mega-entertainment company) and HBO (which is an "AOL/TW Property", of course).

    • "People are going to suddenly wake up and realize the the MS logo is on their computer, tv's, vcr's/dvr's, video games, toddler toys, kitchen appliances, car electroncs, etc

      but people havent woken up to Sony yet , Sony are just about the only company that can complete the circle from not only producing the Artists [sonymusic.com] that make the media (and the equipment [sony.com] they use to create it) to delivering it to the consumers eyes/ears on their Sony stereo/TV/computer/etc [sonystyle.com] yet people still shower them with praise and dont feel they are a monopoly, even microsoft are not in Sonys exclusive position

      • but people havent woken up to Sony yet , Sony are just about the only company that can complete the --snip--

        Well, you can CHOOSE not to use Sony. I have for just this reason. I buy an occasional CD that comes from a Sony artist but anything else I own that's Sony-made has been bought secondhand. I don't like their corporate culture, their proprietary stance and I don't like their pervasiveness. Not buying new Sony-branded stuff hasn't made my life bad.
      • Sony has their fingers in many more pots than Microsoft, but they don't have a monopoly in any one market like Microsoft does with PC operating systems. That's the big difference! You're really comparing apples to oranges.

        Sure, Sony likes to be all proprietary whenever possible with their memory sticks, etc, etc, but they're not in a monopoly position so in my mind it's okay, because you can choose to avoid them (or at least those sony products which embrace proprietary standards).
  • The media port on the back of the Xbox is labelled Video Input/Output. If it had a method of storing PVR info on a network share, it might have everything it needs now.

    Golly, this is the first pro Xbox message in this article...hope it doesn't get modded into oblivion!
    • I doubt very seriously we'll see free or low cost upgrades for the Xbox. Did MS even market it as an upgradable device?

      I'm guessing if any upgrades to appear, they'll be pretty expensive.
    • Pinouts [siliconice.net] for the Xbox video port. There's no provision for any signal inputs.
    • There's no reason the X-box can't be fitted to be a "poor man's Tivo" or better yet a "poor teenager/student's Tivo." MS could use the intel processor to do a small mpeg-2 compression and then zoom it out to fill the screen. It may sound crappy, but if the dongle/adapter/whatever is priced at a fraction of what a VCR costs then you've just saved a whole lot of money. It could even look a lot better than your typical EP/LP VCR recordings. You can market it as the DVD player that records too.

      The fact that MS didn't market this box as an all-in-one game/tv/tivo/web/email solution probably means this is just speculation or that they didn't want to press to pick up on the magic word "Bundle." Bundle would turn off a lot of people who are ambivalent towards MS but don't want to pay extra for stuff they don't need or turn off people who already have an OS monopolist gripe with them.

      Its a PC disguised as a game machine, it can be a lot of other things if there's a market and most importantly if MS can compete in that market.
    • Not to be a nudge (XBox is my favorite console right now) but I think the video "input" is relatively simplistic: like telling the XBox a video kit is hooked up and which one (RCA, HDTV, S-Video, etc.). Also, it most likely tells the XBox when the wire is disconnected (try removing the wire and looking at the front light sometime).

      Outside of this, yes it would be cool. But no, I don't think it'll happen. :)

  • "this report"

    What is that supposed to mean? Why the quote marks? Are you claiming the article is not, in fact, a report? Or are you just injecting cynical sarcasm to boost your /. reputation as a Microsoft-hater?

    Perhaps you really have a reason, I don't know, but some description of why you would characterize this as a "report" instead of a report would at least provide some clarity as to your thoughts on the matter.

    • I think he put it in quotes because, as I stated above, the whole story is suspect. There is no solid evidence of anything that is prognosticated.
      • Sure, I understand that the product is vapor, but the fact that someone reported that there are plans to make it is not suspect. Are we saying that there are no plans to make it, and the report was just made up? I'm sure all reports of new products are exaggerated and hopeful in their timing, but it's not as if they are creative writing or fictional short-stories.
        • I agree with you. I wouldn't have put in quotes either. I actually very rarely use quotes unless I am actually quoting something. I prefer italics or bold if I need to emphasize something. Either way, I was really trying to read the original authors mind.
    • It deserves the scare quotes because it's a security analyst pushing one of his stocks - it's not an objective report.

    • Thank You (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Ars-Fartsica ( 166957 )
      Thank you for once again pointing out the idiotic bias of the editors of this site. Its not only dishonest, its an insult to the rest of us who like our reporting somewhat unvarnished (which should be everyone who graduated from high school).

      Unfortunately as the linux industry comes down from its 2001 high, sites like this are devolving into raw, unreasoned advocacy. check out comp.os.os2.advocacy circa about 1996 to see where /. is heading.

  • wow (Score:5, Funny)

    by TheQuantumShift ( 175338 ) <monkeyknifefight@internationalwaters.com> on Wednesday January 16, 2002 @11:42AM (#2848184) Homepage
    someone actually came out and called that "Modified Pentium 3" what it really is...

    Mosesmann said the HomeStation will be based on the Xbox design, which is similar to a PC and uses standard PC components such as an Intel Celeron processor and USB ports.

    Homestation. If you listen real close, you can hear Sony's lawyers suiting up...

    • Re:wow (Score:2)

      by garcia ( 6573 )
      That makes no sense to me.

      Playstation -> Homestation.
      Windows -> Lindows.

      I think that should be the only god damn piece of evidence in the Lindows case.

      BTW -- that is the best quote from Dilbert. I am pissing my pants over it :)
      • "Playstation" is openly acknowledged to be the answer to the question 'If one uses a workstation to do computer work, what would one use to do computer games?'
  • Personally, I don't like the idea of turning on my television to watch TechTV and getting the Blue Screen of Death.
    • Do you mean on your TV, or on TechTV's systems? The latter is more likely.

      Has Leo tried to install Linux within the time frame of his show recently?
  • is that Microsoft actually has all of their stuff written already, while the MoxiBoxi is currently vapor-tastic. Unless, of course, Moxi is just planning on rolling out a slightly tweaked WinXP embedded box, which would create nothing more than a Homestation minus XBOX game compatability. Personally, I think Microsoft release WinXP embedded for no other reason than to make corporations feel silly about writing their own STB software. Then, when the suits decide to just use the XP Embedded softwares, they'll have a hard time distinguishing themselves from a superior (XBOX compatible) Homestation.

  • WebTV? /shiver (Score:3, Interesting)

    by FileNotFound ( 85933 ) on Wednesday January 16, 2002 @11:45AM (#2848199) Homepage Journal
    Xbox will have WebTV like capability?

    Just when you thought the cursed thing had died.
    Has anyone ever tried to make a webpage work with it? By far the most cryptic errors ever.

    "This page is too large to display" on a TINY page.

    Tivo? How big is the HD on the Xbox anyway.

    Now I've been dreaming of this for years.

    Why not instead of trying to make a PC out of an Xbox make an Xbox out of a PC?

    Why not release a $150 card or even $300 one that you stick and your PC and tada you can play Xbox games on your nice non blury monitor?
    Same with PS2 etc.

    Staying on topic, M$ trying to make something do everything is typical. So expect the Xbox to try to do many things and fail at all of them.
    • Why not release a $150 card or even $300 one that you stick and your PC and tada you can play Xbox games on your nice non blury monitor? Same with PS2 etc.

      Or, Microsoft could just make a $30 VGA adapter. I don't know why they don't - there's one for the PS2, one for the Dreamcast, and probably one for the Gamecube...

      Actually, I was ready to flame you out the wazoo for your idea, but then I checked and discovered to my suprise that Microsoft doesn't make a VGA-adapter.

      Puzzling! And interesting... there must be some reason... it's almost like they don't want the XBox encroaching on the PC's territory. And yet, their future plans seem to revolve around the idea of XBox/HomeStation/etc encroaching on the PC's territory. It's not like they're afraid of losing money on making this adapter- I'm sure 3-rd party companies would gladly pay for a license to make it, no financial risk to Microsoft there...
  • Coming soon: No longer will you have to suffer from out awesome green graphic of death! It will become customisable! How about orange! Yellow? Avaliable in a week, the classics! Pure blue screen of death(tm). Now doesn't that bring back memories! Try to resist your nostalgic impulses, because we also have the newer WinNT Screen of Blue and While letters! (tm) Oh, those were the days, when you could try to decipher those cryptic codes and such. You are worried about costs! Don't be! With our new "WeAreWatchingYou24HoursADayEvenWhileYouCrap" technology youi can rent these on an hourly basis, and we will even have a hired goon come to your house and remove them after you have stopped payments! Did we say hired goon? We meant Nice Friendly Mr Happy Guy! Yay!
  • I think Mr. Gates put the hurt on that little venture

  • No longer a hoax?? (Score:4, Informative)

    by thesolo ( 131008 ) <slap@fighttheriaa.org> on Wednesday January 16, 2002 @11:47AM (#2848210) Homepage
    This was first brought up several months ago in an article on The Register [theregister.co.uk], but everyone widely dismissed it as a hoax.

    PC Format also covered it [pcformat.co.uk] a few weeks ago, and people still dismissed it as a hoax.

    Now its on C|Net, is it still consired a hoax??? Or is it now a definite sign of things to come?

  • Microsoft denies this (Score:3, Informative)

    by Arthur Dent 75 ( 221061 ) on Wednesday January 16, 2002 @11:47AM (#2848211) Homepage
    Microsoft Germany spokesman Boris Schneider-Johne has denied [heise.de] (apologies for the german link) to Heise that Microsoft is working on such a thing.

  • what about ... (Score:2, Funny)

    by s20451 ( 410424 )

    In addition to Xbox game compatibility and DVD functionality, it is reported to have TiVo/UltimateTV like PVR functionality as well as WebTV like email and web surfing capabilities.

    What about the rumored mind control capabilities? ... oh, TV ... never mind.

  • How do they expect Xbox to become the HUB .. (Score:4, Funny)

    by SirSlud ( 67381 ) on Wednesday January 16, 2002 @11:50AM (#2848232) Homepage
    ... when you have to literally tear any nearby 12 yr olds off the black box to do something with it other than play DOA3?!

  • Gonna Party Likes It's 1975 (Score:4, Interesting)

    by CrazyLegs ( 257161 ) <crazylegstoo@gmail.com> on Wednesday January 16, 2002 @11:52AM (#2848242) Homepage
    Ya know... When I hear about the XBox (or any other home-u-tainment product) is gonna do X once add-on Y hits the market, I can't help but recall my first stereo circa 1975. It was once of those integrated jobbies that did everything in one box, but did nothing particularly well.

    I just can't help thinking thinking that if I want the capabilities of a TIVO, DVD player, game console, etc. then I would just go to the manufactures would DO this stuff well and buy a TIVO, etc. etc.

    The XBox might be a fantastic piece of tech, but MS doesn't have a particularly good record in the consumer electronics market.

  • The C|Net article is just a rehash of last week's PC Format article [pcformat.co.uk] which in turn already spawned this [slashdot.org] discussion on Slashdot.

    That aside, show me another game console that can pull this off. Microsoft or not, this is a few years ahead of what Sony or Nintendo is going to be doing.

    • That aside, show me another game console that can pull this off. Microsoft or not, this is a few years ahead of what Sony or Nintendo is going to be doing.

      Just what do you think Sony has been doing since the PS2 was released in Oct/Nov 2000?

      Sony holds their cards a little closer than Microsoft does and for good reason. I'm curious to see what they come up with.

  • Interesting, smart move... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by alexhmit01 ( 104757 ) on Wednesday January 16, 2002 @11:52AM (#2848244)
    With the release of the Xbox as it is, it was a retarded move. They released a mediocre PC masquerading as a game console with mediocre games.

    The only extras were the DVD (Sony beat them here) and the MP3 ripping/playing.

    This isn't MS.

    Microsoft strategy is to bundle several mediocre implementations in one box, undercut the competition, and establish a monopoly.

    See MS Word vs. Wordperfect, Word got clobbered.
    Excel vs. 1-2-3, Excel got clobbered.

    Solution, sell "Office" for less than Wordperfect was individually? Boom, market yours.

    Look at the 3 consoles. PS2 wins if you want a quantity of games, period. If you are into renting new games all the time with lots of variety, you need a PS2.

    Gamecube has an amazing controller, tremendous graphics, and the best hardware in the business. (Blah, blah, blah, Mhz, blah, blah, blah, the Xbox processor is going to be slow compared to a customized PPC G3 with a game-taillored vector unit... think Altivec on crack in Photoshop shootouts... Intel only looks good in integer math... games don't do integer math...) Also it brings Nintendo's franchises, which are the best in the business.

    What does Xbox have? Hype? Newness?

    Microsoft needs to leverage more than their cash (willingness to lose $3 billion over three years to establish a presence is stupid... Atari, Nintendo, and Sony each dominated the market their first time out the door). There is no market openning now as there was Sony entered (3rd party hatred of Nintendo and Sega). The market loves Sony and the 25m-30m Nintendo fans love Nintendo.

    Microsoft needs to bundle:
    a mediocre DVD player
    a mediocre video game player
    a mediocre MP3 jukebox
    a mediocre PVR (VCR Replacement)

    and price them all at $300. I don't care about the specs, but they need to force families to think, "Sure the PS2 plays DVDs and games, but the MS Homestation does all this for the same price!"
    • It might work like that. If your analogy held. While you can type a paper on both Office or Wordperfect, you definitatly cannot play Final Fantasy on both Xbox or PS2.

      There are just some games that will not be ported to the other platform. Halo? RE4 is a GC exclusive.

      I don't think that all the features in the world are going to make a difference, DVD playing is almost a moot feature anymore because DVD players are so cheap. If anything I think that it will just confuse most people.

      It's a VCR.
      It's a game player!
      Watch your movies on it.
      It makes you popcorn while you watch.

      What does the X-Box do anymore? I don't know, it's all just hype at this point.

      Real nerds are building their dream systems, not drooling over what you MIGHT be able to do with the X-Box. ( Or anything for that matter )
    • Gamecube has an amazing controller, tremendous graphics, and the best hardware in the business. (Blah, blah, blah, Mhz, blah, blah, blah, the Xbox processor is going to be slow compared to a customized PPC G3 with a game-taillored vector unit... think Altivec on crack in Photoshop shootouts... Intel only looks good in integer math... games don't do integer math...) Also it brings Nintendo's franchises, which are the best in the business.

      What does Xbox have? Hype? Newness?

      No, it has a better controller and the best GPU in the business. And Altivec in the Photoshop shootouts? Who cares. You actually have to write SIMD versions of the Intel code to have a fair comparison -- and those comparisons were done on raw MMX code. NOT the same.

      Simon
      • > No, it has a better controller

        I must disagree with this, because while the NGC contoller fits like a glove for me, the XBox controller is like some sort of awkward chunk of plastic, desgined by sadistic Nazi scientists to twist my hands into misshapen claws that would scare children and cause soda pop to go flat.

        Of course, YMMV, but I like fizzy soda pop!
        • And my experience is just the opposite. The GameCube controller feels FAR too small. I end up feeling like I'm hitting several buttons at the same time, but the Xbox controller feels fine to me.

          I didn't like the Xbox controller when I tried it at one of the demo kiosks, but I think that has to do with the stiff plastic they use to attach them to the kiosks -- it forces you to hold it at a funky angle. Once I used the controller not attached to anything, it felt fine. It's rather similar to the Dreamcast controllers.
      • No, it has a better controller

        Wow. That is (seriously) the first time I've heard that.

        It seems the universal bitch about the Xbox is the gigantic, unweildly controller.
        I have both a GC and an XB controller, and IMO, the GC controller beats the XB one easy.

        I have large hands so the XB controller wasn't /painful/, but I can't imagine a kid using that thing without feeling some pain.
        Yes, the GC controller is similar to a PS controller, but the PS controller design is a good one that works equally well with all sizes of hands.
        It seems like MS decided to randomly mix together design concepts from like 5 different controllers, and got, well, just that - a big, mutated frankenstein of a controller.

        C-X C-S

    • Look at the 3 consoles. PS2 wins if you want a quantity of games, period.

      Four.

      Nintendo currently sells two consoles: the GameCube, and the 32-bit Game Boy Advance. (Yes, the GBA is a console. It has twice the power of Super NES, and a third party makes a TV adapter [gamegizmo.com].) The GBA can play over a thousand official games, including games designed for Game Boy and Game Boy Color. (Are there more Game Boy games or more PS1 games?) That doesn't even count the demos and mini-games that any C programmer can develop [gbadev.org] and run on the system with a flash card or $50 link cable.

      Gamecube has an amazing controller

      I agree, but a fellow has to admit that it's a copy of PlayStation's with the L1 button removed, the L2 and R2 buttons made analog (like Dreamcast), and the left pad and stick interchanged.

      Intel only looks good in integer math... games don't do integer math

      Yes, 3D games are mostly floating-point, but 2D games (such as ports of some arcade fighting games) use integer math, and game AI uses heavy integer math.

      Microsoft needs to bundle: a mediocre DVD player, a mediocre video game player

      Microsoft currently sells this for $330 (XBox + DVD dongle).

      a mediocre MP3 jukebox

      Well within the XBox's capability, but Microsoft would rather use the WMA format than what some journalists have termed "Music Piracy 3".

      a mediocre PVR (VCR Replacement)

      So you're proposing an XBox + Ultimate TV combo deck. It'll be a while before Microsoft can get costs down to put the price below $300.

      • I love my GBA. It isn't a substitute. It's awesome, has a monopoly on the handheld market, but it isn't in the same competition as the others. You don't see people deciding between a GBA and GCN, or a GBA and PS2. If you want a handheld, you get a GBA.

        The games rock, its a money-maker for Nintendo, etc. However, it isn't competition for home systems.

        I won't grant that the Gamecube controller is a rip-off of the Playstation's controller.

        To me it is a natural evolution.

        The Playstation's controller was a rip-off of the SNES controller that got extra shoulder pads and LATER analog sticks (after they ripped the idea off Nintendo).

        The Gamecube controller is very clearly derivative of the N64's controller. The left hand options before (D-pad + L, or Analog + Z) have been merged into (D-pad OR Analog) + L with the added bonus of the D-pad and Analog both being usable with an easy switch.

        The button layout on the right is the SNES layout reoriented around the reality of a primary button (A), secondary button (B) and optional extra buttons (X, Y).

        The SNES had four equal buttons, but they were rarely uses as such.

        The Z-button? It's a hack tacked on at the last minute for people worried about losing a button. There it is, developers, please don't use it much.

        Analog shoulder pads, brilliant new invention (like N64's analog stick, SNES's shoulder pads, and NES's D-pad) that everyone will copy.

        C-stick, it's neat. An adaption of the C-buttons into a stick. The C-buttons had the advantage of letting the N64 ACT like a 6-button controller (for things like Street Fighter).

        Nintendo's N64 controller was large and unwieldy but REALLY flexible.

        Games didn't use the flexibilty.

        Gamecube keeps the controls and options and tweaks the layout to be more useful.

        No it isn't 3-controllers in one (theoretically, N64 = Dpad + buttons, Dpad + analog, Analog + buttons), but 1 awesome controller with everything in a clsoe distance.

        Yes the Playstation dual-shock is a nice controller (once you get past the shock of not grabbing the left side and having the primary controller there... drove me crazy on the N64 and hit me again now), but the GCN isn't a ripoff of Sony.

        • However, [a portable system] isn't competition for home systems.

          If you only have one TV and multiple children, it is. The kids will fight over who gets to play on the TV and who has to sit out and play on the GBA.

          I won't grant that the Gamecube controller is a rip-off of the Playstation's controller. To me it is a natural evolution.

          Granted.

          with the added bonus of the D-pad and Analog both being usable with an easy switch.

          This is going to make Tetris Worlds hellish. It'll be quite difficult to make the pieces do what you want because the digital pad is so far away from the palm of the hand that the thumb must be twisted from the normal 45-degree orientation to reach the pad. You may get similar problems to what happens when trying to play Tetris with a SideWinder USB joypad (SWPNP or SW GamePad Pro), such that it's next to impossible to push straight down without also pushing to the side.

          The button layout on the right is the SNES layout reoriented around the reality of a primary button (A), secondary button (B) and optional extra buttons (X, Y).

          Two problems: 1. It's confusing for Super NES veterans, who associate the primary button with the letter B and the upward direction with the letter X and see the Cube's buttons as rotated 90 degrees clockwise, and 2. it's nearly impossible to press B and Y with one thumb on the Cube's controller.

          The SNES had four equal buttons

          According to nintendo developer guidelines (which have been partially leaked over the years), the Super NES had two main buttons (A B) and two secondary buttons (Y X).

          However, the hardware interface treated B and Y as primary and A and X as secondary. The interface was based on the NES Four Score interface, which concatenated the data of players 1 and 3 (each in A B Sel St Up Dn Lt Rt order) onto player 1's port and players 2 and 4 onto player 2's port. Super NES, on the other hand, uses B Y Sel St Up Dn Lt Rt A X L R 0 0 0 0 order, where the 0's apparently have something to do with mouse quadrature (the mouse buttons are sent on A and X; try plugging a mouse into port 2 and using the pad test in kirby's avalanche).

          but they were rarely uses as such.

          Several Super NES games used the buttons as a second directional pad, such as Smash TV, where B fired south, A+X fired northeast, etc. Many PlayStation games (such as Forsaken) also came configured this way. This was made explicit in the design of the Virtual Boy and Nintendo 64 controllers.

          The C-buttons had the advantage of letting the N64 ACT like a 6-button controller

          And the Wishtech Adaptoid (an N64 to USB/HID adapter) even returns button information to Windows as if it were a 6-button.

          (for things like Street Fighter).

          Or in real-time tactical sims such as Starcraft 64.

      • Gamecube has an amazing controller

        I agree, but a fellow has to admit that it's a copy of PlayStation's with the L1 button removed, the L2 and R2 buttons made analog (like Dreamcast), and the left pad and stick interchanged.

        I usually try not to get caught up in these conversations, but this really annoys me. The PlayStation controller is a complete rip off of the SNES controller, invented by Nintendo, with handles and two shoulder buttons on each side instead of one. The d-pad, the four button setup, analog sticks, trigger buttons, all of this was done by Nintendo first. I wouldn't even be surprised if the original PSX contoller had been developed by Nintendo, since they were in on the design of that unit, but I'm not sure.

        In any case, Nintendo has led the way in controller design from the very start. As far as I'm concerned, putting the analog stick in a good spot for the left thumb was a great move, since it's the default in most new games. Also, as far as the analog shoulder buttons go, yes, the DC had those first, but but the GameCube's are so much more comfortable (besides, the N64 was the first to use a trigger, but I'm not sure if it was analog).
    • How come this guy didn't get modded down? It's just a fanboy rant.

  • Simpsons? (Score:3, Funny)

    by ChristianBaekkelund ( 99069 ) <draco AT mit DOT edu> on Wednesday January 16, 2002 @11:55AM (#2848258) Homepage
    Who here started to read the article:

    "Prudential Securities analyst Hans Mosesmann, who covers graphics chip..."

    And thought, "huh?...Hans Moleman?"
    • I can't help thinking of the crossover Film Festival episode (with Jay Sherman/John Lovitz of The Critic) when I think of Hans Moleman.

      "And the Oscar goes to... George C. Scott in 'Football to the Groin'!"
  • ... but there just seems to be a lot of hype about the abilities of these new machines. I'd wager that when released they'll have about 1/3 the proposed functionality. And that goes for anyone trying to produce these boxes, not just MS.

    Remember a few years ago when Sony claimed the PS2 would be a digital hub with all of these same capabilities? Funny how its now been pushed back to the PS3.

    It looks as if the bulk of what will make the MS unit work is going to rely on MS servers on the backend. Considering that they can't even deliver the software for their cable boxes on time I'd be real surprised if they can get this out in the next few years.

    Again, not a MS bash. If Sony, Sega, Panasonic, Scientific Atlanta, et al were making such huge claims I'd be bashing as well.
  • If it is running a web browsing feature, chances are that Microsoft will want to run Internet Explorer on it.

    If so, will we be seeing the same security holes on the console that we see on the PC?

  • ... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by vukv ( 550649 )
    All anti-ms feelings aside, It only makes sense for them to do so.. basically it is ultimatetv+xbox... they will need to add larger hard drive to it and maybe more CPU and ram but they will be able to charge more for it as well... and believe it or not, if they keep the price under 500$-600$, it will even be to the benefit of consumers... why pay for 700$ replaytv, when you can get similar features plus gaming console... only makes sense for them... hell, even I might considered getting one as long as pvr features are good

  • Jolly! (Score:3, Funny)

    by SevenTowers ( 525361 ) on Wednesday January 16, 2002 @12:03PM (#2848304) Homepage
    I can't help but picture the futuristic house: a .net passport to access your house, then you use MS voice recognition to start your X-box controlled blender ("start blender") and it opens the start menu on your tivo. You go to the bathroom and realise that the toilet paper was used up by the MS house maid when the washing machine crashed because some idiot DOSed it. No problem, the X-Box terminal in the bathroom has already sent a message through MSN to MS toilet HQ, and the delivery is on the way.

    Then some script kiddie uses a widely-known-but-little-repaired-exploit (TM) and bluescreens your house. You have to go down to the basement (again!), unplug the internet cable, unplug the power cable, short the solders on your Microsoft House BIOS, reinstall House XP 2005...

    wazoo....
  • It would appear this is all part of a broader change at Microsoft led by Balmer? These kinds of development could be an indication of where PC technology is going in the future and how it will infiltrate other markets.

    Personally, I like this movement for several reasons.

    1. for a PC to become a consumer product, the operating system has to be rock solid
    2. for PC hardware manufacturers it means more markets and therefore possibility lower the cost of production and development
    3. for the consumer, the PC-ness of computers will begin to disappear and become transparent

    If this trend is for real and the drive is more than just fad, it bodes well for computer users. Not only will this mean better stability, but lower prices.

    On the otherhand, microsoft could hit a huge wall and realize how hard it is to build a truly reliable operating system and decide to back out. I doubt that will happen for a couple reasons. Microsoft's goals are to maximize share holder value and please the analysts. In order to do that, they have to diversify and expand the markets to minimize the impact of PC consumer demands. Considering the resources Microsoft has at its' disposal, it just might pull it off.

  • X-Box developers told Microsoft in no uncertain terms in the beginning that they were NOT interested in developing for an entertainment hub. So what remains to be seen is, when MS forces the entertainment hub on them through the backdoor like this, will they bend over and take it, or walk away.

  • Stop with the Swiss Army Knife! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by laetus ( 45131 ) on Wednesday January 16, 2002 @12:16PM (#2848384)
    Sure, this thing might be nice in the living room. But you know what I'm really looking for? A small terminal in several rooms in my house where I can access my email, IM, and the web.

    And I don't want a $1000 PC in each room.

    When is someone going to create a credible web terminal with a small keyboard and an LCD screen that I can hookup to my DSL or Cablemodem and not have to pay MS or Compaq monthly fees for connecting to their network?

    • This is a very good point and something that I have thought about from time to time. People ask the questions "What are they going to do with all that power, no on needs it" (which really frustrates me when I see the near sightedness) and also (what is Linux doing for the desktop/home market). If some company would just get it together and create a Linux server/terminal for the home it could be huge. One bigger computer in the basement, gigabit ethernet over standard cat-5, and cheap terminals (think small flat panel or something) everywhere you want a computer. Everything runs on the basement computer so everyone gets their e-mail, their shared mp3's, their shared internet, and their buisness apps, yet everyone has a computer in their room. If someone would just fuckin' tie it all together, they could really do great things with this polished consumer version of Unix we have been blessed with.

  • Can MS pull the Sony trick on Sony? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by rgold ( 548642 ) on Wednesday January 16, 2002 @12:29PM (#2848444) Homepage
    It should be fun to watch the fireworks if MS comes to market with a homestation product in the fall.

    Sony was the first to try such a thing with it's PS1. It saw that a video game machine with additional functionality might be appeal to the "mass market", mostly adults without children who hadn'y been interested in a home console until that point. The PS1 played audio CD's and was thought of by sony as a component of the Sony "Home entertainment" vision and not as a dedicated game machine.

    With that approach, the PS1 conquered the mass market. It took less than two years for the ps1 to penetrate 10% of American homes. By comparison, it took color TV 13 years, 11 for the VCR and 6 for audio CDs.

    Now Microsoft is trying to do the same thing with a different set of functionality. Seems like a good idea, but it's a very different world now.

    Game consoles are no longer just a niche. 32% of US homes have one sort of console or another. Sony is by far the market leader, and the PS2 is backwards compatable with a huge PS1 base. Whats more, it also plays DVDs. Microsoft will have to price their homestation offering well over the PS2 (or suffer huge losses). It will be interesting to see if consumers are interested in the functionality for the price.

    Meanwhile, Nintendo has stayed true to it's fmaily oriented niche and remains by far the most profitable of the players from a pure video game approach. And while all activity is happening in the "Home Entertainment" world, Nintendo is virtually unchallnged on the handheld side with its gameboy and gameboy advance. GBA is projected to become a 500 million dollar business this year!

    If I had to choose right now, I'd rather be Nintendo...

    -rg

  • Let me get this straight... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by CrazyBrett ( 233858 ) on Wednesday January 16, 2002 @12:33PM (#2848463)
    So they're introducing an all-in-one device that will allow you to:

    1. Play games
    2. Play DVDs
    3. Watch TV
    4. Surf the web
    5. Write email

    Gee, that sounds an awful lot like my computer!

    So why do they bother? First and foremost, because this is their opportunity to control the one thing they've been unable to get so far: the hardware. Now they will finally be able to implement their digital rights infringement, etc, without fear of pushing the user away (after all, who in their right mind would give up using a piece of hardware after they paid $1000+ for it).

    There's more to this scheme, however. Take a closer look at the list of activities shown above. Notice the absence of any kind of development, programming, hacking, etc. The long term goal of this strategy is to "phase out" these kinds of activities, because they are dangerous to the Microsoft monopoly. Eventually, they want everyone's recreational activities to be limited to the 5 items listed above (give or take a few).

    Impossible, you say? Not with a little careful manipulation of the market. I'd estimate that 90% of the PC market these days are our beloved Joe Sixpacks, who simply want to do items 1-5, nothing more. Instead of trying to sell general purpose hardware and then customize it with the software (OS), they will start selling customized hardware, which will have only 10% less market share than PCs. With a "good" marketing campaign (which we know MS is capable of), they can strike a huge blow to the general purpose PC business, which will either drive it out of existence, or drive prices way up. Either of these outcomes will make PCs virtually inaccessible to consumers. Over the long term, consumers will lose interest in hacking/development. It might take an entire generation, but it will happen.

    Thanks for tuning in.
    • .. the more consumers will slip through your fingers. And MS knows this, they aren't that dumb.

      If nothing else, MS trying to "strike a huge blow to the general purpose PC business, which will either drive it out of existence, or drive prices way up will sure increase sales of apple machines. And they know this.

      Over the long term, consumers will lose interest in hacking/development. It might take an entire generation, but it will happen.

      If MS's monolopy was absolute, you'd be right. But it isn't. They know this. They will not introduce features that virtually hand market share to thier competitors.

    • "Over the long term, consumers will lose interest in hacking/development. It might take an entire generation, but it will happen."

      And the problem with this is?...

      Joe Sixpack doesn't want to hack. He doesn't want set up users with less permissions than him. He doesn't want to decode the assembly instructions used to craft a window in X. He doesn't want to waste time learning how to defrag or fsck a hard drive.

      He wants to do those 5 things, and he isn't interested in having to take apart a device to do it. No other consumer device *in the world* is anything like a PC. There's a reason why they're so darn hard to "make easier" -- they're *too* configurable.

      So Microsoft makes an all-purpose box that needs little maintenance, and Dell, Gateway, IBM, and Compaq/HP follow suit. Big deal. There will still be computers for us "regular hackers". They will be just as configurable: like Hot Rods versus your standard Buick. We, as techies, shouldn't *force* our culture onto everyone else (for some reason, we feel like we have a right to).

      • And the problem with this is?...

        My father could easily be classified as Joe Sixpack in this context. (He has a ham radio licence and builds model airplanes, but never got into computers.)

        If we'd had an unhackable computer-like device, my life would be really different, instead we had a Vic-20 and an Apple IIe.
  • Hey, maybe this time they can make some good controllers that fit the human hand.
  • I can't help thinking about Jon Katz's artice about iMacs yesterday. I think his point was that Apple should abandon their strategy of trying to create a digital hub for entertainment, and instead be more like Microsoft? Hmmmmm....
  • I'd like a peripheral that plugs into the X-Box and serves up a piping hot loaf after a hard game of Halo. If Microsoft can make a paperclip talk, they can certainly make a game box that produces fresh baked goods.
  • The Xbox has dollar bill slot like you find on ATMs.
    Except this one only takes dollars in.
    In this way MS can dispense with all the hoopla about
    supporting this or that capability and get to the point
    of what the Xbox is really about!

  • The technology behind a PVR isn't that complicated- a hard drive, a tuner, and MPEG encoder / decoder, video out, channel listings, etc... But getting one that really works well for the user requires quite a bit of subtle work -- if you've ever used a Tivo, you can appreciate the amount of thought and work that went into the software in the unit.

    Fact is, a lot of "convergence" vendors are going to be coming out with these boxes (like the MoxieMedia Center) that not only are a PVR but are going to try to do a bunch of things. I'm not bashing Moxie in particular (I've never used one) but I have a hard time believing that a company without MS's resources is going to be able to spend much time getting the user experience right for each of the functions.

    I hope Tivo and / or SonicBlue are smart and licensing their software technologies all over the place, because otherwise, we're going to be subjected to a bunch of exciting sounding boxes that really disappoint when you turn them on and try to use them.
  • Who needs Dell, Compaq and IBM? Microsoft is about to cut them out of the deal completely. Why not just sell your own computer?

    The question is, how far will MS take their 'hardware lust'? how close to being Apple will they get before the afore mentioned giants turn on them?

    Rule #1 in business: Dont compete with your own customers.

  • Heya, all complaints about MS being a "monopoly' would be eliminated if instead of selling PCs they just sold these babies. After all no-one can bitch at you if it is your OS and your browser running on your 'gaming console'. Hehe. Yah right. ^_^

    Remember that 'hardware interface standad' thingy that /. reported on last week or so that was MS's idea? Imagine that implemented into this next system;

    I am sure that it will come out on the PC too.

    Heck add some Mac support and. . . . ah, you see where I am going with this? MS would dominate THREE platforms minimum and it would THEN have the power to leverage OTHER platform manufacturers into making their systems complient with Microsofts systems(sounds like a good thing? Finaly some game support in *nix? Hold on. . . ) ;

    Which would likely also include some sort of software that has to be licenced from Microsoft on some sort of per computer (or user, heh) basis.

    Imagine M$ collecting royalites from _ALL_ computer users!

    Oh yah, and imagine the PR campaign that would make you all /GLAD/ to pay them.

    Don't believe me? Just look how far the anti-ms stance has changed even within /. itself. Hell a good part of the rest of the net is decidedly pro-ms, bleh.

    The beast shall have you yet!

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