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Games Entertainment

Pay to Play II - Project Entropia 225

Posted by michael from the delta-s dept.
Gonzago writes: "God knows how many hours I spent mining or chopping down trees while playing Ultima Online. The dedication (spelled a-d-d-i-c-t-i-o-n) I had to that game would have made me some serious cash if I applied it to a real life job. Now I can have my cake and eat it too! At least that's what the people behind Project Entropia would have me believe. Not only does the premise behind the game look cool, but players will trade amongst one another with real money. Anyone want to buy some armor?" There's an article on CNN which briefly covers the game's premise: pay the company for all the equipment you need in-game, and it all slowly degrades - Entropia, get it?
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Pay to Play II - Project Entropia More

Pay to Play II - Project Entropia

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  • Recursion? (Score:4, Funny)

    by keiferb ( 267153 ) on Saturday January 26, 2002 @07:55PM (#2907778) Homepage
    So, you basically give up real life to become a player in this game, which would eventually evolve to the point where you could buy a game (in the game) that would become your new life...

    • Re:Recursion? (Score:1, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Welcome to The Matrix.
    • Better copyright it now! Haha

    • Project Extropia? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by cosmosis ( 221542 )
      I think it would be more appropriate and certainly more lucrative if the game and its underpinning were based on accelerating growth and profit. In other words is based on how the world really works. Why would anyone want to play a game where the end result was the majority looses? That's not capitalism, thats gambling - pure and simple.

      • I came to a similar conclusion, which is why I gave up beta testing the game. The idea simply isn't going to make a fun game. It seems to be designed to constantly suck money out of your pockets if you want to have any fun with it. Especially if you aren't willing to dedicate the vast majority of your spare (and perhaps not so spare) time to the game.

    • Re:Recursion? (Score:2, Informative)

      by sllort ( 442574 )
      So, you basically give up real life to become a player in this game, which would eventually evolve to the point where you could buy a game (in the game) that would become your new life...

      Ya, that was a great movie. Existenz [imdb.com], right? I admit that it's hard to get past that opening quote though: "Jennifer Jason Leigh stars as a computer programmer".

      She actually did remarkably well, if you ask me.

  • Oops (Score:3, Informative)

    by sllort ( 442574 ) on Saturday January 26, 2002 @07:57PM (#2907783) Homepage Journal
    A redundant article, so I get to make a redundant post.

    Selling virtual items in-game was pioneered by this text based MUD [medievia.com], which is financed entirely by sales of virtual items to players.

    And since we're talking about "virtual addiction", take a look at their MUD Addiction Page [medievia.com]. Now substitute the word "play" for the words "get high", and read it again. Scary, isn't it?

    • Re:Oops (Score:2, Insightful)

      by iansmith ( 444117 )
      What is diffrent about this game, is unlike all the other online pay RPG's this one seems to encourage people to use real money, instead og closing accounts and banning people for selling items on eBay.

      As far as I can tell, all the other RPG's out there get there resources from pure virtual space. As more players join, more 'stuff' gets made available. Tying it to real money coming in is interesting.. I'd join just to watch how it all unfolds.

    • Re:Oops (Score:3, Informative)

      by alansz ( 142137 )
      And by so doing, Medievia has been accused of violating the license of the Dikumud source code on which it is (by admission of its creator as well as by inspection of source code [ntlworld.com]) drived, which prohibits any commercial use.

      Of course, this new Entropia project gets to write their own license, assuming they're not basing their code on one of the many fine free mud codebases (where your equipment might degrade through use, but not due to economic externalities!)

      • Re:Oops (Score:2, Interesting)

        by sllort ( 442574 )
        Ya, Medievia is based on Diku. I haven't been there in.. 3 years now? But back when I was there they were in the process of doing a token "rename" job on all of the famous map structures, monsters, etc. in the game that came from Diku. Pretty funny.

        It's IP theft, plain and simple. They've tried to remove all Diku code by reverse engineering it from scratch, and after 10 years, they've nearly succeeded. Make of that what you will.

    • Re:Oops (Score:3, Informative)

      by nomadic ( 141991 )
      Selling virtual items in-game was pioneered by this text based MUD [medievia.com], which is financed entirely by sales of virtual items to players.

      They've been criticized for years for that policy; they're based on DikuMUD code, which is a pretty open license. You're just not supposed to remove the original authors credits from the login screen, or charge money for playing the MUD. Medievia did both.

      The whole thing is sort of like the Magic card game in my mind; rather than give everyone an equal playing field, they let those with more money buy their way to success.

      Who wants to bet the frequency of good equipment appearing in the game naturally will be reduced if their profits slip...
      • So why hasn't anyone filed suit against Medievia to make them comply with the license of the Diku source?
        • Because it would cost a lot of money and time, and since they're not losing any actual money from Medievia's misuse of the license, they couldn't sue for damages. Someone a few comments up pointed to an informative page on the subject. [ntlworld.com]
          • ...they're not losing any actual money from Medievia's misuse of the license...


            Interesting. Can one successfully sue someone for violating a license even if that individual hasn't suffered a monetary loss?

            • If you're not following the terms of the license, you're violating copyright. That has criminal penalties as well as civil.
      • The whole thing is sort of like the Magic card game in my mind; rather than give everyone an equal playing field, they let those with more money buy their way to success.

        Which is why there were sealed deck tournaments. After paying the signup fee(same for all players regardless of skill obviously), all players would recieve a starter deck and some booster packs. They would open them, then pass those to another person(so no one could cheat by replacing the booster pack with their own cards). Then they would design a deck with the cards given to them and play in the tournament with that deck(a certain number of lands would be given to those people who needed them).
    • That post was not redundant! It was relevent and informative, and (worst of all) interesting! You call yourself a troll? For shame!
    • That sucks, I followed the link and Medieva looked like a fun diversion in the wake of FFX, but I won't play if the way to get ahead is to send money. I was never a big MUD-er but I enjoy the occasional "lost weekend" or two. Wish I could find a kick ass active MUD, but whenever I search around I usually find ones that don't hold my attention.
  • that the hardcore RPG'ers are either so stupid or addicted that they'll crank out the cash to feed their habit.

  • And Prostitutes? (Score:5, Funny)

    by Thakandar2 ( 260848 ) on Saturday January 26, 2002 @08:01PM (#2907795)
    This could work two ways for me:

    With the conversion being 10:1, and assuming the currencies don't fluctuate that means time with a prostitute will actually be attainable for me on a regular basis! Although, I don't know if I like the idea of her pimp DoS'ing me when I try to run off...

  • Alms for an ex-leper? (Score:5, Informative)

    by TotallyUseless ( 157895 ) <totNO@SPAMmac.com> on Saturday January 26, 2002 @08:01PM (#2907796) Homepage Journal
    the article mentions that people who dont wish to give money to the game will still be able to play. I wonder if this means there will be a whole society of non paying gamers wandering the streets of the game, begging for handouts, thieving gold when they can to save up for a tunic...
  • Sounds like a perfect plan. Take advantage of humans' need for instant gratification (made possible by the Internet), and humans' addiction (made possible by computer games). Only this time, we're playing for keeps (real $).

  • only problem with this. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Restil ( 31903 ) on Saturday January 26, 2002 @08:02PM (#2907801) Homepage
    They better make DAMN sure that nobody's cheating. It was bad enough when cheating ran rampant in games like Ultima Online, where in a few days some players were able to build up their characters and wealth when other players had to spend months to accomplish the same goals legitimately.

    And just think about the PK'ing that will be going on. It used to be that people PK'ed because it gave them an ego boost. Now it can almost be equated to a real life mugging.

    And in UO, items would mysteriously disappear. Close up your house one day and everything's there, then a server crash, come back in, its all gone. When frustrating things like this happen in a game where everything is virtual, about the most I can expect is to quit and deprive them of their $10 a month. But if I invested serious money in such a project and suddenly its all gone, that could be a serious problem.

    To be ultimately viable, the company, however it works, has to somehow produce something, in such a way that they end up with more worth than what was put into it. I don't see this happening really, and at some point, when things peak out, there will be a falloff of revenue and things will slowly lose value and degrade.

    However, if players can earn in-game dollars by completely real world tasks, then this could ultimately be a really cool way to offset employees. Instead of hiring employees, you have people play your game, and do your work in exchange for the privilage of playing. Think of all the source code projects you could crank out by gamers trying to one-up their in-game adversaries. There might be some potential here.

    -Restil

    • 2 more problems - taxes and micro payments (Score:1, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Better set up shop in a state without sales tax, otherwise every transaction will need an instate/nonresident classification and collection. Hiring CPAs aren't trivial or cheap, and you'll still need them for the other state and fed taxes.

      And you're collecting small payments mucho times. Think quarters for the parking meters, the populace hates micro payments.

  • I don't know... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by jgerman ( 106518 ) on Saturday January 26, 2002 @08:02PM (#2907803)
    ...whether I think that this is stupid and won't fly or cool, and I want to play, I can't definitely see how it would be cool to actually have a small chance of getting a monetary return on the time I spent paying a game instead of waving bye-bye to monthly fees. I wonder though, how imbalanced the game will be if you spent A LOT of money on stuff. Granted thsi is the way the real world works too, so does it then become less of a game and more like real life?

  • Cheating (Score:2, Redundant)

    by Mac Nazgul ( 196332 )
    Cheating could now become a new organized crime facet- Hacking games to sell virtual items!

    • Re:Cheating (Score:1, Informative)

      by littleRedFriend ( 456491 )
      From this interview [canadagaming.com]
      with on of the developers.

      Since players will be able to purchase items, how will cheating be dealt with, since it could involve real money?

      We will do everything in our power to prevent cheating in Project Entropia. We have already constructed a system to prevent this. In the case of somebody still being able to cheat, we will close their account and engage legal proceedings against these persons in real life.

    • Re:Cheating (Score:2, Interesting)

      by blowhole ( 155935 )
      Hacking games to sell virtual items!

      Isn't that what software pirating already is?
  • of course the real question is will people be actually able to play without anything more than the initial investment. I would definatly play if I could get by with ~$20 at the start and keep going from there.

    Are they going to charge for the game itself?

  • they make money how? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by gmerideth ( 107286 )
    free to play, no monthly access, no charge to get the software.

    and they plan on making money on this how?

    you invest $100 bucks in the game and then after one month they go bankrupt.

    where is the profit plan in this?
    • it sounds like if you want to walk around with anything in the game besides your virtual birthday suit, you have to pony up the dough. people will be paying real life $ for armor, swords, party hats, etc
    • Did you read the article at all?

      Everything a player wants can be purchased from MindArk

      I assume they will make money from people buying that new 3l33t piece of armour..

      I know if I was playing it tho, that i would rather spend a few hours killing stuff rather than spending hard cash on stuff.

  • Humor - Didn't "Casino" do this with CHIPS? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Seth Finkelstein ( 90154 ) on Saturday January 26, 2002 @08:07PM (#2907819) Homepage Journal
    http://www.project-entropia.com/info/default.asp?t opic=info [project-entropia.com] says:
    Project Entropia will have a real economy system that allows you as a user to exchange real life money into PED (Project Entropia Dollars) and then back into a real currency again.
    Hmm, haven't I heard of something like this before? That is, places called something like Project Casino, which allows me as customer to exchange real life money into CHIPS (Cryptic High Intelligence Purchasing Symbols), use them in contests with random elements and against other players, like POKER (Popular Open Kard Environment Reaction), and then back into a real currency again? (assuming I have any left ...)

    But the house always wins ...

    Sig: What Happened To The Censorware Project (censorware.org) [sethf.com]

  • Unbalanced game play (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Papa Legba ( 192550 ) on Saturday January 26, 2002 @08:11PM (#2907829)
    One of the reasons that many players of games have frowned on these practices in the past is that most of the time people with the cash to throw around like this are a$$Holes. Nothing makes a player madder than to have his carefully crafted player, who he has lovingly worked on for months, trashed because some 14 year old has a larger allowance than the gamers paycheck and bought a powerfull character just to kill other characters.

    These kind of personalities have kept out of games like this traditionally because they did not have the personality and patience to develop a character of sufficient power to be a threat to other players. With this system it just comes down to a matter of cash, and those type of people alwasy seem to have cash.

    My prediction is that this game will fail not based on game play but on the fact that most players will give up on it quickly as they become frustrated by the less socially adapted version of script kiddies that are let loose on them. While high cash players will make the game look good, it will still take 100,000 paying monthly customers. If a small percentage drive the rest off because of the type of people they are, and because they are to powerfull to be ignored, then the whole system will collapse.

    • My prediction is that certain weapons/armor will not be usable until you have reached a certain experience level. So even if L33TH4X0r6969 has a million virtual dollars, he won't be able to spend it on anything meaningful to his character.

    • Experience Points (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Brian Stretch ( 5304 ) on Saturday January 26, 2002 @08:59PM (#2907961)
      A way to restore balance: you may be able to buy cool toys, but you won't have the experience points to use them with 100% effectiveness.

      Well, it's not perfect, but the idea of a kiddie blindly firing his shiny new BFG-9000 amuses me...

      I'd also make the really cool toys *really* expensive. Want that BFG? $100, please. Top-of-the-line armor? Another $75. Don't price things linearly. Well, maybe that's a bit much, but you get the idea.

      I'll continue avoiding MMTSs (Massive Multiplayer Time Sinks) regardless...
    • I agree with the parent. The last thing I want to do is create a world (built in the name of some sort of greater realism) that favours script kiddies and the itinerant rich. Yipeee. I make a pile of cash in real life, but abusing other players in a game with it (even if in self-defense) is a ridiculous waste of my money, my time, and (in a sense) my human dignity.

      The rich have power in real life, but what keeps people from going around killing people in masses? (Answer: sometimes they do, but I'm not interested in Rwanda:MMORPG).

      The reasons are manifold. One reaon is that all of us are fundamentally vulnerable. We all have to sleep, eat, and sometimes trust other people. Plenty of places for you to get dry-gulched and brought low if you're some sort of super dude killer badass.

      Another reason is that modern weapons make even the peons dangerous. You're a super SF dude who knows Chop Sockey and can fire a Bushmaster one-handed? Jee.... I'm just a dork with a .22 pistol, but if I shoot you in the eye, you're done.

      Another reason is that communities and laws exist. If you were to structure a game with laws and a justice system and you had people paid to enforce laws against murder, arson, looting, robbery etc (police, bounty hunters, the army), then you'd end up with a more "real" environment. You'd end up with an environment where thinking, hard work, and innovation paid off. Rather than cheesiness, gamerism, and maybe some cheatbots.

      When the natural checks and balances that exist in our own world (the mortality of normal humans, the legal and institutional frameworks) are exempted while other parts of the game world start to approach reality, you get an odd and (to my mind) unfun imbalance.

      On the old Zanzibar MUD, I recall the Dark Reavers having a guild. It had a community idea where if anyone from another guild PK'd one Reaver, they got payback from the others. Turns out one of the best thieves in the game PK'd my buddy's low level Reaver. A month later, he ran into a high level Reaver somewhere who mentioned said high level thief had "got his" in payback. this kind of "gang" based situation can be one effective check on PKing.

      Anyway, I certainly won't be participating in a scheme designed to print money for the company who provides the service (pay close attention, Mr. Gates). I did that once (Wallets of the Coast took far too much of my money) and it was no fun then and (like sour milk put back in the fridge) isn't likely to be any better now.....

  • playing this game for income (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Gavitron_zero ( 544106 ) on Saturday January 26, 2002 @08:24PM (#2907861)
    2 ideas...

    1. If this game caught on, it may be possible to earn an actual income from this game...

    2. If you were earning an income from this game, how would you report it on your income tax?

    • If this game caught on, it may be possible to earn an actual income from this game...
      People have been doing just that with "black market" Everquest sales for quite a while now.
      If you were earning an income from this game, how would you report it on your income tax?
      Good question. Another one is: If I, in California, sell you, in France, a suit of armor (in Entropialand or whatever), which is stored on a server in Canada, who owes sales tax to which government?

    • Allready possible (Score:2, Interesting)

      by martissimo ( 515886 )
      1. If this game caught on, it may be possible to earn an actual income from this game...

      It is *allready* possible, the value for credits in Everquest (credits==currency in the Everquest economy) on Ebay, is better than the value of many third world countries.

      I personally know a few people who have been able to make several thousands of dollars a month off "farming" items in game. Of course if they actually calculated how much time they spent doing it (far more than a typical 8 hour day at an office), it wouldn't seem all that special to the typical middle class American...but to someone in a economically challenged area or country, it could feasibly be a serious windfall to them!

  • I've been following this for some time (Score:5, Informative)

    by xX_sticky_Xx ( 526967 ) on Saturday January 26, 2002 @08:27PM (#2907871) Homepage Journal
    I signed up for beta testing many months ago in hopes of trying it out. I wasn't accepted into any of the pools but still held out hope of a public beta.

    A couple of months back I received an email from the beta mailing list stating that they were going public with a "commercial beta test". This test would entail everyone paying in $10 to help test the ability of their servers to handle the financial transactions. This sounded quite contrary to their statements that there would be no need to put any money into the system. Here's a copy of the email:

    Dear Sir/ Madam You have previously registered your interest to be a Beta tester for Project Entropia. MindArk is now preparing to start the commercial trial phase. An expanded panel of users will be selected to participate in the trials. Those are in the addition to the users that are already in the Beta phase II.

    The commercial trial phase will include many of the planned features of the finished product. One of which is the financial system that has been creating ripple effects far beyond the MMORPG market. This financial system will be designed around real money exchanged into a virtual currency. Giving users a chance of actually make real money while inside the Project Entropia Virtual Universe.

    Project Entropia will be free to obtain and use, only your connection fee to the Internet will cost you anything, there will be no monthly fees payable to MindArk. The fact that real money will be an issue in Project Entropia requires us to test this system to its full extent. This is why we are searching for users who are willing to insert small amounts of money in exchange for the chance to make much more.

    In addition to the funds inserted into Project Entropia, MindArk will add funds to the Virtual World; an excess of 100.000 USD will be available for users to claim inside Project Entropia. This is a first in history; you can actually make a small fortune and at the same time be one of the first to explore Project Entropia.

    The transfers are necessary for testing mass transaction flows through the system servers. And will help us track funds through the entire system, this is necessary to ensure that the system is fully functional when we head into the open phase. To achieve this, we elect to create a system where an avid user stands a fairly good chance of making a small fortune by testing this product.

    Note that the transfer requirements does not constitute a change of the original specifications, Project Entropia will be free to obtain and use, according to everything that has been stated previously, nothing has changed on that point. This fee is only imposed to test the systems handling real money transactions. Without these tests we would have no chance of providing the service of real money transfers safely.

    If you are interested in participating in these trials, you have to follow the link below. You will not be required to pay anything at this point. You only have to agree to the rules stated for a commercial trial participation. http://www.project-entropia.com/phase3/firstpage.a sp

    Kind Regards.

    Erik Johnels Mindark AB

    Note that they state in the email that they aren't going back on their word; this deposit is merely part of a test to see if their servers can handle the transactions.

    After getting my hopes dashed by another MMORPG in the making (DAWN, which turned out to be complete vaporware) I was sceptical about the reality of Project Entropia...more so after they asked for money to participate in a beta. I went to their IRC channel to see if I could find anything out about previous betas, but all beta testers must abide by a strict non-disclosure policy which even prohibits them from saying they're in the beta (sounds a little too convenient). A lot of the talk in IRC was people planning their Project Entropia pyramid schemes.

    Something tells me that this is simply a petty scam.
    • This is why we are searching for users who are willing to insert small amounts of money in exchange for the chance to make much more.

      It seems to me that this will count as a "game of chance" (and rightly so) with the consequence that it will be either completely illegal or requiring special licenses in many countries.

    • Worthless trivia. (Score:2, Insightful)

      by eddy ( 18759 )

      Something tells me that this is simply a petty scam.

      Well, I've been to their offices. I applied for a job as a programmer there -- which I was then offered (first assignment; work on the GUI) -- but turned down because I felt that it was way too uncertain (aka 'doomed').

      So, I can confirm that the game does indeed exist, or at least, that a game was being developed about a year ago. :-)

      Anyway, the irony is that the offer I took instead lead to me being laid off just recently, so according to Murhpy's Law I guess P:Entropia will go on to be very successful, and I will sit here like a bitter man wondering, why oh why didn't I go there instead.

      • Heh. The game will crash and burn. Most likely the end will involve lawsuits too. The whole idea behind the game seems half-baked.

        • The game will crash and burn.

          Yeah, that'd be my guess too. It's just one big exploit waiting to happen.

          I remember before Diablo 2 was released, when the fanboys in the newsgroups would proclaim how the vault characters would mean the end of cheating(TM>).

          Yeah, that brought me a good chuckle, right there.

    • You could put in 10$, play the beta, then take out those 10$ again. You don't have to buy anything. If you die your money stays. And you may find money in the game. I wouldn't complain...

      I just hope it's not required in the final version to put in money since that would stop many players from playing.
    • I went to their IRC channel to see if I could find anything out about previous betas, but all beta testers must abide by a strict non-disclosure policy which even prohibits them from saying they're in the beta (sounds a little too convenient) Strict NDAs are absolutely common in closed beta tests. I'm currently beta-testing CS 1.4 / valve's steam technology and by merely saying this in violation of a NDA I signed (or at least click-accepted).

  • Going broke anyone? (Score:1, Redundant)

    by mizhi ( 186984 )
    So addicted RPGers can spend their money online and play hookey from work all in an effort to see which one goes broke the fastest?

    Utilities: "For failing to pay your bill, we're cutting the power to your house now."
    RPGer: "But I've sent in 1000 PEDs each month!"
    <lights go out>

  • Virtual lock-in? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Kjella ( 173770 ) on Saturday January 26, 2002 @08:28PM (#2907874) Homepage
    Is it just me or does this leave the game designers very much in control of the cash flow? I'm guessing we'll see:

    -Extremely expensive stuff that decays rapidly but that the most addicted "must" have.
    -Pushing the prices to the very limit of what people are willing to pay, we're talking monopoly here.
    -Extremely little stuff you'll get any real money for (Bronze sword 10 PED, Giant-über-leet sword of Doom 10000 PED? Don't think so. prices will have to be much more uniform.)

    Personally I don't like the idea of a company setting the value of the equipment. It's virtual world communism (all is controlled by the "state", in this case the company running the world), and I don't think it'll fly.

    Kjella
    • Is it just me or does this leave the game designers very much in control of the cash flow?

      Where they've always wanted to be, I suppose.

      Sheesh, whatever happened to making a game and selling it? $17 billion/year wasn't enough I guess.

      sigh...
    • (all is controlled by the "state", in this case the company running the world)

      Uh, it said quite clearly in the CNN article that players would be free to sell items among each other. Doesn't quite sound like everything is controlled by the "state".
    • They could just release a limited number of Giant-über-leet swords of Doom and have them go to the highest bidder.
  • As far as I can tell (I hate poorly designed websites), the company doesn't specifically allow Joe Luser to sell his wares on eBay. I wouldn't expect them to act any differently than Verant, and considering their business model, to be more aggressive about it (if possible). What it does do, is let Joe Luser spend his credit limit to get fakeBux(tm) to buy his in-game eq that degrades over time. Please note that nowhere does it say that real money is anything but a one-way transaction to the company. Great model for the company running the game, by the way.

    However, what about game balance? I suppose trying to have balance in a MMORPG is a very tricky subject, but come on! It's bad enough when it's unsanctioned, cuts down on the number of people willing to buy and sell in real life. But when the game specifically allows buying eq with real money? Yeesh. Perhaps it will be fun for a little while...

    And what happens when mommy find out that little Timmy's been using her Gold Card? (Bad Timmy, Bad!)
  • ebay doesn't sell EverQuest characters any more because Verant complained, but prior to that you could make some decent pocket money playing EQ. 1 plat in the game was worth about 1 US cent, IIRC. My roomate sold a character with a lot of good equipment for about $1000.

    You can still sell items and game cash in several other games like Diablo 2 and Dark Age of Camelot. I guess the innovation in Entropy is that the monetary conversion is actually sponsored by the company, but practically this is nothing new.

  • I wouldn't play (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Muggins the Mad ( 27719 ) on Saturday January 26, 2002 @08:45PM (#2907929)
    One of the main reasons I play computer games is to get away from this crap world where those who start rich get everything and the poor have to struggle to survive.

    Why would I play a game that was just the same?

    I'm happy to pay to play online games, but I really don't see how a game where the amount of money you have IRL directly affects your status in play could possibly be fun.

    - Muggins the Mad

  • Laibility (Score:4, Insightful)

    by EvlG ( 24576 ) on Saturday January 26, 2002 @08:54PM (#2907953)
    This seems like a HUGE liability. What happens when bugs in the game allow players to steal money? Or when someone DoS' the servers, and people can't play for days, or weeks? Many players would be quite angry that their personal finances would be interruped, perhaps even destroyed.

    Of course it is not a good idea to rely on the game for your income, but there will be people that will do this, and they will complain loudly when problems arise.

    I don't see how any lawyer would allow this - the liability is too great.
  • -InfoBot(drop@gw01.outer.se.gamenet)- Welcome to the official Project Entropia
    channel! If you need help, talk to one of the operators that is
    present.
    -InfoBot(drop@gw01.outer.se.gamenet)- Beta testers, please mind the NDA, no
    beta talk in this channel.
    <Quazion> Hello, after reading the website and not finding the System
    requirements, i figure lets have a look on there IRC server.
    <Quazion> anyone who can tell me anything on the sys requirements ?
    <Jem|SoF> there are none set up
    <Quazion> And why i am asking this is cause i want to know on which OS
    platforms it will run.
    <Jem|SoF> just tell what kind you have when you sign up for beta
    <Quazion> I am not giving away my personal information if i dont even know if
    it will run on my computer.
    <Jem|SoF> hang on I"m on phone
    <Fiyz> thats your problem quazion
    <E_J|MA> Windows
    <Jem|SoF> WOOHOO
    <Jem|SoF> HI
    <Jem|SoF> eJ
    <Fiyz> lol e_j spoke his short words
    <Fiyz> hes AWAY now jem
    <Quazion> Fiys, isnt it normal to tell upfront, and it isnt my problem its
    just one less user i guess.
    <E_J|MA|AWAY> sortof...
    [Users(#project-entropia:30)]
    [ Quazion ] [ Feroce ] [ Jem|SoF ] [ Supadude|S] [ Max-Damage]
    [ AlornenAFK] [ haywire ] [ Gonzago|ED] [ Azur ] [ Viper|FWR ]
    [ Fiyz ] [ Lawryus|UP] [ Riposte ] [ TooBorg|So] [ AzHippy|al]
    [ Rebellion ] [ vip ] [ Zanuff ] [ balu ] [ AwayELLER ]
    [ coin|MA|aw] [@BARADDA|MA] [ Small ] [ CryHavok ] [@bornie|MA ]
    [@E_J|MA|AWA] [ kevinvee ] [@DROK|MA|aw] [@InfoBot ] [@ChanServ ]
    <Fiyz> uh you saying its not normal to tell your comp info for a beta sign up?
    <Quazion> E_J|MA|AWAY you can confirm windows only ?
    <Jem|SoF> he did
    <Quazion> just double checking ;)
    <E_J|MA|AWAY> At first windows only.
    <Fiyz> how bout Lindows?
    <Jem|SoF> yes you do tell what kind of computer you have
    <E_J|MA|AWAY> we ARE looking at porting it to LINUX. but that is WAY down the
    road.
    <Quazion> E_J|MA|AWAY thanks for the information.
    <E_J|MA|AWAY> NP
    <Quazion> And yes i am running Linux :)
    <Fiyz> you should make it for Lindows ;)
    <Jem|SoF> HI E_J

  • bah (Score:5, Funny)

    by nomadic ( 141991 ) <`nomadicworld' `at' `gmail.com'> on Saturday January 26, 2002 @09:16PM (#2907991) Homepage
    God knows how many hours I spent mining or chopping down trees while playing Ultima Online.

    That's nothing; I had a 9-to-5 job driving a forklift on Shenmue [shenmue.com]. I even had to freaking COMMUTE. Only people who've finished this game will understand the flashbacks I get when I see a forklift irl...
  • Wonder if I can cheat and make a little cash?

    Seriously, how many are going to think the same?
  • I hope this doesn't happen with any new versions of The Sims. I'd hate to spend my hard earned [real] cash on a new [fake] stove, have a damn Sim burn my [fake] house down, then me be short on rent for my [real] apartment. Ugh! At least I have some [fake] friends, maybe I can crash over at their place?
  • already outstrip real ones. This article [com.com] claims that Everquests ( a similar MMORPG ) platinum pieces are wort more than the Yen - people have been playing EQ for years in order to make a living. At one point I heard someone was making about $10,000 per month ( that is extream though ). However EQ does NOT tie its virtual economy to the real world which is why PE is different and exciting.

    Personally I cant wait to get a job as a gnome slayer in some virtual world *chuckle*. Beats my current bug slaying job any day.
    • Sure, a pp is worth more than a yen, especially on newer servers. However, that doesn't make the economy of everquest more powerful than that of japan.
      I've seen this general statement before, and its pretty meaningless. If some item has value, it is probably larger than the base currency of some country. It only really becomes interesting if there are like a trillion platinum in existence, in which case the total value of platinums would be on the order of magnitude of that of a country.
      As it stands, the current market for everquest stuff is probably at most on the order of hundreds of thousands each year. That is puny when compared to a country.
      K-Mart might be able to print gift certificates worth $50, but that doesn't make them fifty times more powerful economically than the US.
      (/rant)
  • An important question begs to be asked: Can I rob these said banks Bonnie & Clyde style?
  • Uhhh.. following the URLs leading to their site is an altogether unpleasant experience. The site is ultra commercial in the way that it tries to sell me something, however unclear what that "something" actually is. All links open up a new browser window .... which gives a sorta porno site aura. Maybe they want to sell me a subscription to their super-game-a-4d-experience-newsletter ... or maybe it's something else. And finally ... with 4-5 browser windows and yet no meat, they want me to _login_/create an accout. I say go away. Any game manufacturerer with such a stiff attitude on the site are bound to produce a boring game ... in the lon run.

  • So basically... (Score:3, Funny)

    by NoMoreNicksLeft ( 516230 ) <john.oyler@ c o m c a st.net> on Saturday January 26, 2002 @10:18PM (#2908127) Journal
    Losers like myself are screwed the first time some millionaire decides to pay them $500,000 to be able to re-enact some Hitlerian nightmare. I can already see the invoice.

    $500,000 Supreme totalarian command of medium-large nation.
    $250,000 Weapons of mass destruction 10 years ahead of any other developing nation.
    $100,000 Impressive cadre of NPC's, minus ethical/moral scripting.
    $79.95 Fascist uniform design and tailoring.
    $999.95 K-line authority for up to 50 standard subscribers per month.
    $4995.95 Immunity from TOS, including all harassment, cruelty and anti-social policies.
    FREE "I'm not God, even though I play one on Entropia MMPOG."

  • The fights will be tremendous (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    If you've ever played Everquest, or any of the other MMORPG, and hung out on the message boards, you know the kind of fights that have started over those games.

    Adding real money to the mix will make those fights look like spitballs vs nuclear weapons.
  • Just like gambling .. In the end, Entropia gets ALL the money. Well, most of it .. you might sell some stuff, but in the end you'll still be behind. The House always wins!

    -B
  • This was one thing that differentiated Ultima from Everquest. The makers of Everquest opposed the real life selling/buying of virtual assets. Ultima Online, while not directly endorsing it, offically turns a blind eye to this type of trading knowing that it boosted their player base.

    One steady economy that arose on UO was lumber and ingot supply. Due to the skill point cap, Bowyers/tinkers/armourers/weaponsmmiths didn't want to also use up skill points for mining/lumberjacking since that would restrict them from learning combat skills. To fill this void, lumberjacks and miners sprung up selling lumber and ingots on eBay. They can pretty much make a living at it if they can drum up some loyal consumers (by being always ready to supply goods to satisfy their demand and being honest) to keep a steady flow of goods.

    Do a search on eBay ... I think that a lot of people would be suprised to see how much of this sort of thing goes on day to day.

  • I worked on Project: Entropia (Score:5, Interesting)

    by piotrr ( 101798 ) <piotrr@s w i p net.se> on Saturday January 26, 2002 @10:46PM (#2908193) Homepage

    From January to September of 2001 I was employed by MindArk AB in Gothenburg, Sweden, doing some of the game design work, especially bunches of scripting in an odd in-house OO language they made up themselves so that even the designers could produce useful code. ..which, I suppose, in essense means that there were no designers... but I suppose I had better take care what I say about my former employer lest they sue me or something.

    Not that I'm really afraid they would, 'cause I would sue them right back. I didn't particularily enjoy working at MindArk. Oh, the people were nice, especially the ones that got fired whenever some high-up thought they looked too scruffy from working overnights. Whoops, there I go with the legally flammable stuff again. Thing is, MindArk like firing people who get sick and stay at home to take care of themselves. This might sound natural and reasonable to some of our US readers, but here it's illegal practice. Here in Sweden a company is legally bound to monitor the health of employees, because if they don't, they can be forced to pay for work-related damages. If they DO monitor health, dealing with sickness is a paid by the state, so there's no cost attached.

    MindArk doesn't like doing things by the book though. One co-worker was fired for working over night, bumming out on the couch when the brass came to visit. Nevermind the fact that he just got the community forum online, that was apparently secondary. Then there's me, who originally was proud enough to think that I was (also illegaly) fired for being too critical.. turns out I had had one flu too many (no, I don't drink). After that, I also heard that the most driven of the artists got fired, and the effect these kinds of things have on co-workers.. well, I don't have to tell you, do I?

    But I suppose most of you want to know about THE GAME, right? Well, that's where I don't want to go. I probably can't say jack squat about the game. If I did, I'd better play some Frank Black "Men In Black" real loud and hope they mistake me for one of them when they come knocking speaking in legalese.

    However, I'm a clever guy.. what I can't say I can still insinuate, so read carefully between the lines here. I may only have 4 years of experience in the business, and granted that P:E was my first and only MMORPG, and the work I did was partially generic sound system design and partially extremely high-level theoretic community system design (that I doubt anyone will read my documentation for, or implement my classes for) but ..did you see the guy here on /. who said that the NDA "sounds a little too convenient"? Have you noticed how few have ever even seen the game? I've seen it. Eddy [slashdot.org] has seen it, so it does exist.. but how come nobody has really played it and told us about it yet? I can't answer that because I would get sued. I can't suggest an answer to that. Too bad because I could probably have told the lot of you a bunch of interesting stuff.

    What I think I am allowed to say however, is that I will not be playing Project: Entropia. Maybe nobody ever will. Maybe I already said too much.

    / Per

  • Possible problems with this system (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I've seen several of my friends play MMOs and have tried one myself (Anarchy Online) and we've shared experiences.

    One of the problems I forsee is that MMOs have a tendency to "change the rules" as time goes on. Without a well established manner of determining certain game behavior (weapon/armor/combat interactions, etc.), you invite LOTS of people to bitch whenever the rules are changed. In all MMOs that I know of, combat/armor/weapon rules change to promote game balance. Imagine how pissed people will be when the Leet Sword of Lesser Monster Slaying they just bought with REAL MONEY gets nerfed.
  • Had some strategy/puzzle/luck games that you could play with other players.

    Basicaly it was like this.

    Say a 4 player game.

    Everybody anted up 25 cents. The winner got 75 cents and the website pocketed 25 cents.

    Basicaly a slight 'fee' or 'tax' is imposed on to every transaction to ensure that the company does indeed make some money.

    Sure you can likely hunt down that Great Super Duber Uber Sword in the Forest Of Really Really Nasty Critters, but then after your 5 or 6 hours of work you will go into the town and sell it to some dude who is paying $5 real life for it.

    The exchange rate system is likely NOT 1 to 1. A 1 : .85 rate or some such is more likely. Though 1 : .75 is what I would expect them to charge.

    In other words if you put $5 real life into the games currency, expect to only get $3.75 out.

    That means that if you get 100units (whatever cash, I forget what it is called, read the article, no memory. ^_^ ) for $10, and you pay some dude 100units for his Super Duber Uber Armor, and that dude that withdrawls 100units from the game, he will only get $7.50 in real life cash.

    ::shrugs::

    Company pockets $2.50 for your 5 or 6 hours of server usage (not half bad, heh) and since items are guarnteed to degrade, there is no chance of all of the system ever reaching an inert economy, there will always be money flowing in and out of the system, and with each transaction in and out of the system the company in charge of the system will be collecting a little bit of money.

    Actualy having items degrade is not /STRICTLY/ necessary, it just hastens things up a bit. It will ensure that not everybody all at once never ends up with the Armour Of invincibility and never die or need to buy another item again.

    In Ragnarock Online though, tons of Zeny (the games form of internal only cash) was being spent for some time on mere collectors cards (doh) that did absolutly nothing at all other then, uh, well, they actualy did absolutly nothing!

    If the creators of this new game can learn how to properly manage fads and whatnot and manipulate supply and demand, they could make a FORTUNE off of these things.

    Remember those electronic collectable card games that all bombed awhile back? Yah the ones that wanted you too pay money for booster packs? Heh.

    If they can setup such a system within their game and actualy make it successful. . . .

    Think Pokemon but with almost *ZERO* production costs. :)
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • The paper "The Lessons of Lucasfilm's Habitat" [fudco.com] has some interesting tales about the economy of one of the first MMORPGs.

    This story is my favorite:
    It turned out that in two Vendroids across town from each other were two items for sale whose prices we had inadvertently set lower than what a Pawn Machine would buy them back for: Dolls (for sale at 75T, hock for 100T) and Crystal Balls (for sale at 18,000T, hock at 30,000T!). Naturally, a couple of people discovered this. ... The final result was at least three Avatars with hundreds of thousands of Tokens each. We only discovered this the next morning when our daily database status report said that the money supply had quintupled overnight.



    Such a bug in Project Entropia could bankrupt the company.

    • All of the game designers working at MindArk have read the Habitat Lessons, I helped them to it.

      No, wait.. Correction: All of the game designers who worked at MindArk when I left there in Septeber 2001, had read it. I do not know how many of them remain and how many were replaced by recent college graduates with Delphi skills and breasts.

      And no, I have nothing against women in the business, I would like more women game designers to be employed based on their skill. It's just a funny fact of life that MindArk have gone from 2 to 5 female employees [mindark.com] in less than 6 months, and all of those new recruits being in the system design area.


  • From the CNN.com article.
    Publishers, historically, have frowned on character auction sales, saying it detracts from the spirit of the game. They're probably also not real happy about the practice since they don't see any return from the sales.

    Is there any truth to this? How could they possibly complain about not making any money on transactions when these are the players that would sooner go without food for a few days, rather than not paying their UO/EC bill? And as far as it detracting from the game... it's just a reflection of capitalism. Some people are willing to pay for virtual goods with their time and others, with their money. I personally play RPGs for the fun of building up my character. The entertainment is in the journey, not the destination. But the people who buy powerful characters, don't (generally) detract from my game play. So, what's the problem?
  • Think about it... They need a system that handles real money and thus should be 100% secure against cheaters, therefore security by obscutrity is not the way.

    They do not intend to sell any copy of the game itself, just the in-game money should be payed. Therefore, they don't have anything to lose from open-sourcing it.

    By going open-source they could ensure that (if the game is successful enough) it would be ported to other operating systems.

    After the game has a substantial number of users, they could also open the source of the server software and thus getting the development for free. Better still, they could give virtual money to code contributors (that in turn could be cashed in for real money).

    OTOH, I think the decay model is not that fun, as it's not really like real life, and people won't be that eager to pay real money for something soon to decay. A better model will be having uneven exchange rates. i.e. 1$ -> 10PED, but 15PED -> 1$, thus they profit from every exchange and interest on all the money in circulation at any time.
  • If the Entropia folks were smart, they would sell not just gametime in Entropia but the ability for any player to buy, create, and control a virtual world of their own that they could open to other players. Entropia may not be able to offer me a virtual world I'd like, but someone else may be able to use Entropia's technology to create a world I would enjoy, a world where I might even buy things.

    Everyone would get something out of this arrangement:

    Entropia would get fees from world-owners (and possibly a cut of all goods bought and sold);

    World-owners would get the opportunity to take advantage of Entropia's population and technology to try to make profitable, fun worlds of their own;

    Players would get many new worlds to try.
    What's important here is that all these worlds are linked; that you could travel to one from the other like you travel from one country to another in realspace. (Convert your currency at the border. Certain items may not be allowed in a given world, and must be checked upon arrival. Reclaim them on your way out.)

    By making all the smaller worlds parts of one big game, Entropia (or whomever) could exploit network effects and firmly tip the market in their favor. The first company that begins *selling* virtual worlds to the masses is going to be the company that dominates the industry. Infrastructure is always a more appealing buy than content.

  • Yay, I think it would be just so much fun to play a game where people who are rich in the real world are at an advantage. Not.

  • Vendors are key (Score:2, Interesting)

    by coldtone ( 98189 )
    In EQ you can sell almost anything to a vendor. A vendor being a NPC the server runs. Now the amount is usually very small. But the starting point for the economy in EQ is selling items to vendors (get a couple of sliver for that wolf pelt) and looting corpses.

    I imagine that in this game you will not receive any credits from looting. Only items, and that vendors will only take in a certain type of loot and then only a certain amount. (So if you found an exploit that let you get a ton of High Quality Wolf pelts you wouldn't be able to sell them all, if any.)

    If you can make money from looting, and can sell anything to vendors it wont work.
  • Converting currency to credits in this fashion looks very similar to the conversions done by "barter businesses" during the early eighties. These businesses were required to pay tax in most places, as the law does not currently restrict the concept of "money" to any one implementation (and rightfully so...)

    So what about local, state, and federal tax? Sales tax? When I sell somebody a super duper magic cloak, do I have to collect? Where do I send it? Do I need a business license and associated tax number?

    Wonder how long before cash-strapped local and state govs will settle on this?

  • How about money laundering? Seems like Entropia is ripe for that kind of activity...

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