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Games Entertainment

Lik-Sang To Take On The Big 3? 243

Posted by timothy from the has-anyone-seen-my-free-market dept.
kableh writes "According to a press release on Lik-Sang's website, the gaming accessory company has new management, and is prepared to mount a strong defense in their upcoming lawsuit against Microsoft, Nintendo, and Sony. "Just a few days after having received High Court Orders not allowing us to sell Mod Chip products for the Playstation 2 and Flash Linker products for the Nintendo Gameboy Advance, Lik Sang realized that the powers of those three multi-billion dollar corporations are simply infinite compared to the budgets and resources businesses like Lik Sang have available. Their legal actions have been hurting our customers and our business a lot in the last couple of weeks, so that we have finally decided to let somebody else take over Lik-Sang.com and solely concentrate on the lawsuit", says Alex Kampl, Director of Lik Sang International Limited."
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Lik-Sang To Take On The Big 3? More

Lik-Sang To Take On The Big 3?

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  • Customers First (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Doomrat ( 615771 ) on Saturday November 23, 2002 @04:49PM (#4739753) Homepage
    "Their legal actions have been hurting our customers and our business a lot"

    That's something you don't see often - they mentioned customers first. Lik-Sang really are great, and I'm personally glad to see them sticking it to the man.

    • Re:Customers First (Score:3, Informative)

      by Hunterdvs ( 461524 )
      Hrrrm yes they want to put customers first. I don't think so. I bought a flash linker a number of days before the lawsuit hit. A month later I get a form email telling me I will recieve a refund the first day of november. Well it's november 22, and i still havn't recieved a refund for an item i should have recieved in september.
      Lucky for me my credit card company issued me a refund (credit card policy, not lik sang) and as far as i know they have not had any luck with lik sang either.

      I'm not alone in this situation, just search google groups for a large list of people who made off a whole lot worse that I did, especially the ones who sent them money orders and paypal orders.

      If lik sang really wanted to put the customers first they would answer our emails and/or issue refunds that are months overdue. Lik sang is in it for the cash, nuff said.

      • Re:Customers First (Score:2, Informative)

        by neostorm ( 462848 )
        I ordered a flash linker kit around the same time you did and received my refund on the 15th this month.

        Hope it gets cleared up. These guys really do give me the best experience as far as customer support and satisfaction goes.

  • ...difficult (Score:5, Insightful)

    by sheean.nl ( 565364 ) <(sheean) (at) (sheean.nl)> on Saturday November 23, 2002 @04:54PM (#4739779) Homepage
    Sueing only Microsoft is virtualy impossible, sueing Nintendo, Sony AND Microsoft is going to be quite a suicidal task... how much money do they have to burn?

    • Re:...difficult (Score:5, Informative)

      by cryptor3 ( 572787 ) on Saturday November 23, 2002 @05:14PM (#4739869) Journal
      Just for the record, Lik Sang isn't doing the suing, it's doing the defending.
      • I wonder how far you'd get by getting a cheap-assed lawyer to defend you.

        OK, incorperate a company with NO fundage whatsoever. Then have your cheap assed lawyer answer all the legal bull until you get to trial. Once you are in trial, do things like asking Steve Balmer if it'd be ok if you smash an XBOX you just bought. Then proceed to smash it. 2 days later, make him come back and ask him if it'd be ok if you unscrew the XBOX. Let him go back to Seattle. 2 days later, call him back and ask him if you can put a baseball card inside your XBOX.

        Basicly, keep the CEOs of the companies there for the entire trial. Make it expensive for the company to defend itself. Call everyone from the guy that thought about the XBOX the first time all the way up to the very top of MS. And keep these hundreds of witnesses there the whole time. Call them to the stand and ask a question. Then just waste as much time as possible.

        I wonder what the MS response would be to having hundreds of employees called away to trial would be? Couple that with their expensive assed lawyers, and you just made the trial painful to MS.

  • More like the Big Two-and-a-Half (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Guppy06 ( 410832 ) on Saturday November 23, 2002 @05:00PM (#4739806)
    Watch some video game commercials on TV. You'll notice that the games are published for GameCube, Playstation 2, Game Boy Advance, PC... and a distinct lack of Xbox support. The only games I see advertized for Xbox are only for Xbox (which suggests poor third-party support), and they've now resorted to the marketing gimmick of giving away free games with the console.

    Mod me down all you want, but I can't escape the impression that Xbox is floundering. Software houses that stressed they were going to be hardware agnostic a year ago now... aren't. Barring any miracles, I forsee the Xbox going the way of 3DO in less than a year. They just don't have the first- and second-party support to keep their heads above water.
    • Interesting observations.

      Sega was tried to give away free games with the Saturn to try to sell it... and we all know what happened with that.

    • Re:More like the Big Two-and-a-Half (Score:5, Interesting)

      by gss ( 86275 ) on Saturday November 23, 2002 @05:19PM (#4739883)
      I wouldn't count out M$ just yet, they still have plenty of cash to throw at XBox. We all know that when Microsoft wants to dominate a market segment they are usually pretty relentless until they get what they want. They have bought exclusive rights to some titles just to boost Box sales.

      Also I think Xbox live might make them more of a viable competitor, from what I've heard it's a better user experience compared to Nintendo and Sony's online offerings, albeit a pay service. I know several people who have bought Xboxes recently just for Xbox live. So who knows, it will be interesting to see where these console wars go.
      • Yes, but for the first time, redmond is not in a position to succeed because:
        1/ the consumers are aware. Everybody and his grand mother know of the monopolistic behavior of redmond, even windows die hard fans.
        (the other day i saw a comedy on tv on prime time, where they put a show showing microsoft eggs in the supermarket:
        to buy your eggs you must first pay and subscribe a contract through an undecypherable eula which gives you the right to buy eggs.
        Then you can buy your box.
        At home in the box you see locks on the eggs, you must phone microsoft to obtain the lock to open and use each egg. The phone call is billed.)
        2/ the market is aware. This time, they re not going after a sleeping giant like ibm, It's Sony which is also a huge company but can't be caught off guard. And other smaller compagnies won't give them any support since they know they'll get swallowed or destroyed if Sony loses. Smaller compagny like Nintendo are serious actors not to be dispised. Its management is wise, expert and the console sell well in Japan).
        3/ The place is already fillen with ps2. Every kid I know, and through my kid they re numerous, who likes consoles has a ps2. The few who havent want a ps2. The rest wants a game cube by the way, out of "nintendo does great games" attitudes (mario and zelda fans for example).
      • "I wouldn't count out M$ just yet, they still have plenty of cash to throw at XBox."

        How much money you throw at a game generally doesn't affect how good the game is, one way or the other. They're like movies like that.

        "We all know that when Microsoft wants to dominate a market segment they are usually pretty relentless until they get what they want."

        But in just about everything else Microsoft had the ability to leverage their operating system monopoly in order to get what they want. But, just like the DVR market, Microsoft doesn't have any such tricks up its sleeves in the console market.

        "They have bought exclusive rights to some titles just to boost Box sales."

        Nintendo is the only video game company that has show the ability to consistently make exclusive games good enough to drive up hardware sales. If exclusive Sega titles were enough to keep the Xbox competitive, they would have been good enough to have kept the Dreamcast, Saturn, Game Gear, etc. competitive.

        "Also I think Xbox live might make them more of a viable competitor, from what I've heard it's a better user experience compared to Nintendo and Sony's online offerings,"

        But nobody knows how well console gamers will take to what has originally been a PC-only gimmick. PC gamers and console gamers are apples and oranges.
    • Hmmmm...

      Splinter Cell Hitman 2 Madden NFL 2002 Madden NFL 2003 (along with most of the EA Sports franchise) Tony Hawk Pro Skater 4 (for that fact, most of the entire Activision franchise)

      Now, the Xbox has been out for how long now? Just barely a year, and they have quite an impressive stable of games:

      Xbox Games Catalog [xbox.com]

      Give Microsoft and the Xbox the ammount of time it took Sony to gather their collection of PS2 games (I won't even acknowledge the PSOne catalog, since the Xbox is *significantly* superior to the original PS/PSOne), and you'll see them being on-par with where the PS2 Catalog is now.

      Game Development houses have repeatedly stated that developing products on the Xbox is also *significantly* easier than for PS/2 products.

      It just goes to show you that people will take any opportunity to poke the most sucessfull Software company in history in the eye, even if it is just for spite!

      ScottKin

      • "Now, the Xbox has been out for how long now? Just barely a year, and they have quite an impressive stable of games"

        So? GameCube has been out for an almost identical amount of time, and yet they seem to be more supported than Xbox. I've seen plenty of advertisements everywhere for games for everything but Xbox. And I don't mean "one game for PS2, one game for GCN, one for PC," I mean "three games, all playable on PS2, GCN, PC, and not Xbox."

        "It just goes to show you that people will take any opportunity to poke the most sucessfull Software company in history in the eye, even if it is just for spite!"

        I'm not making this up. Next time you're watching TV, keep an eye out for game commercials. There are a few Nintendo-only commercials, fewer Xbox-only commercials, and the rest advertise support for every hardware platform under the sun except Xbox. You're more likely to see "Available for PS2, GCN and GBA" than "Available for PS2, GCN and Xbox."
      • "Give Microsoft and the Xbox the ammount of time it took Sony to gather their collection of PS2 games"

        Do they have that time? The PlayStation 2 didn't have any real competition until the Xbox and GameCube come out. They had to fight the Dreamcast. Microsoft, on the other hand, has to do all that while trying to fight against Sony.
    • Have you stepped out of your house? You are completely full of **** not to mention extreamly biased. Go to best buy, funco land, gamestop, ANY PLACE THAT SELLS GAMES.

      They have almost as many games and space dedicated to Xbox as PS2. What about Game Cube? About half the space. I am tired of the fact no body cares about facts on Slashdot. Xbox may not be on the top of the charts, or even close in Japan, but its clearly #2 in the United States and analists are predicting XBox will jump even further ahead of the Game Cube this holiday season.

      Let me ask you this. Did you know 150,000 people bought XBox Live in the first week? Did you know there are over 200,000 XBox Live users as we speak (With friends/family logging in as guest, plus the 30,000 beta testers).

      XBox is definately selling well in the US right now, and its picking up steam. PS/2 is still selling strong. Game Cube.....I don't know all of the facts, but I only know one person who owns one, and the games just aren't in the stores.....atleast the Game Stop and Best Buy near me have very few Game Cube games.

      --
      • They have almost as many games and space dedicated to Xbox as PS2. What about Game Cube?

        My local best buy has about 3/4ths of a side of an isle dedicated to XBOX games, the other 1/4 being mostly xbox accessories. The Gamecube has roughly the same space. The PS2 games occupy 2 full isles.

        XBox is easily out numbered at my local Best Buy, and it is even more so in other local stores.

      • Re:You are full of it (Score:2, Interesting)

        by bstadil ( 7110 )
        Did you know 150,000 people bought XBox Live in the first week?

        Did you know PS2 adapter sold out 450,000 units at launch? MS only made 150k units as they needed the good press of "SOLD OUT".

        They claim to have sold 2.5Mu in US and each unit has a build in ethernet adapter so why only make 150k?

        Second: MS / Sony et al is breaking international trade law by imposing Area restrictions. I hope Lik Sanfg make that a cornerstone of their defense.

      • "They have almost as many games and space dedicated to Xbox as PS2."

        Think about how much shelf space was still dedicated to the Dreamcast this time two years ago. Then think back to what happened during the following year.
    • What's worse about the free bundled games is that they're packed OEM-style both on to one disc with a heap of trailler vids, and you don't even get a proper game case for that disc, just a paper+plastic sleeve!
    • One thing to think about...

      Microsoft is not Sega, Microsoft has _DEEP_ pockets and they clearly said it, they are willing to loose money for some time to gain market share. Microsoft can afford to loose $1B on one product for its launch, sega wasn't able too.
    • "The only games I see advertized for Xbox are only for Xbox (which suggests poor third-party support),"

      Do you know how exclusive titles work? It sure doesn't sound like you have half a clue.

      To drive up sales of the Xbox is why the release them! If a game is just for the Xbox, I know that the development team will have had more time to make it work brilliantly on the Xbox.

      Also, if the exclusive game is something I really, really want (like Shenmue 2x, Jet Set Radio Future, etc), I am more likely to buy the Xbox to get the access to those exclusive games. I bought an Xbox for JSRF, for example. Platform exclusive games boost sales a lot (the N64 lived and died only for Mario Party, the Zeldas, and Mario 64 for me).

      As for multiplatform games, if I have the choice between a game which runs on the PS2, GameCube, and Xbox, I know that the Xbox one will look better than the PS2 or GameCube version, but that it won't have any of the features of the Xbox taken advantage of. It's a bit of a mixed bag that way, but you'd still be foolish to buy the PS2 or GameCube version over the Xbox version (unless you like jaggy-ass graphics, or prefer to limit yourself in terms on online play).

      "and they've now resorted to the marketing gimmick of giving away free games with the console."

      Maybe you live in a cave, and have no impression of time. But this is the Giftmas shopping season. Sony's not making any deals, but Microsoft has put out its value added package, and Nintendo has cut the price on its GameCube again in order to drive lucrative sales. The largest percentage of console sales happen in the next 4 weeks, and they're looking to load up their consumer base. It's not a gimmick, it's plain sense!

      "They just don't have the first- and second-party support to keep their heads above water."

      Do you even know what that means? First-party would be Microsoft itself. How is the (potential) failure of the Xbox going to harm them, when they make the licence fee + 3rd-party fee on each Microsof game they sell? Second-party would be someone like Rare, who has a deal which lets them get a little lower licence cost for making Xbox games, because they will only produce Xbox games ever (which is helped since Microsoft owns the majority of the company). Maybe you are thinking of third-party (unaffiliated developer) titles. Third-parties like Sega are sure as hell keeping the Xbox going, with many great sequels to Dreamcast titles that sold millions of copies being kept Xbox exclusive (they get a better licence negotiation this way).

      You seem like you have no idea how the console indurstry works. Hopefully this clears things up for you. If you don't like Microsoft, just say it. Don't make up stuff about how the industry works inside your mind, when it's way out of tough with reality.

  • I think it's great... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by ThogScully ( 589935 ) <neilsd@neilschelly.com> on Saturday November 23, 2002 @05:03PM (#4739820) Homepage
    ...to see people really stick up for what they think is right, especially when so many people aren't willing to play ball with such big corporate identities. This seems to be a a pattern lately.

    Hopefully, it can become a huge PR boost to take on a big powerful company and let the common people know more about these sort of conflicts. That can act as extra incentive for small companies to stick up for their rights and further bring attention to these problems.
    -N

    • Re:I think it's great... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Tofuhead ( 40727 ) on Saturday November 23, 2002 @05:52PM (#4740012)

      It's very easy and comforting to romanticize Lik-Sang's reasons for being so adamant in their own defense, but you have to realize that, above all, they are protecting their bottom line. Their clientele is largely composed of mod-chippers, and if they can't please these people, business will suffer.

      It's similar to how Apple caters so well to their Mac customers. It's an effective means towards an ultimate goal (PROFIT!!!), not proof of Steve Jobs' undying love for the unwashed masses.

      That being said, I also admire Lik-Sang for what they are doing. But I admire them for the balls that it takes to stand up to the big console manufacturers, not for their virtuous behavior in defense of the little guy.

      < tofuhead >

      • It's very easy and comforting to romanticize Lik-Sang's reasons for being so adamant in their own defense, but you have to realize that, above all, they are protecting their bottom line. Their clientele is largely composed of mod-chippers, and if they can't please these people, business will suffer.

        As far as I can tell, their clientele is entirely mod-chippers, or at least gamers. Everything else on their site is perpetually out of stock.

        And as we know, a dramatic number of gamers are chippers. I actually bought a chip for my PSOne from modchipinc.com but they didn't provide me installation instructions for my model of PSOne (I can't find them anywhere else either) so I haven't managed to install it.

  • MS and Sony should follow Nintendo's example (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Samir Gupta ( 623651 ) on Saturday November 23, 2002 @05:03PM (#4739824) Homepage
    We had developed a special proprietary media for the GameCube, which makes piracy all but impossible. There is also no internal hard drive to act as storage, either. Therefore, you don't see much GameCube warez or modchips floating about, compared to the PS2 and Xbox scene.

    MS and Sony, with their resources, should have invested time and money to develop proprietary media as well.

    • Re:MS and Sony should follow Nintendo's example (Score:5, Interesting)

      by neonstz ( 79215 ) on Saturday November 23, 2002 @05:26PM (#4739914) Homepage

      I am the (proud?) owner of a PS2 (not modded), GC, X-Box (modded) and a GBA (with Flash Linker).

      First, what I really hate is the region system all systems (except GBA) use. I live in Europe, and I feel it is sad that I have to wait several months for some titles (like Metroid Prime and Super Monkey Ball 2). I'm really looking forward to the Freeloader for GC (if it ever ships).

      The reason Sony and Microsoft didn't use a proprietary media is because both PS2 and X-Box are supposed to be more than a game console. I'm not sure if that was a wise move, but the X-Box do at least have a potential as a home entertainment system (although not exactly the way Microsoft wanted it :).

      What I really wonder is why Nintendo joined Sony and Microsoft suing Lik-Sang. The flashlinker is not just for copying games, but for developing too. I have written some GBA demos, and I the GBA is a really nice piece of hardware. I never use my GBA for games anyway, as I only own one (original) game. (I'm really considering buying Super Monkey Ball Jr, that game is just incredible!)

      And... is this [gamecubebackups.com] a hoax or is this for real?

      • But moding a GameCube to be all region is less than the pre-done bundle they offer.

        The gamebackups themselves are illegal because there is no method they use to verify if someone owns a copy or not.
      • "The reason Sony and Microsoft didn't use a proprietary media is because both PS2 and X-Box are supposed to be more than a game console."

        So? The Panasonic GameQ plays both prorpietary GameCube games and DVDs.
      • What I really wonder is why Nintendo joined Sony and Microsoft suing Lik-Sang. The flashlinker is not just for copying games, but for developing too.

        Actually, I think you've just answered your own question. Nintendo definitely charges for the GBA development kit. They don't want you to be able to make games on their system without you paying them, even if you're not distributing the game.

      • It is real, but it requires modification to the gamecube with a bios swapper + modchip And a mod to the drive, to enable it to read industry standard DVD-r.
        Not an easy feat. And at nearly $9 (retail) a blank for mini-DVD-r it's not nearly as cheap.
        If all three had chosen mini-DVD style media then the pricing and availability would drop, but not by much. DVD-r blanks are made using the same process as CD-r, and yet they're nowhere near as cheap. Although they've finally hit the $1 and below prices, depending on where you buy it (and the quality of the media).
        But you don't see nearly as much about GC mods, even though both were released at the same time.
        Either there is more demand for the X-box mod, or else the it really is that much harder to make a working mod for the GC.

    • Re:MS and Sony should follow Nintendo's example (Score:5, Insightful)

      by ymgve ( 457563 ) on Saturday November 23, 2002 @05:27PM (#4739916) Homepage
      We had developed a special proprietary media for the GameCube, which makes piracy all but impossible. There is also no internal hard drive to act as storage, either. Therefore, you don't see much GameCube warez or modchips floating about, compared to the PS2 and Xbox scene.

      Fine. So, can you now lower the price of your games, since you're obviously not affected by picary anymore?
      • It would be a bad idea from a financial standpoint -- people are willing to pay current prices.
      • I don't know about you, but most of the games in the GameCube section at EB are 59$ to 69$, while the Xbox and PS2 sections are 74$ to 79$ for most games. A new PS2 or Xbox is 300$, while the GameCube is 200$. When you consider the 14% tax I pay in my province on purchases, the GameCube really is the least expensive console.

        Capcom is really good at aggresively pricing the Resident Evil series on the GameCube. I'm ready to sell all my Dreamcast Resident Evil games to offset costs :)

    • Re:MS and Sony should follow Nintendo's example (Score:4, Insightful)

      by MrWa ( 144753 ) on Saturday November 23, 2002 @05:35PM (#4739939) Homepage
      MS and Sony, with their resources, should have invested time and money to develop proprietary media as well.

      A better idea would be to let me play a game that I buy anywhere in the world on the system that I already own. That's the problem - proprietary systems may be nice for the manufacturer that wants to limit my ability to play legally purchases games without buying second system; for the enduser they are nothing but frustrating.

    • In regards to this proprietary media, I have heard that it is just DVD media that is mini-CD sized and spins backwards. First, can anyone else substantiate this rumor. And secondly, how hard would it be to modify a DVD-Burner to spin the other way around?
    • We both that nintendo isn't involved in this suit for the modchips, but rather for the gba flash carts (and gbc). Just how much does developer hardware cost that developers prefer the piracy hardware to your own custom tools? Apparently the pirate hardware is more efficient for them to run as its A) cheaper and B) faster. I've heard stories of testing multiplayer games on illegal flashcarts because they "burn" faster. Hell, on an interview on TechTV or ZDTV or whatever with Iguana soft, there's a clip of Turok 2 running on n64 copier.

      Is this really a problem nintendo wants to solve by litigation?
    • Oh puleeeze! Don't try to pull that crap on us. We game developers know good and well the only reason why a proprietary media was chosen was to capitalize on licensing.

      Those who have never made a Nintendo game have to realize that you have to fork over some huge percentages to the Big N just to get on their platform. That's why so many developers dropped the N64 and went to the Playstation. Either you let Big N make the cartridges or you didn't make a game for the platform. That's why so many developers stopped making games for Nintendo and went to the Playstation.

      The reason why Sony and MS didn't go the proprietary media route is because they didn't want to spend the infrastructure to develop the factories to make it, not to mention the fact they saw how pissed off Nintendo made game developers. DVD works just fine and is cheaper to develop for. The Dreamcast got away with it because it didn't require any specialized CD manufacturing equipment using their compression scheme.

      Nintendo may not have a GameCube warez problem (yet), but it doesn't have nearly the sales or the titles the other two platforms have. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

  • Legal standing... (Score:4, Funny)

    by BSOD from above ( 625268 ) on Saturday November 23, 2002 @05:05PM (#4739831) Homepage
    if they continue to make and distribute the mod chips without implying that they be used to modify a proprietary system, on what grounds can they be sued?

    Put a big disclaimer on the side that says:

    DO NOT USE THIS CHIP IN PLACE OF U19 IN THE SONY PLAYSTATION 2 MAIN BOARD VER. 1.3, DOING SO WILL VOID THE WARRANTY AND MAY BE A VIOLATION OF APPLICABLE LAW ...then tell the big three were to stick it...

  • Meanwhile in Dayton, Ohio ... (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward

    Librarian: May I help you, young man?

    Frustrated kid on computer: I want to get to Lik-Sang, but I can't.

    Librarian: Why, you rude young man - leave at once!

  • MS, Sony and whomever else(never cared for nintendo) have great power.
    This was never about protecting their revenues.
    They have chosen to use their power to destroy a small business in hong kong that actually sells usefull products that they didn't think of.

    Lik Sang is right about this hurting their customers. Their website was punted like a girl from #bearcave
    MS has used their power to disrupt a company from selling legitimate products. I was going to buy a 7" LCD screen from liksang at one point and couldn't. I had to get it elsewhere. Oh Wait, no one else sells such usefull products.
  • Here's my take...

    In the Napster case, we saw the defendants argue for their software as a means to distributed free/independent/other music. I think that's what Lik-Sang has to argue here; the ability to play foreign games.

    However, in both cases we see another, huge aspect: the ability to distributed copyrighted music (Napster) and the ability to play pirated games (mod-chips).

    Do we really have to wonder how this one will turn out? Yeah, Lik-Sang might have a minor issue here, but when the product is being used by so many people to do much illegality, I don't see how any logical person can permit its existence.

  • This isn't a software issue, dammit (Score:5, Interesting)

    by forkboy ( 8644 ) on Saturday November 23, 2002 @06:07PM (#4740060) Homepage
    The thing that kills me about MS, Sony, and Nintendo flexing their corporate might here is that this isn't software we're talking about. This isn't a licensed product...when you buy a PS2, you OWN it, and whatever you choose to do to it once you own, wether that is playing with it, smashing it to bits, reselling it, or fucking around with the hardware, that's YOUR choice. They have no legal say into the matter, so they should have no sway over Lik-Sang for selling a chip that modifies said hardware.

    It really chaps my ass that this should even need to GO to court.

    • I never cease to be amazed by how greedy and shortsighted people are.

      What people seem to be forgetting is that mod chips hurt the smaller guys--the game developers--far more than they hurt Microsoft, Sony, or Nintendo. By using mod chips and pirating games* you're not screwing the big three, you're screwing the game developers out of existance.

      Developing software is a gamble. The bulk of the cost is up front, and if you're lucky enough to even complete it, and if you're lucky enough that it sells well you might recoup the development costs. If you're really lucky you might even make a profit.

      Mod chips diminish the ability for game developers to ever make a profit, decreasing incentive. I don't know about you, but I think that sucks, and I'm all for companies clamping down HARD on people that make and sell illegal products which have the sole purpose of leeching off the success of those who actually do the legitimate, hard, creative work.

      *Yes, I know that some people use mod chips for other reasons which are semi-legit, but they are the vast minority.

      • It's actually the publishers, not the developers, that are hurt by piracy. So, unless a company is publishing their own game, piracy doesn't make a lick of difference to them, they still get paid.

        Such a small percentage of console games even use mod chips that I doubt the percentage revenue loss by pirates has even hit a mark higher than a fraction of a percent.

        Piracy may be wrong, but so is going after after someone who makes a product that is used just as often for legitimate reasons. (especially with no legal basis for doing so)

      • >I'm all for companies clamping down HARD on people that make and sell illegal products which have the sole purpose of leeching off the success of those who actually do the legitimate, hard, creative work.

        After reading what you've said, I still fail to see where these products should be illegal.

        Suggesting modchips should be illegal because they may be used to pirate is silly. Turning it around you're saying that someone with the skill to reverse-engineer a system and make money doing it doesn't deserve to do it because a coder might get discouraged in making software. Funny thing is, this might be a good thing. Pressure needs to be put on what is clearly a broken system (the current model of software sales) to change it into a system that can generate money without limiting the rights of others to make money (hey, I'm not an economist, just a realist, I don't know how to fix the problem).

        You know what, this happens in a lot of other industries. Example: 3rd party car parts. Guess what, when you buy one of these, your car company "loses" a sale, even though they originally put the effort in to develop the product. But you don't see anyone whining about that, however the effects of these third party parts is identical to the effects of a 3rd party modchip being used to pirate software: The original developer of a product (may) make less money.

        Fortunately, we don't have laws that give people a right to make money in any capitalist country (beats me about China, though).

        I'm all for companies making it easier for smart people to make a living by designing products that benefit the consumer.

        Oh, here's an interesting fact: Chips that break console security actually _increase_ the diversity in software. Look up info about Tengen [classicgaming.com] and their clone lockout chip. And, of course, the break Tengen had allowed all sorts of cool things. Camerica's Game Genie [gamersgraveyard.com] being one of them, IIRC, and another being cool things like clone Nintendos [gamersgraveyard.com] (pushing the price of the "real thing" back down to earth, and adding cool addons, like keyboards), and "1e6 in 1" [parodius.com] game cartridges with 16 of each game using different colour palettes (all stupid, crappy games that totally sucked, for which the developers were the ones originally ripping off the consumers).

        But, alas, people usually only think in the small, short term, which is developers getting the squeeze, and not the long term, which is competition and overall coolness.

        Just my 2 cents.
    • The sale of modchips is easily prosecutable under the DMCA, as it is a product designed to circumvent copy protection which has been reverse engineered. The right to reverse engineer things for compatibility purposes was guaranteed to us (I don't remember where, I'm a bad geek) but that guarantee has been revoked by the DMCA.

      Lik-Sang is selling illegal devices (under the DMCA) and therefore is violating the law. The law may very well be found to be unconstitutional or at least in conflict with other laws, which of course is what we all (including Lik-Sang) hope for.


    • Well, you should read the DMCA (search for 17 USC 1201). That law essentially exists to outlaw mod chips, cable descramblers, etc. It's written with hardware in mind; that's why they're always talking about "circumvention devices" and not circumvention programs!

      Now, I don't like the DMCA (especially after my own run-in [cmu.edu] ) but what you say in your post is simply wrong; they have a fairly strong case against Lik-Sang. Here are the reasons I can think of that the case isn't completely clear-cut:

      - The DMCA might be unconstitutional
      - Lik Sang is in another country (China?) and is probably not really under the jurisdiction of the DMCA
      - Mod chips have other non-circumvention uses: playing import games, hobbyist development

  • nice, but what motivation? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward

    I always like to see the big boys get sued if they are trying to stomp on their little guys to impose their own will. BUT, what I do not understand is why this other company is taking over Lik Sang.

    Don't get me wrong -- I do welcome it. But it is an awefully strange business decision from that company's point of view. What they're doing is taking over a company that

    • owes refunds to many pissed-off customers
    • may not be able to sell some of its products due to legal restrictions
    • is going to have a large legal bill, even if it wins
    • may very well lose the lawsuit and be liable for some kind of monetary damages

    So, what I want to know is what this new company's motivation is. Is the rest of Lik Sang's product line so valuable that it's worth all that? It seems unlikely given the risk, but maybe so. Or, is that other company taking a true selfless action in order to establish a good legal precedent? Or, is there something else I don't see?

  • Microsoft has aquired Pacific Game Technology (Holding) Limited.

    P.S.
    It was sort of glossed over in the story, but it was Pacific Game Technology (Holding) Limited that took over Lik-Sang.

    -
    • So what you're saying is that Microsoft will now remove xbox mod chips from the site and drop out of the legal battle, then pump money into the lawsuit so that they can continue to sell modchips for everyone else's systems?

      • If Microsoft buys a mod chip vendor:

        1. Remove Xbox mod chips from the vendor's catalog
        2. Sell mod chips for Nintendo and Sony consoles
        3. Sell Windows for Nintendo and Sony consoles
        4. Sell Office and Age of Empires for Nintendo and Sony consoles
        5. PROFIT!
      • So what you're saying is that Microsoft will now remove xbox mod chips from the site and drop out of the legal battle

        No, I was making a joke that Microsoft could guarantee that they'd win the case by buying out the opponent and having them drop their defense and withdraw all the mod-chips.

        While I have a pretty low oppinion of Microsoft tactics, I don't think they would be stupid enough to pull Xbox mod chips and promote mod chips for their competition. It's just too important for them to make sure ALL mod chips are illegal.

        -

  • Funny... (Score:2, Funny)

    by HungWeiLo ( 250320 )
    Upon reading the headline, I couldn't help but remember the Onion's 1970's headline (from their Our Dumb Century collection)- Japanese Amuse GM Engineers With Attempt To Build Car

  • Not about piracy (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Froobly ( 206960 ) on Saturday November 23, 2002 @09:27PM (#4740814)
    Within the next year and a half, what percentage of computer users and gamers do you expect to own DVD burners? Of these people, how many are willing to spend the money and effort necessary to obtain media for these devices just to play pirated video games? The few people I know of who own DVD burners use them for backing up large amounts of data, not for copying DVDs. The DVD piracy war will hardly even scratch the current generation of game systems. It probably won't even come into being until the X-Box 2, Playstation 3 and the Nintendo SmallerMoreColorfulExpensiveThing are already out.

    With the PS2, it may be different, simply because the console actually can play CDs, which can be burned fairly easily, but with the X-Box and Gamecube, it's highly impractical, even with a mod chip, to pirate games. Gamecube mods, which consist of a switch and a couple of wires, are about region coding. The X-Box mods are all about running unlicensed software, like Linux and MPlayer.

    The way Lik-Sang is being attacked is not about piracy, but about control. Microsoft doesn't want to lose $250 per console (I've heard it takes ten game sales to recoup the loss from a sold X-Box), and Nintendo doesn't want people to break their market segmentation. Whether you believe these companies should lose money this way is irrelevant; do you really think we ought to be left holding the bag for their flawed business models? I want my X-Theater-Box, and if Microsoft really thinks it's a good idea to sell a $550 console for $250, then they need a reality check.

  • Actually.. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by TyrranzzX ( 617713 ) on Saturday November 23, 2002 @09:41PM (#4740852) Journal
    The real reason all 3 companies are sueing Lik-sang is becuase they want to keep their regional game monopolies regional. They sell more expensive in the US than in europe, or vice versa, or they may sell then in japan for 3x as much as in amercia. It's mostly statistics and how they can extract the optimum amount of money. As we all know the lower the price of an item, the more it well sell and vice versa, the more expensive an item is the less it will sell. Throwing all other factors aside, you'll notice that when you plot a graph of this you get a nice curve. Find the optimum point ont he curve, and estemate for those other factors, do some tricky math, and you find metroid prime should be selling at $49.99 in europe and $59.99 in the USA to make the maximum amount of money, even though they are the same game. So, they regionalize their systems, which is inexpensive, and they increase their profits by fixing the market price of their units. Illegally, mind you. Then, some guy comes along with a soddering iron, figures out how to bypass it. Some company starts selling chips becuase the guy figured he can save $20-40 a game by buying it in europe, or some european can get a game 5 months in advance of it's european release, and you start having problems with those statistics. In short, shops would literally spring up overnight to do this kind of thing if retailers didn't think they'd get the full wraith of hades forced upon them. Another thing. The system is designed to play the game while the disk is in. They don't make nay fancy carrieing cases or fancy protective gear for the game when it's on CD. So, over time, the CD will become damaged to the point where it has to be rebaught. By making sure the person can't play the game in the future, and by making sure that you can force people to buy a new game when the original breaks, you can further increase your profit margins. Then when someone questions them, they pay off the reporter or person, or tell them that they do it to ward off piracy then deny the fact that, statistically, they are completly incorrect. They then release the statistics at the end of the year, round off to some big number, and then publish it for joe-smoe's kid to use in his report. So no, it's not hard work anymore. It's the fact that one guy is good at something, and another guy who isn't as good decided to take legal action so he can compete. Game designers, on the other hand, I have a certain respect for. They do work hard and I bet they enjoy every moment of it.

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