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PC Games (Games) Role Playing (Games) Entertainment Games

Neverwinter Nights Tidbits 74

Posted by CowboyNeal from the hack-slash-and-recall dept.
WWWWolf writes "The fine folks at Bioware have opened a new For Developers section, aimed for people who make external tools for the game. At the moment they have a forum and description of one of the crucial file formats, used for packaging data in the game, with more coming." This looks pretty cool. It's been several months since I loaded up the Aurora Toolset. I might have to get back into it again. In related news, Apostata writes "It seems there's even more steam under the lid of the NWN Linux community now: the Linux client won't be shipping with any ability to play the narrative cutaway movies between chapters, due to licensing/porting problems with Bink. Many are outraged, as this obviously makes for an incomprehensible game." Apostata also notes that the Aurora toolset also won't be ported.
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Neverwinter Nights Tidbits More

Neverwinter Nights Tidbits

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  • Bink (Score:3, Insightful)

    by andrew_dupont ( 253112 ) on Thursday May 08, 2003 @11:14AM (#5910313)
    From what I can piece together, "licensing/porting problems" means
    (a) There is no Bink codec for Linux, and
    (b) Bink's license w/ NWN forbids BioWare from converting the cinematics to any other format.

    While this sucks, it should be said in BioWare's defense that a Linux port was not originally planned. Bink was a fine choice at the time--it's not BioWare's fault that they're pioneers in the Linux retail gaming market. Instead, fault Bink for not having their shit together.
    • Indeed. People are quick to jump on Bioware but they're making progress, the client is damn good, and although this does suck, I only need to see the movies once, since the real value is the multiplayer aspect anyways.

      I just hope that whatever they learn from this game makes it into their future titles. Maybe hire some ex-Loki guys? *hint*

      • Re:Bink (Score:2, Interesting)

        by Jainith ( 153344 )
        ...since the real value is the multiplayer aspect anyways

        Um...NO! I just have to say that as a single player game, NWN was very impressive, However on the multiplayer side it sucked big time. However it did get us to restart an old D&D pen and paper group around here...

        Jainith

        • Um...NO! I just have to say that as a single player game, NWN was very impressive, However on the multiplayer side it sucked big time. However it did get us to restart an old D&D pen and paper group around here...

          Were you using the Gamespy browser to try to find games? If so, yes, it sucks. Gamespy is a terrible way to set up a D&D game -- D&D is not something where you can join some stranger's server right in the middle and play away, and a lot of the persistent worlds out there are weak.

      • I only need to see the movies once
        Uh.. they're not saying it only shows the movies once and then it stops working. It's going to play the movies zero times.
    • A Linux client was promised even before Neverwinter Nights was released. Whether it was planned or not is rather irrelevant for me; it was promised. Fortunately (?) I have been burned often enough to never again buy software on promises.

      • Re:Bink (Score:2)

        by eht ( 8912 )
        A Mac and BeOS version were also planned/promised, they were even supposed to ship all at the same time in the same box originally, though I completely undestand why they dropped support for BeOS it looks like there isn't any Mac version either.
        • How about mac has, or is still clinging on the verge of dropping below linux in desktop market share...

          • Re:Bink (Score:2)

            by eht ( 8912 )
            But but but but, Mac OSX is the most widely used Unix(yes I know they don't get to use the trademark) out there, or at least that's what Apple was claiming at one point.

            Doesn't really matter to me, I use FreeBSD for my server, right where it belongs, though I also have a FreeBSD box as a server/workstation, and my Windows box for playing games.

            I see no reason to move to an all Unix based system, I like Windows for what I use it for and I don't use it for stuff that I don't feel it should be used for, alth
    • This item [insidemacgames.com] shows that they had conceived of a Linux client during development, granted. But it also says they planned to port NWN to OS X and BeOS (!), which clearly didn't even get done.

      If it had been "planned" then it wouldn't have arrived a year late with less functionality than the PC version.

    • Actually a linux port was promised from the get-go.

      Still I've been using the beta (5 now). And it has been behaving much better than the Windows version. It's more stable and faster! -- I'm very happy with the port -- and there are ways to play the movies outside of the game.

    • http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/12/29/134020 3

      So as you can see you are very wrong.

    • Re:Bink (Score:4, Insightful)

      by MrResistor ( 120588 ) <.peterahoff. .at. .gmail.com.> on Thursday May 08, 2003 @04:48PM (#5913563) Homepage
      As has already been pointed out in other responses, the Linux port was planned and promised long ago. It is quite justifiable to fault BioWare for:

      (a) Using a proprietary codec which doesn't support Linux, and
      (b) Signing such a dumb-assed contract that allows a third party to prevent them from fulfilling their promise to their customers.

      Bink may not have their shit together, but it was BioWare who allowed Bink to be a show-stopper. As Obi Wan said, "who is more foolish; the fool, or the fool who follows him?"

  • Closed vs Open (Score:5, Insightful)

    by jsse ( 254124 ) on Thursday May 08, 2003 @11:15AM (#5910321) Homepage Journal
    the Linux client won't be shipping with any ability to play the narrative cutaway movies between chapters, due to licensing/porting problems with Bink

    So much for adopting proprietary movie format while they had choices. 'Vendor-locked' is a curse for many existing legacy system nowaday and whenever we design a system we put openness in high priority(next to budget :), that rules out a lot of proprietary, vendor-locked solutions.

    Just as I speak we ruled out acrobat for our electronic form submission project and seek some pure Java solutions.

    • Why are they locked in? (Score:3, Interesting)

      by 0x0d0a ( 568518 )
      I just can't figure out why they're locked in. Surely OpenDivx doesn't have licensing fees and is patent unencumbered? They have the masters of the movies, unless they purchased a license with the artists only to use the movies in a particular format...which seems fairly unlikely.

      It seems like they could just compress the things into Divx format and ship 'em. I think most folks could live without extensive Q&A, especially when the alternative is no movies. Just add an option to disable cinematics t
      • It's my understanding Bink has the Linux codecs now but it's probably something akin to "well you only signed up for the Windows version, so if you want the Linux version it's gonna cost you more money - and you're not allowed to go elsewhere either" - and the concept of selling a handful more copies due to Linux users is unappealing. This is Bink being jerks, but this is also Bioware not thinking it's worth it, financially.

        So here's an idea - prove to them its worth it.

        1. Bioware figures out exactly how h
        • If the Linux version sells enough copies, Bioware drops the cash, puts in the Bink code, covers their costs. If it doesn't, everyone gets a refund.

          Thanks for the best laugh I've had all week.

          There's open source, then there's just bonehead business strategy.

          The latter seems to apply in this case.
      • Mpeg2 and Mpeg4 are most definately patent encumbered, at least in the US. Mpeg1 (layers I+II audio, and video codec), I _think_, are not currently encumbered, or at least expired. At least, the mpeg licensing authority doesn't have it on their web page, nor has a google search turned anything up.
        • Actually, I was wrong about one thing -- smpeg is MPEG1, not MPEG2...so yeah, it'll be non-patent encumbered.

          So DivX (well, sans license) is currently illegal in the US? This is news to me...
    • Indeed, Bink must be terribly easy to use for artists or something, because it's caused 4 of the 5 last showstopper game bugs I've had. (come on Bink, it's not as though win2k is new, or uncommon)

      [for those curious, the 5th was a broken CD-checking mechanism that wouldn't allow the game to run on ntfs]

  • Let's hope that when Bioware makes Neverwinter Nights 2, they take these issues into consideration.

    For once I'm glad I didn't grab the game as soon as it came out.

    • Re:NWN2 (Score:2, Insightful)

      by FroMan ( 111520 )
      Nod, I've been patiently waiting for NWN to come out of beta for linux. When it does I'll gladly swing on over to some linux specific site to purchase it.

      When I see games that come out on linux I try to pick them up to support the companies doing it. So, while it may not be as feature rich (no movies, no editor) in linux, I am telling the company they are moving in the right direction.

      Personally I'd love to see Blizzard do some linux ports.

      You see, I bought win2k last fall, but it will be my last MS pu
    • There is no way Bioware will port any more games to Linux. They've learned their lesson.

      Look at KOTOR. Same engine as NWN, but they will never port it to Linux.

      GAME OVER
      • If KOTOR is using the same engine, that isn't already ported to Linux, then it's not surprising that it hasn't been ported.

        When Bioware revises/redoes the NWN engine is the time to be critical of their "future" Linux support. Not now.

        • I agree.

          My point was that Bioware is not porting KOTOR to Linux, even though a lot of the work has already been done for NWN.

          Bioware wont make the same mistake twice by trying to port games to Linux. It's a money-losing proposition.

          • I agree.

            My point was that Bioware is not porting KOTOR to Linux, even though a lot of the work has already been done for NWN.

            Bioware wont make the same mistake twice by trying to port games to Linux. It's a money-losing proposition.

            While you may be right about future porting, how is it a money-losing proposition? Bioware has probably already made money on porting to Linux. Many Linux gamers have already bought the game, and Bioware obviously hasn't spent a lot of money on the port. And if they apply

            • While you may be right about future porting, how is it a money-losing proposition? Bioware has probably already made money on porting to Linux. Many Linux gamers have already bought the game, and Bioware obviously hasn't spent a lot of money on the port. And if they apply what they learned this time, the port won't cost any more the next time.

              Bioware definitely has not and will not make money on the Linux port, and likely not the Mac port either. As you and everyone else freely admits, Linux users ha

              • As you and everyone else freely admits, Linux users have already bought the game. The windows version. So any money that was going to be made likely already has. Some argue that Bioware promised a Linux client. Fair enough, but generally I have no sympathy for people who buy a box expecting to get something that is not in the box.

                And I have very little sympathy for companies that promise something and then get a lot of shit for not delivering. If on release day, it had turned out that the -Windows- vers

  • One thing to remember is to... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by VisorGuy ( 548245 ) <inactive> on Thursday May 08, 2003 @11:19AM (#5910349) Journal
    Keep cool.

    If we blow our collective tops about this, what do you think that will accomplish?
    I seriously doubt it'll encourage them to develop for Linux when they are planning the next game.

    I hope they have learned a lot from this and will realise that the proper way to go about multi-platform support is to do so from the beginning.

  • Lies, damn lies, and statistics... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by eviltypeguy ( 521224 ) on Thursday May 08, 2003 @11:19AM (#5910350)
    I understood the lack of the toolset. I understood the beta being so late. However, I am extremely hacked off at the fact that the client is still incomplete. Movie playback is missing because of their choice to use Bink instead of a non-proprietary format, and they don't have the guts to port Bink themselves or pay someone like icculus to do it.

    I really want to know how Bioware could possibly claim they were going to provide a native Linux port, when it's very obvious they were using non-portable libraries like Miles and Bink. How did they expect things to work at all? Were they just hyping things hoping that community good will would help sell their game better because they were going to have a Linux port? Bah.

    The point is, I demand a full client. They said it was going to be there, and it's very close, but it's not quite there. They have done so well, and it's absolutely shameful that they've decided to do this.

    As it is, they might as well call the Linux port the "Neverwinter Nights Multiplayer Special Edition", since it doesn't include a toolset, and without movie playback the Single Player experience has been greatly diminished.
    • A shabby Linux client is infinitely better than no client at all. Efforts are being made in good faith, and while that doesn't exactly satisfy me as a gamer, it is comforting in the larger sense.

      NWN2 will be done a lot better and will, hopefully, open the door for more Linux ports of retail games.
      • >Efforts are being made in good faith,

        I disagree. Saying the Linux client would be out "soon" when it apparently hadn't even started development was a bad faith manipulation to get Linux folks to buy the Windows version expecting that they'd have the Linux client shortly.

        • In their defense anyone who bought it should have known better. This was one of those games that perpetually was going to be released "soon." The Linux client delay is just par for the course.
          • > In their defense anyone who bought it should have known better.

            You're saying when someone is lied to it's thier fault for believing the lie? That's hardly a defense for the liar is it?

            The burden of wrong doing is on the originator of the lie not the people lied too.

            • Every software company has missed a release date, feature set or platform at some point. If they haven't yet, they're fairly new. It's an industry truth.
              • But they didn't just miss a release date. They said for a year that the Linux version would be released at the same time, in the same box, as the Windows version.

                A week before release date they changed that to the Linux client being available 'soon'. Reasonable expectation is that when they said it would be available soon, that they meant soon. In actuality it appears that serious work on the Linux client didn't even *begin* until the programmers got back from a two week vacation following the release of

  • Untrue (Score:5, Informative)

    by eviltypeguy ( 521224 ) on Thursday May 08, 2003 @11:23AM (#5910382)
    "While this sucks, it should be said in BioWare's defense that a Linux port was not originally planned. Bink was a fine choice at the time--it's not BioWare's fault that they're pioneers in the Linux retail gaming market. Instead, fault Bink for not having their shit together."

    This is completely untrue. They had mentioned and "planned" a Linux port, years before the client came out. Look here:

    http://www.insidemacgames.com/news/story.php?Art ic leID=2195

    They mentioned it as early as 2001!!!
    • Well, I've got to think that a Linux port was not planned from day one, or else they'd have chosen a video format that could be played on all platforms.

      Here it is, a year after the initial release of NWN, and the Linux port is still in development and slightly crippled. Doesn't seem very planned to me.

  • Linux Installer (Score:3, Informative)

    by termos ( 634980 ) on Thursday May 08, 2003 @11:31AM (#5910466) Homepage
    The Linux client at Bioware's webpage requires you to first install the files with the windows installer and replace some files, not sure which ones.
    If you don't bother all this you can download a graphical GTK+ installer from here [icculus.org], make sure you have support for Joilet.

  • won't get my money (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Ender Ryan ( 79406 ) <MONET minus painter> on Thursday May 08, 2003 @11:43AM (#5910591) Journal
    I held off on getting NWN because I wanted the Linux client. I'm a Linux user by choice, and a gamer by way of life, so I occasionally cave in and buy a windows-only game. I had planned to pick up NWN, because I'm not into RPGs and wanted to give a good looking one a try, and NWN was supposed to be supported on Linux, so what better one to try?

    Well, I guess that has kind of fallen through... Guess I'll be trying out some RPG's on my PS2 instead.

    • The cutscene movies are crap anyway... you won't miss much. The best part about NWN are the thousands of community-created modules, at least half of which are better than the included single-player campaign, and only a handful of them have any cutscene movies.

      Really, it's a fantastic game. Don't miss out.

    • held off on getting NWN because I wanted the Linux client. I'm a Linux user by choice, and a gamer by way of life, so I occasionally cave in and buy a windows-only game. I had planned to pick up NWN, because I'm not into RPGs and wanted to give a good looking one a try, and NWN was supposed to be supported on Linux, so what better one to try?

      I couldn't have said it better, except that I am into RPGs, but generally not computer RPGs. The exception there being Daggerfall/Morrowind, which I gave up to becom
    • Not many movie sequences and you can still follow the plot without them...Oh and wine does play the few movies and once they arer played you'll realise just how blown out of proportion this is...

      Saying that, this is a lesson in NOT using proprietry formats, use one that has better licensing.

      StarTux

      • re: proprietary formats -- Yeah, no kidding... Especially considering that they were planning support for Mac and Linux from the get-go, and bink supposedly has problems on OS X.

        I mean, come on, WHAT were they thinking? There are plenty of open and/or free and/or cross-platform video file formats. DivX ;-), MPEG 4, Quicktime(yes, you can get proprietary cross-platform dev kits for using qt on Linux, Mac, Windows, even other unixes), even MPEG 2 would be fine.

        It just doesn't make sense, unless they wer

  • Keep it in perspective (Score:4, Interesting)

    by josephgrossberg ( 67732 ) on Thursday May 08, 2003 @11:56AM (#5910718) Homepage Journal
    "Many are outraged, as this obviously makes for an incomprehensible game"

    Sure, there's a places for cut-scenes, storylines and cinematics. But, believe it or not, some of us don't care about the story line; we'd rent a DVD if we wanted that.

    Some of us have always enjoyed exploring interesting dungeons, killing cool monsters, collecting useful treasures, going on challenging quests and upgrading our characters without pondering the deeper meaning of *why* our character does this.

    I mean, does anyone really read the storybooks that come with the game? I'd be surprised if 10% of gamers even bothered.

    Plus, it's interesting for D&D fans to see the 3rd Edition rules engine applied to a video game format.

    Considering how popular Nethack is, I don't think a game-only version of NWN for Linux would have any problems with popularity.

    Please quit your bitching for one minute -- NWN is a top-flight game and now Linux users can enjoy it.

    • But, believe it or not, some of us don't care about the story line; we'd rent a DVD if we wanted that.

      You mean like Metal Gear Solid 2?

    • NWN is a top-flight game and now Linux users can enjoy it

      Providing you have a Windows installation to copy the files from, and you don't mind not using the toolset.

      This was a blatant bait-and-switch, whether through planning or incompetency.

  • Screw Bioware (Score:3, Insightful)

    by metamatic ( 202216 ) on Thursday May 08, 2003 @11:59AM (#5910744) Homepage Journal
    They claimed they were building Mac and Linux versions simultaneously with Windows. They reported that all three versions were "coming along nicely [begroovy.com]".

    When the Windows version was released and they had to go hire someone else to start the Mac port, it became clear that they were lying. Furthermore, I bet they're going to demand that Mac and Linux users pay full price even though we won't get any of the DM tools.

    Well, screw that. The main reason I was interested in NWN in the first place was the ability to run campaigns. If all they're offering is another RPG, I'll go play one by a company that doesn't lie to me and try to rip me off.
  • Do you know how many times I've actually even SEEN an in-game movie in the almost YEAR I've been playing NWN on the PC?

    Once, MAYBE twice.

    NO ONE USES the ability to put them in a game. With the exception of Bioware and their 2 minute intro you won't miss much. This rage over the lack of a movie player is stupid and juvenile. If you're looking for something to be pissed-off about (wait, of course you are, this is about a Linux port) then be mad because the promised port is almost a year late. I agree that

    • NO ONE USES the ability to put them in a game.

      Yep. Game cutscene production is often out of the league of Your Average Modder. The software is way too expensive and lousy software makes cheesy cutscenes. (Heck, the cutscene tutorial by Bioware recommended PowerPoint and an .avi screen recorder! Ewww!) Almost everyone can make mods with the toolset, quite a few can make custom 3D objects, but producing several minutes of cool-looking animations is stuff that requires a severe caffeine budget for even pro

  • Aurora was never planned. (Score:3, Informative)

    by moosesocks ( 264553 ) on Thursday May 08, 2003 @03:44PM (#5912843) Homepage
    If you've read the bioware site and message boards, they never promised that they'd port Aurora. In fact, I remember them saying a LONG time ago that they would not port Aurora, as it would require them to strip many of the useful features out of both versions of Aurora, and rewrite the toolkit from scratch. NWN for the mac will also not include the toolset.
  • Even though this has turned into the "Screw Bioware because they didn't give us the Linux support we wanted" thread, you can't deny that what they are doing to support the NWN community is commendable. They could very easily have turned their back on the community and said, "We gave you all the tools you need, go use them." Instead they continue to add more tools as well as, in this case, get into the nitty-gritty details of how part of the game works.
  • I've played the game and I can tell you right now that these "cut scenes" (fade in/out images with voiceover) are no big deal. I was shocked that the WarCraft III between-battles scenes had more action.
  • All I want is some honesty at this point.

    I have been very quiet and patient at this point. I was upset when no linux support was given out of box. "I'll wait", I said. I felt confident that I would not be long for a release because Bioware had been very good about keeping linux users up-to-date as to the "status" of the linux port. I was not shocked when it did not come out right away, because I figured that it was indeed not the highest on thier list of priorities. But I never suspected that I was li
  • Yes its kinda hard to follow, but when you wathc those cut screens you're really not missing much.

    Now wish radgames would pull their fingers out of there a$$ and make a codec for Bink and Linux...

    Perhaps Bioware will make the moral choice and drop radgames for future games, I am sure they can find alternatives.

    StarTux
  • Gah. Been in Slashdot for ages and when I finally get a story submission through, people focus on another submitter's bad news, and mostly needlessly. =/

    Okay, so the Linux NWN client won't do cutscenes. Big deal. Very few mods use cutscenes anyway, and the only thing I remember from the cutscenes in the official campaign is that the playback was quite choppy. =)

    But the developer section is huge news. Yeah, the obscure file formats Bioware has developed have been reverse-engineered [torlack.com], but this stuff is sti

  • Nuff said.
    (but because enough is never enough)
    The cutscenes were interesting in that they added to the back story, but scrolling text would have worked just as well. I *really* like in-game cinematics. Going to Bink just serves to dissrupt my suspension of disbelief. The cutscenes were jarring and broke up the continuity that hours of play had built up.

    I'm certain that going with Bink is a mistake that Bioware won't be repeating. (and hopefully, they'll switch to in-game cinematics or at least use an open

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