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Games Entertainment

Underground DC Developers Strike Back: Feet of Fury 185

Posted by timothy from the rance-rance-revolution-shraggy dept.
frohike writes "After reading the recent article about game non-originality, I'm pleased to say that there's another entry to the Dreamcast's innovative game lineup, and this time it isn't coming from one of the Big Publishers but the underground: Feet of Fury! This independent music beat game includes player vs player gameplay and a Typing of Fury mode. It was developed by us on a $0 budget using Linux, Gimp, and various other free tools over the past few years, and it uses the BSD-licensed KallistiOS toolkit as its base. (This is the same toolkit which most homebrew developers have written the emulators and such with.) We've used a number of neat free software technologies such as Ogg Vorbis in the game itself, and we contribute a large chunk of our code back to the community in the hopes that others can follow in our footsteps. There is even a publisher ready to help you get your ideas to fruition and sell them for you, so what are you waiting for? Now's your chance to be a console developer too. Let's make some great new innovative Dreamcast games!"
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Underground DC Developers Strike Back: Feet of Fury More

Underground DC Developers Strike Back: Feet of Fury

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  • Original? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Quarters ( 18322 ) on Tuesday May 27, 2003 @08:01PM (#6052865)
    The game mechanic is from, "Dance Dance Revolution". How is this an original product?
    • Damn beat me to the main point. Not only has DDR been here first, but it already has a Korean clone (PUMP It Up, which is more original than this) and a freeware/OS variation (Stepmania). This is just weak.

      • Damn beat me to the main point. Not only has DDR been here first, but it already has a Korean clone (PUMP It Up, which is more original than this) and a freeware/OS variation (Stepmania). This is just weak.

        By the way, recent cvs checkouts of stepmania build on linux, although there are still some temporary nasties, like statically built custom SDL libraries, but it certainly does work alright for testing purposes, (still alsa only for sound though).

    • Re:Original? (Score:4, Funny)

      by t0qer ( 230538 ) on Tuesday May 27, 2003 @08:20PM (#6053001) Homepage Journal
      Yah we all know konami ripped DDR from
      DDK [somethingawful.com]
    • I think (hope) the point of this post, is to say that it's possible for the little guy to actually make a game and get it published. Half the argument of the Non-originality article was that there were no Art-house publishers. These guys have come along on a shoestring budget, and not only have they made a product, but actually have (some) distribution.

      It's admitedly a little bit of whoring for this guys project, and for a (mostly) dead system. But it should give reassurances to anyone who's trying t

    • Re:Original? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by nvrrobx ( 71970 )
      The idea isn't original, but the tools used to create it could fall under the innovation category.

      Groups of "hackers" got together and wrote their own ways to develop for the platform instead of the licensed software development kit you would get from Sega.

      "Typing Of Fury", while not a new idea (combining "Typing Of The Dead" with "DDR"), but a combination of existing ideas is innovative, I think.

    • Re:Original? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Buzz_Litebeer ( 539463 ) on Tuesday May 27, 2003 @10:17PM (#6053568) Journal
      The thing is, can you find a game idea that is original?

      Ok heres a game idea, lets make a game thats like a trippy roller coaster ride through sewers, except you have a gun and you have to kill the sewer life. All of this takes place in an apocalyptic future, and if you can survive this insane roller coaster ride you get to watch a fat dude rolled down a hill in a tire!

      oh, wait that was a game!

      I mean seriously, there is almost nothing i have thought of that hasnt been done. And everything I have thought of that hasnt been done, would be done, except that it would require shitloads of money, and be MMORPG version of games that already exist.

      Even puzzle games have almost been worn out. I saw someone extolling the virtues of this game called "snord" calling it "innovative" but the thing is I had seen that game like 10 years earlier in an arcade, just oh it looked different but had the same goal nad required chunking quarters in it.

      These guys arent too bad, they made an interesting game in a genre that hasnt been totally smacked around and devalued. Yes I know you could bring up britney spears dancing etc, but hey it is a relatively rare gametype, and I propose thats really all you are going to get.

      i even doubt that when we move into 3d VR games (sometime in the future) that you are going to find anything that isnt really just a derivation of previous work.

      Just because something that was done before, or was trying to be done before, now has technology that can do it better, does not make it unique. If that were so, if i invented tomorrow a way of transmitting data across time and space, then millions of companies could start patenting things that already exist, except that they hadnt been done before in my new ether communicator..

      Just becuase you are doing something in a new medium doesnt make it unique, and i dont think there are going to be many unique games out there in terms of how the game is played.

      I think the biggest thing is if you make a game have a good story, and enjoyable in terms of standard games, and for puzzle games you need to make them challenging in a new and unique way. But it in no way would really be unique in the term that it would be something "so new" that you had never been challenged similarly, or seen something like it before.
      • Can i find a game idea that's original? Yeah, sure. I'm working on one right now. Is it easy anymore? Well, not as much as it once was. People have been making video games for fifty years now. Wow, that seems like a long time, until you think about how long people have been telling stories. Are there no new stories? Well, at a really macroscopic level, you might say that the structures of narratives are all played out (though i'd say that some of the postmodernist novels claimed new ground recently)
        • It is in its own way unoriginal, it is taking something from one medium and adapting it to the other. It's uniquness is derived from the previous work. Yes it was done in a new medium, but it in of itself is unique. I think what is more important is that it is well done. Take a look at Half Life 2, on the surface it is a new FPS game, but its probably going to carry it off with style and depth that you wont find from say other recent FPS such as Red Faction 2.

          and Ok "snood" hehe.

          But I wasnt saying the

    • No way, d00d (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Atario ( 673917 )

      Dance Dance Revolution is totally a Simon ripoff. Which is itself totally a "Simon Says" ripoff. Totally, d00d.

      • Completely untrue. You've either never played DDR, or never played Simon.

        In Simon, a series of tones/lights/buttons is played out.

        Then you play the same series back to it. Simon is wholly a memorization game. You don't even need to do it at the same speed as the machine played its series to you.

        DDR, on the other hand, is completely real-time. As the arrows are moving up the screen, you've got to hit them in time to the beats. It's not about memorization, it's about reacting quickly. (Arguably, one could

  • Sw33t (Score:4, Funny)

    by SugoiMonkey ( 648879 ) on Tuesday May 27, 2003 @08:03PM (#6052873) Homepage Journal
    Now I can make "Custer's Revenge 3D" like I always wanted to.

  • Did anyone else... (Score:5, Funny)

    by FurryFeet ( 562847 ) <joudanxNO@SPAMyahoo.com> on Tuesday May 27, 2003 @08:03PM (#6052876)
    ...saw the headline and assumed "Feet of Fury" was a new DC comic being developed in some kind of Batcave like facility?

  • There's no way. (Score:1, Insightful)

    by WereTiger ( 148010 )
    Dreamcast is a dead console, if I'm going to put work into developing for a console at all would I be better served to work on one that has a future?

    And there's just something wrong about open-source games.
    • The dreamcast is very attractive to homebrew on due to being able to play burned games without a modchip. It has also been around for a long time, so there is a big community around it.

    • Re:There's no way. (Score:5, Informative)

      by Anonvmous Coward ( 589068 ) on Tuesday May 27, 2003 @08:36PM (#6053083)
      "Dreamcast is a dead console, if I'm going to put work into developing for a console at all would I be better served to work on one that has a future?"

      No, there are priorities ahead of it:

      - Dreamcasts are cheap, like in the $50 range
      - DC's don't require modding to play CDrs. Just download the ISO image, burn, and go.
      - DC has a good simple architecture, plus BSD to develop on.

      To put it another way, the DC has a much better audience than any of the other consoles out there for a game like this. People aren't going to flock to the game if you have to have + mod an XBOX or PS2.
      • I realize they aren't aiming to make a blockbuster hit of a game, and as such the enviroment has the appeals you've mentioned.

        My question was really whether it was worth spending time developing on that platform. Do the skills you pick up there transfer to any other mediums? IE: if I get into working on the dreamcast, will that help me later in developing games for the platforms where it could actually be fruitful?

        Seems to me, with the completely different architectures and different scope of capabilitie

        • Re:There's no way. (Score:3, Insightful)

          by 2nd Post! ( 213333 )
          Sure it applies.

          Developing a game is developing a game, regardless of architecture. It means learning the basics of good algorithms, good story design, good interface, optimization, perhaps some marketing and research.

          Specific tools may be different, sure, but that's like saying, "Is it worth learning to program on Linux if you're going to be working on Mac/Windows/Solaris/AIX?"

          The answer is yes. Skills are skills, while experience is experience, and you need both.
        • if I get into working on the dreamcast, will that help me later in developing games for the platforms where it could actually be fruitful?

          In theory, yes. I have not been keeping up with how the development has progressed, but at one point I know kos was planned for porting to the PS2. If you're writing right to the metal with asm this wouldn't be so important, but I could easily see a dreamcast game which used KOS's OpenGL implementation being simple to get working on a ps2 if kos were to be ported. I kno
        • "Seems to me, with the completely different architectures and different scope of capabilities the lessons learned on a dreamcast would be largely useless to a PS2 developper"

          The big problem is that they're completely useless if nobody plays the game. It's not very possible an indie to publish a game on the PS2. As a matter of fact, Sony'd likely fight it. Ever notice that 'unofficial' games are not on the market for game consoles? You can thank Nintendo for that one. A company called Tengen tried to

          • You can thank Nintendo for that one. A company called Tengen tried to make a game (Tetris I believe) using a cloned unlicensed cartridge. The result? Nintendo sued, and won. As a matter of fact, the Tengen Tetris is a collector's item. Sega won't pursue that with the DC.

            The Tengen Tetris case you're referring to was not about Tengen publishing unlicensed titles, but about who had the rights to publish Tetris. It was a big convoluted mess, in part because the Tetris creator (Sergei Kosmansomethingoroth

            • "The Tengen Tetris case you're referring to was not about Tengen publishing unlicensed titles..."

              Doh! I apologize, he's right. I haven't thought about this since 1996 when I worked at FuncoLand. Hehehe :)
      • There is an exception. Generally, Dreamcasts manufactured after October 2000 will not play CD-Rs. But honestly, most of them were made before that time. It's not too hard to find one that supports the MIL-CD format.
        • The parent forgot to mention one item that might be useful to those considering jumping on the Dreamcast bandwagon and buying one. Every DC has its "born on" date imprinted on a barcode label on the bottom. So, you don't have to go in "blind" on knowing whether the second-hand unit you're looking at will work with CD-R games.
      • It seems like to me this is just another procession of the GNU movement. OPEN SOURCE GAMING is here to stay. hehe.. i want to see a blue hat dreamcast or something now.

    • Re:There's no way. (Score:2, Interesting)

      by inkedmn ( 462994 )
      Dreamcast is a dead console

      i dunno, a $50 web server that you could damn near mount on your wall sounds pretty cool to me :)

    • Re:There's no way. (Score:2, Interesting)

      by pebs ( 654334 )
      Dreamcast is a dead console, if I'm going to put work into developing for a console at all would I be better served to work on one that has a future?

      1) Dreamcast is very easy to develop for. And the fact that there are many tools to aid in development help this.

      2) Dreamcast can boot a CD-R without a modchip or some kind of circumvention device. This means anyone who owns a Dreamcast can play your game. You can reach a much greater audience with DC homebrew than you could with PS2/XBox/Gamecube homebre
    • Oh yeah? Will what about all the people who last purchased a Dream Cast for their console and are currently waiting the next big bad ass game console of 2019? Huh? What about those people? Do they not deserve to have some fun in the mean time!?

      I mean shit EVERY one is suppose to buy the latest and greatest all the time. I finally upgrade from Atari and get a Dream Cast but nooooo that obsolete now. I'm not aloud to have fun with that console anymore. I sware it was just yesterday I purchased "Congo

  • Yay! Slashdot! (Score:2, Interesting)

    by TheGatesofBill ( 637809 )
    As the official Dan Potter stalker, I am obligated to respond. Congratualtions on getting /.ed finally, they kept rejecting my posts. And everyone else, if you don't like it, don't fucking buy it. Feel free to make your own damn Dreamcast games. In fact, I encourage it. Hell, I'd buy whatever you make.
  • ...but what is it about?
    The problem of lack of originality was that the games had great gfx and music, but lacked new ideas. Here we read how many great technologies were used, that it has original music, uses some odd operating systems etc, but where's the originality?

  • if your interested in homebrew on teh DC (Score:5, Informative)

    by paradesign ( 561561 ) on Tuesday May 27, 2003 @08:05PM (#6052889) Homepage
    look at this site...

    dcemulation [dcemulation.com] it has all the 'underground DC info youd ever need. also if you want to know about what your dealing with, check this [vidgame.net] page out.

  • Anyone else flinch (Score:5, Funny)

    by Joe Tie. ( 567096 ) on Tuesday May 27, 2003 @08:06PM (#6052892)
    When you saw 'goat' on the link to the publisher?

    • Not really (Score:1, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Everybody knows goatstore will bend over backwards to make sure its products will have maximum exposure.
  • The Typing of the Dead [gamesdomain.com]. The Typing of the . I see a trend here...

  • ummm.... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by sinergy ( 88242 ) on Tuesday May 27, 2003 @08:08PM (#6052905) Homepage
    There have been games like this since the days of the NES games console. [gamez.com]
    How is this in any way original? Just because it uses OGG and was developed by "Open Source" people does not mean it is revolutionary.
  • Anyone know if it's possible to fit the entire NES collection on 1 cd? Then maybe make an emulator on dreamcast to play them? just an idea :)

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) *
      Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • There already is a NES emulator for the Dreamcast. A damned good one too. It's called NesterDC and you can find it at dcemulation.com

    • Yes. (Score:2, Informative)

      by JayBlalock ( 635935 )
      I've personally made a DC CD with NesterDC and approx. 500 games. Based on that, I think I can definatively say you could fit every NES game ever made onto a single CD. (and that's including Japanese imports that never made it over here, but probably excluding localized variants (like "Probotector" instead of "Contra")

      Scary, isn't it? Of course, you could likely fit every 2600 game made onto a single floppy. (ironically, FAT limitations would make that difficult.)
      • FAT Limitations only restrict how many files per folder, Not files per disk... SO given 16B per directory entry, you could fit 92160 directory entries on a 1.44 MB disk.
    • I've seen an NES emulator and collection of roms that fit on 2cd's so I'd imagine that the entire NES Collection would take atleast 2 cds and possibly more if you want to get all the bootleg roms where people changed existing games.
      • ...if you want to get all the bootleg roms where people changed existing games.
        Yeah! Life isn't quite complete until you've played the version of "Super Mario Brothers" with Alice Cooper pixel-swapped for Mario.
    • It's what killed off the Dreamcast in the first place. Nintendo is still selling their NES games as E-Reader cards and putting them in games as extras.. Why not be legit and buy them for a change instead of letting companies go belly up?
      • Why? Because I already bought these games. Back when I had a NES. Just because Nintendo expires their hardware and re-releases games for the newest system doesn't mean I have to buy into it. I consider playing a rom through an emulator for a game I own fair use because it is.


        I doubt Nintendo is going to go out of business, but if they're relying on re-releasing old games to keep them profitable, good riddance.

  • KOS (Score:4, Informative)

    by Joe Tie. ( 567096 ) on Tuesday May 27, 2003 @08:09PM (#6052915)
    If anyone has a dreamcast and hasn't checked this out yet, I recomend doing so. It's really surprising how easy it is to pick up if you've done much work with OpenGL. And while I havn't tried doing so yet, apparently even SDL based programs will now compile with it. Even if one dosn't have any big plans for the next epic game, it's a lot of fun in itself to work with the dreamcast.

  • Scared me (Score:3, Funny)

    by smittyoneeach ( 243267 ) on Tuesday May 27, 2003 @08:10PM (#6052922) Homepage Journal
    Thought there were some developers underground in the District of Columbia. Given the disaster that is the tax code, I don't want the bureaucrats touching any source...

  • Up next for the underground (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Colon of malevolence

  • It is original! (Score:5, Informative)

    by Swiss_Cheeseman ( 535724 ) on Tuesday May 27, 2003 @08:52PM (#6053164)
    All you slashdot flamers probably havnt even played the damn game. The focus of this game is far different to DDR. This game is based around combat, you have to beat the other player by shooting special moves their way. You have a health meter, whoever loses their health loses. Although, there are different rules you can choose from. Its obvious that pretty much NONE OF YOU HAVE PLAYED THE GAME.
    • The US DDR Disney Mix also had a battle mode, which added steps and modified the tempo of your opponent's arrows based on your performance.

      As usual in DDR, you have a meter. When you miss steps, your meter starts to drop. Once it hits zero, you lose.

      While there might be a slightly new twist on the mechanic in Feet of Fury, it certainly doesn't seem very different from a DDR mode which has been available for at least a year.
    • Sorry, you apparently never played DDR Dance Magic. (I believe it was the battle-mode in Disney Mix)

      This is a really cool idea, and I wish DDR had run with it (it would make tournaments VERY VERY INTERESTING) but it's not new. That doesn't mean the game isn't cool, though. I need my DC sent to me so I can get it. :)
    • NONE OF YOU HAVE PLAYED THE GAME.


      Play the Game? Read the Article?


      You're new here, aren't you?


      krystal_blade

    • Drop the Red Bull and take a deep breath there, young one. This game is *NOT* original. It is clearly of the same genre that DDR started. Just because it adds "super duper battle mode" doesn't make it original. It may make it innovative, but it's not original. The gameplay has already been conceived, implemented, tested, and refined in another product. It's also similar in concept to Parappa The Rappa, which also uses timed movements to music. That's not to say that it is a bad game, it might not be. I do
  • I'm not sure whether that game should be considered an 'original' title - looks like it's just a variation on existing dancing games (I'm pretty sure I have seen a dance-game in the arcades where people could compete against each other :o

    There's also a lack of screen-shots on that website - unless the ones provided are all you get to see in the game?

    Hmmm...let's sum up:

    1) Original concept? Dance game...probably not...
    2) Mindblowing graphics and/or art-work? Probably not...(need to see more screenshots to

    • Re:Hohum - not so original perhaps (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Upaut ( 670171 ) on Tuesday May 27, 2003 @09:48PM (#6053437) Homepage Journal
      Large established target-market? No. Who owns a dreamcast?
      -The Dreamcast was a fantastic system, and it is safe to say that it died before its time, due to a low amount of introductory games caused by the early release date, as well as a shoddy ad campaign. I mean, really "Dreamcast... It's Thinking". Nothing like an add that states nothing about the product. They had a chance to belittle their newest competition, and blew it. I would of bought a Dreamcast that Christmas if I knew what living H311 it was going to be to "try" to obtain a PS2. Who out there would not of preferred Sega's system if they had just said "Dreamcast... We ship on time"
      -One more thing, I think it is a wonderful idea for people to still be developing for this console. I am surprised that many third party game developers for the PS2 and other systems do not port their games to the dreamcast. Think of it... There are thousands of people who still own and use their Dreamcasts. With the relative ease that one can program for it, a quick, stripped down port of a PS2 game would make a wonderful demo, and secure the support of gamers on a budget (for, let us all face the fact, this system is a quarter of the cost of a PS2, and not that all worse.) thus getting more people to buy the product, allowing better games to be developed for the more powerful systems.
      -Another point that few people have considered is that the Dreamcast is a good system that, frankly, the original producers have abandoned. Why had there not been a surge of self mod books released to improve upon this console, free of any wrath of Sega? If the Xbox and PS2 punish those that wish to improve upon their own system, why go through all the angst, just start using your Dreamcast again. Sony will not release a new system until 2006-2007, there is still time to "revive" Sega from its grave.
      -And now, in parting, I shall speak those three words that drive those who still support this system to not loose all hope: "Long-Live-Seaman"
  • Where are the bit torrent links? You know its free karma.. come on people.

  • selling it? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by NotAnotherReboot ( 262125 ) on Tuesday May 27, 2003 @09:55PM (#6053477)
    It appears that they're trying to sell this game. It seems like they could run into some major legal problems if Sega wants them to- doesn't Sega have to license you in order for you to create and sell games for its system?
    • only if they are using sega ip in the game or the boot code for the game.

      • Re:selling it? (Score:2, Informative)

        by binarytoaster ( 174681 )
        In order for it to boot, it has to have one of two images in the IP.BIN file - either "Licensed by Sega" or "Licensed by Sega - Windows CE".

        If it has an image that deviates from either one of these, it WILL NOT BOOT. Period. The DC has a version that it checks against in ROM.

        So, they ARE using Sega IP. Whether Sega chooses to go after them, is another story, and something I highly doubt will happen.
    • Now that its discontinued, Sega could at least get some mindshare and a few more fans if they opened up some of their libs for it so it can truely become a legal open ended developement platform for all aspiring console coders to geek on. In this day and age its hard to earn respect in the console biz, this might help. A little.
    • Only if you use Sega's development kit. KOS is essentially an open source dreamcast development kit (well, actually, it's a basic OS designed to load a single program.. but same thing essentially.) Though I really love how they're selling it without providing any screenshots. Is it really so bad they can't provide any idea of what the game looks like?

  • What I don't understand about the dance games. (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Dance clubs have shown a decline in patronage, even dancing as a diversion has declined as well. Yet these games come out, and people are plopping down $2 for 10 minutes to do what can be had for free (or a small cover charge) all night by dancing to a song?!?!?

  • It's great that you're getting so much use out of all the Free Software used in the development of the game (Ogg Vorbis, Gimp, GNU/Linux, and KallistiOS). Is the game you're distributing Free Software too? Under what license? I figured you might release your program as Free Software as a way to contribute your effort to the community that has apparently helped you so much.

  • Typing of Fury (the keyboard-based version of this game) is an interesting take on the whole DDR thing. I had an opportunity to try out an unreleased beta of this that the developers allowed us to borrow for an annual convention [msoe.edu] that the gaming student org at my college runs. I'm not sure I like it, however. Yes, it's a good way to get typing practice in, but it just seems a bit strange . . . Perhaps it was just the keyboards, but occasionally, it seemed as though I'd hit the proper key at the proper ti
  • Didn't you guys get any today?
    How about yesterday?
    How about ever?
    No, your birthday doesn't count.

    Seriously, screw the whole originality thing. I am happy that there are people out there making a home brew game and getting it published like that.

    I think it is cool as all out. I will buy a copy of this game simply to show support for this movement.

    Someone in a thread snobbed off the DC. Well there is one enormous advantage to publishing on the DC that Sony, Micro$oft and the Big ~N~ just can't compete w
  • "it uses the BSD-licensed KallistiOS toolkit as its base."
    KallistiOS? Gimme a break! If that thing's named in honor of Eris/Discordia, the goddess of chaos, confusion and discord, it's gotta be a real pain to use. Then again, chaos breeds creativity, or so the saying goes, so maybe it's a good thing.
  • is an "open content" DDR-style game. By which I mean it would let you design routines to go with your favorite music and share those routines online. Because the concept of the game is sound, it's just the music which is crap. Any hints of something like this in the works somewhere?
    • Because the concept of the game is sound, it's just the music which is crap. Any hints of something like this in the works somewhere?
      How can you say that about DDR music? It rocks to all hell. But then, there are those (strange) people who don't like Eurodance, so...

      Anyway, go check out StepMania [stepmania.com] or Dance With Intensity [claws-and-paws.com]. SM is open-source, but I prefer DWI because of the arcade similarity.

      You can find various DWI files scattered through the 'net; some places to look are ddrei.com and ddruk.com ...
  • It should be pointed out to all the people complaining about the Dreamcast being "dead" that it's still actively in commercial development, even if no more physical consoles are being made. There's actually still about a dozen games left to be released this year, as shown here. [the-magicbox.com]

    So it's ALMOST dead but not quite. ^_^
  • I didn't know they were still making games for Dreamcast. I assumed they wouldn't make any money. THe only time I see dreamcast now is in pawn shops for £100 with 20 games.
  • I'm a sega fan, i love them (and sonic of course), i remember the day i got my first ever console, the sega master system.. I bought my DC as soon as it was released in europe.. But ofcourse all my mates said it was crap (without ever trying it), and bought their PS2's, Gamecube's and Xbox's... Most people here in Norway have never even heard of the DC, but some altso call me lucky for owning one :)

    So it warms me that people are still working with the DC.. I do some OpenGL programming myself, so i might t
  • Let's make some great new innovative Dreamcast games!

    Whilst I do like the dreamcast, I - as well as many slashdotters I'm sure - do not personally own one. While you're at it, how about a trying at a few decent 'nix games for PC... we're still waiting for that hit that brings it into the home anyhow.

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