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First Person Shooters (Games) Entertainment Games

Duke Nukem Versus Take Two? 64

Posted by simoniker from the all-this-acrimony-over-bruce-campbell? dept.
TimeTrip writes "There's a new column at CNN which offers a great overview of the ongoing problems with the Duke Nukem franchise. The publisher (Take Two) has serious issues with the developer (3D Realms), and vice versa. There's also some good quotes in there, including: 'George Broussard, co-owner of 3D Realms, fired back later that day on the message boards of Shacknews, one of the larger gaming community and news sites, suggesting 'Take Two needs to STFU imo.'"
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Duke Nukem Versus Take Two? More

Duke Nukem Versus Take Two?

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  • Hype (Score:5, Funny)

    by DavidLeblond ( 267211 ) <me@davidleblon d . com> on Wednesday June 11, 2003 @12:11PM (#6172849) Homepage
    I like the part where the 3D-Realms guy says "We don't want hype."

    If you don't want hype, don't announce a game and then wait like a decade to release the thing!
    • Varpoware galore - I was waiting for that game for so long, and even after (took years mind you) I got tired of waiting it remains in "production". No Take2 (horrible publisher) got the right to bitch about it.
    • I don't think they knew about the problems that would come later on at that stage. But still, then they should not announce it until they were sure that it would be released :)

  • You go, George! (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Tim_F ( 12524 )
    Telling your publisher to "stfu imo" is a good way of impressing your fans with your business acumen and knowhow. Idiot.
    • they make games, who the hell cares if they have "professional" attitudes?

      • That's my point (Score:2, Insightful)

        by Tim_F ( 12524 )
        They don't make games. What has 3D Realms done since Shadow Warrior? Gotten rich off of Duke licenses, released the source for a few older games, and switched the engine that DNF will use from Quake 2 to Unreal Tournament. This game has been "in production" forever. 3D Realms no longer makes games.

  • Bah, who cares anymore? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Ummagumma ( 137757 ) on Wednesday June 11, 2003 @12:18PM (#6172931) Journal
    This 'game' (I use that term lightly - nothing has been seen of it since 2001, and even then it was just screenshots and a cheesy movie) is so over-hyped, over-due, and the expectations are so high, that 3DRealms cannot possible live up to the expectations. They'd do best to write it off, and start on thier next project. I, for one, am no longer looking forward to this game.
    • ...and the expectations are so high, that 3DRealms cannot possible live up to the expectations.

      I don't know anyone who expect it to do anything but be completely horrible. I'm sure it will live up to that expectation, assuming this isn't the final death rasp of 3D Realms right here.
    • This reminds me of the posts people made about HL2 before it got shown to the public.
      • The difference there, to me at least, is that Valve kept it's mouth shut about HL2 until it was ready to show to the public. Duke Nukem has been hyped for several years now with no actual product in sight. HL2 is due out later this year. Sure it might slip and end up being in the same boat, but it doesn't seem likely.

        According to the article 3dRealms has been at it for 5 years at this point. I'd think they should have something that was ready to show by now if it was likely they had anything.
        • The only reason Valve has kept Half-Life 2 quiet is because they learned their lesson with Team Fortress 2. They offered a feature list and showed screenshots of Team Fortress 2 right after they scooped up the Team Fortress team and nothing has happened since, causing many salivating TF fans like myself a lot of angst. Of course, I'd still buy a TF2 game in a heartbeat, where DNF doesn't interest me much at all (and never has).
          • Yes, but there's still a huge difference -- there are still people occasionally asking about TF2, but Valve doesn't respond. They went off and essentially sequestered themselves and didn't put forth any commentary until showing HL2 at E3.

            3DRealms, on the other hand, keeps trumpting about DNF, and how it'll be done when it's done, and it'll be what the fans wanted, and so on and so forth. Meanwhile they're either writing an engine from scratch (making it their 3rd or 4th, depending on how you count) or usin
          • Could it be that TF2 will be integrated as multiplayer into HL2? That would be a very pleasant surprise :)
        • Has it really only been 5 years?

          I could have sworn I started hearing about this game back around '95 or so... Of course, back then, it was more of a re-release of the DukeNukem 3D with bugfixes and enhancements...
    • They'd do best to write it off, and start on thier next project. I, for one, am no longer looking forward to this game.
      Hm. After a decade of wasted time, god only knows how much wasted money, and a serisouly pissed off publisher, I'm not so sure 3D Realms would get another chance to make a game if they pulled the plug at this point. Perhaps this is why they haven't?

  • At this point (Score:3)

    by Otter ( 3800 ) on Wednesday June 11, 2003 @12:28PM (#6173040) Journal
    At this point, Duke Nukem Forever has succeeded in establishing itself as the epitome of delayed software -- what Microsoft Bob is to pointlessness or Daikatana is to unjustified hype.

    Any actual game could only take a back seat to its status as vaporware.

    • No, you're thinking of Battlecruiser 3000AD.
    • No, no, you just wait!


      George Broussard is about to make you his bitch!


      Suck it down!

      ;-P [gamespot.com]

    • and the whole Derek Smart smack talk? =)

      7 years of development time, 1 vapor ware, and one cocky bastard

  • I think... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    George Broussard is the one who needs to STFU.

    It has been about 5 years, and he is the one who can't shut up about the game they have been hyping all these years.

    Seriously, I do not read their forums but I sware it seems that the only he has been doing is posting to every known message board and defending himself/his company/game/etc. Someone needs to spend more time running a company and working on this vaporware game then spending most of their time posting PR stuff on gaming sites.

    Then there is the f
    • You talk like 3DR owes you something. Well, guess what? We only have ourselves to blame. We all bought into the hype that the next great game was coming down the pipeline. We bitch, we moan, we complain - but what are we complaining about really?

      That a company decided to end the endless hype and speculation that was actually making things worse? Instead of overpromising and telling us more release dates, they just said "When it's done" and we crucify them? I don't get it. I'm glad that 3DR decided t

      • Do you have a job? I would guess not, but if so, do you have to DO anything in that job? In my job, if I tell the people that pay my salary that I'm going to do XYZ, and if I don't do it, I no longer have a job. 3D Realms hasn't released ONE SINGLE GAME since Shadow Warrior in 1996 (I think it was 96), and EVEN THEN, they had someone else do most of the development.

        We're all pissed off at 3DR because you're exactly right! They haven't said anything in years! I have no problem if they say the game will be
        • You're missing the point. For one thing, Take Two screwed themselves by not making a better deal with Take Two. Because 3DR is self-financing the project, they are not beholden to milestone payments. Take Two owns the publishing rights and nothing more. It's the fault of Take Two for putting themselves in this position.

          It just seems like a waste of time to even give a second thought to DNF. It's not out, so why worry about it. There hasn't been a sequel to Citizen Kane yet. It took George Lucas year

          • Yeah, but when was the sequel to Citizen Kane announced? I haven't heard of it... and to my knowledge, George Lucas only announced Episode I the year before it was released... not in 1992.
  • Now of course 3drealms can do what they are doing, if anything they got the cash to do so. The problem being that they are tied with Take2 - so at the sametime they can't (as they need to publish it through take2 unless something happens) ...and as for Take2 loosing money on DNF - well that would be in not incoming cash they are expecting for it, and for PR. PR I'm not seeing... it will get done when it's done - so the question is rather if thats not too late?

  • web boards? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by vitaflo ( 20507 ) on Wednesday June 11, 2003 @01:02PM (#6173430) Homepage
    IMO, 3D Realms should probably be spending a little less time trolling message boards and more time working on the game. At this point, the game is the laughing stock of the industry. They really just keep embarassing themselves.

  • Who Was Responsible For The Hype? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Babbster ( 107076 ) <{moc.liamg} {ta} {bbabnoraa}> on Wednesday June 11, 2003 @01:11PM (#6173534) Homepage
    I ask because I've read that most developers [HAVE to] leave all the marketing to their publisher. Many of them cannot even release a screenshot without clearing it through the publisher's marketing department. It therefore makes me wonder if Take Two was the origin for the early hype factory of DNF and therefore should take responsibility now for whatever bad feelings are out there in the public about the game.

    Of course, the aforementioned public has to take responsibility, too. All it takes is an announcement of a game and one or two screenshots for some geeks to immediately declare that "This will be the best game ever!" followed immediately by putting up fan sites full of speculative information. I've seen people complaing about not seeing any game info for a LONG time, but of course if they got any they would complain once again: "Only three screenshots?? We need more than that!"

    3DRealms, since going through all the DNF turmoil, has for the most part done the responsible thing: They've shut up about the game. When asked about a release date, they now say "When it's done" and they don't answer any more specific questions than that. If gamers would just let it lie, they might just end up with a pleasant surprise when the game comes out. And, if it doesn't, then maybe the stories about this game will end...which would be a very good thing, indeed.

    • But if Take Two was hyping the game because 3DR told them it was going to be a 1999 release, then whose fault is it? It's the publishers job to hype and promote a new game, and to do that properly then need a reasonably accurate forecast of when the game will be done. If TT was told that the game was going to be a Christmas 1999 release, and they cranked up the hype machine based on that date, then I don't think they're to blame the timing.

      3DR has kept quiet about the whole DNF thing for the last couple

  • More delay... (Score:2, Funny)

    by SpotBug ( 228742 )

    I think they're probably gonna wait to switch over to the Doom III or HL2 engine.

    And then, a while later, the Doom IX or HL8 engine...

  • This just in.... (Score:2, Informative)

    by zoobaby ( 583075 )
    Duke Nukem Forever will go down in gaming lore as the best game that never was.

    What kind of business people take their fight into the open public? If the publisher or the developer is that bad, word gets around the industry and no one wants to work with them.

    By having this war of words in public forums, it really makes both sides look like morons and probably have just committed their companies to death.

    Just kill DNF and move on. Try to save your companies and reputation.
  • I bet this game will be postponed indefinitely and then released as freeware with multiple patches over the next 10 years...not a SMART way to make money eh?
  • Both parties should just STFU and finish the f*cking game. Most don't really care about their petty, infantile jabs at each other. I know I certainly don't.

    I've played Duke since the 1st one was brought out by Apogee (there's a name out of the past, Commander Keen all the way!). The way things are going I might play the first 3 & 3D again just to prove to myself that they existed.

  • DNF v HL (Score:3, Insightful)

    by superultra ( 670002 ) on Wednesday June 11, 2003 @01:58PM (#6173969) Homepage
    The press approach of 3drealms is obviously an attempt at swinging the pendulum from their (former) contempory Ion Storm/Romero. The thing is though is that all they've done, what with the press release of Half Life 2, is contrast themselves with Valve. Valve never really said anything in regards to Half Life 2, and any kind of hope for a sequel was only hinted at by rumormongers.

    The biggest problem facing DNF is that 3d games have advanced so damn much since Duke Nukem debuted, and I don't mean merely graphically. Obviously Half Life 2 will push that even further. Let's examine Medal of Honor. It's a fun, solid FPS and yet in implementation it doesn't really do anything we'd consider "new" (ala Tron 2.0, or Deus Ex). Still, MoH has so much more in it than anything Duke Nukem that anything even resembling the original DN will be nothing less than outdated. Unreal II, another example of everything done right but not great, showed us that good just isn't "good enough."

    Basically, this: Duke Nukem is so fundamentally one dimensioned as a game structure that 3drealms has completely missed the viability of selling their game. I played the crap out of the original DN, but I can't see myself playing DNF with the same character and similar storyline when I have stuff like HL2 and Deus Ex 2 sitting around.
    • I'm not so sure about that... technically, Enter the Matrix isn't so hot. There's nothing in it that hasn't been done before, but it still sells. It's got a world-wide recognizable franchise behind it, and enough hype to go to Saturn and back. It's still a one-dimensional game... you're a good guy with guns and you shoot the bad guys with guns, or you pummel them into submission.

      Duke Nukem Forever could be a good game when/if it comes out, and still make money. Or, it could be an absolutely fantastic disp
      • True, but ETM also had a multiple-console release. The PC market isn't nearly as forgiving as ETM, as demonstrated by recent sales charts. ETM has held a very solid lead on every console but on the PC dropped below Vice City and the ever-present Sims games only a week after entering the charts.

        Obviously, your point stands. But HL2 and DoomIII being released is like upping the ante on 3drealms more than they can pay.

  • Old news - Good news (Score:3, Informative)

    by Torgo's Pizza ( 547926 ) on Wednesday June 11, 2003 @02:21PM (#6174230) Homepage Journal
    This article really doesn't tread any new ground on the subject of the issues between Take Two and 3DRealms. Heck, for that matter who doesn't have issues with Take Two? I remember when TT was just a publisher of budget titles. They've made strides though to be better.

    Back to the subject at hand, I really wouldn't worry about DNF too much. I talk to the guys over at 3DRealms at least twice a week, (Well, okay, I email them.) and while I make it a point not to bring up DNF, I've gotten good vibes from them recently. I honestly think that we'll see something by Christmas in the form of some announcement and a release early next year. That's just my crazy talk there. Call me goofy (see next post I'm sure) but I wouldn't count out DNF just yet.

  • It's been longer than 5 years. (Score:2, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward
    CNN article: "Take Two believes that a five-year development cycle is more than enough time to complete a game." Five years?!? Actually, it's been more like seven years. 3D Realms first bought a Quake 2 engine license to build the game on, and development began before Half Life came out. A recent Gamespy article [gamespy.com] summed up the situation best: "The now-legendary Quake and Unreal series hadn't even been launched when the Duke 3D shareware first came out. The 3D hardware acceleration boom hadn't even begun yet!
  • this sounds like the same drifting, unfocused development methodology that IS had for Daikatana. They may not be living like rockstars, so they can make the money last a little longer, but with aparently no risk management, I'm sure the feature creeep and reworking for the game has been a total nightmare.
    They have been wise to keep themselves out of the media. I think they learned something about the meteoric cratering of Ion Storm by letting the media see what a mess the internal workings had become.
    I'm

  • 3DR/Brass is probally thinking... (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    He's probably thinking as he sits in his crappy office (I have seen it) that he's right and everyone else is wrong. I got ten bucks he commits suicide within 2 weeks of release (in 04) when he finds out that the majority of his 'fans' have bailed from the verbal abuse on the boards, that the press ignores the game given the abuse and crap they put up with, and the suits start rolling in the lawyers to eat his legal and financial ass alive. Take Two does have alot invested in this... if I were them I would
  • Didn't Ion storm do the same thing with snide comments about Daikatana. They should be working instead of "STFU u loser" like posts though the point has been stated many times
  • When this game was running on the Quake engine. They should just release the content they had back then for free, to hold us over until the real version never comes out.

    Yeah...

  • If DNF isn't finished in the next year, I wish 3D Realms would just release the character in the public domain and let fans make a DN mod for something. I bet a decent DN game could have come for each engine by now.
  • http://www.shackspace.com/~verbatim@shackmail.com / dnf.jpg

    On a semi-related note, I'm no longer interested in FPS action games. The genre is oversaturated and there is nothing new, interesting, or even enjoyable anymore. Sorry, but that's what happens when you get everyone and his mother making, basically, the same game with different graphics. Oooh. Ahh.

    Id pushes technology.
    VALVe pushes Counter-Strike.
    Epic fights with Id and produces crap like Unreal 2 (or was that Legend? I don't care anyway).
    and 3dRea
  • Q: Name every large commercial game that has ever been in production for over 5 years and still managed to "deliver" in the end.

    A: One (1) - Falcon 4.0. And even that had a number of bugs that had to be worked out post-release. But at least the GAME delivered.

  • I'm surprised that no one has commented on the age old Army definition of the acronym SNAFU...

    which isn't S.hut T.he F.uck U.p

    It is S.ituation N.ormal, A.ll F.ucked U.p

    Which most defiantly applies here to the whole situation.

    George's comment should have been 'Don't worry kids, SNAFU at 3DRelms...business as usual!'.

    brockout.

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