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The Almighty Buck Entertainment Games

Interview w/Edward Castronova 54

Posted by michael from the gender-bender dept.
scubacuda writes "/.ers interested in the recent editorial on real $ in MMORPGs might also be interested in a GrepLaw interview I just conducted with Edward Castranova (expert witness in the recent Black Hat Hacker Court) about how his work on synthetic economies affects larger law and policy issues on the Internet. Ted has some interesting thoughts, particularly how online game-based economics (Star Wars Galaxies, EverQuest, Lineage, etc.) will eventually serve as the bases for "real governments." Should mainstream economics journals take his work on gender and virtual economies seriously, Ted promises to eat his virtual hat."
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Interview w/Edward Castronova More

Interview w/Edward Castronova

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  • In other news... (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    "with", "slashdot" and "money" are all good words to abbreviate using symbols when you're in a hurry to submit a story. Good to know.
  • Shouldn't this be on interviews.slashdot.org and not games.slashdot.org?
    • It wasn't conducted by Slashdot, hence, it is not in their Interviews section. I.E. the interview wasn't driven by questions from the Slashdot community.

  • Wikipedia entry on synthetic economies (Score:5, Informative)

    by scubacuda ( 411898 ) <<moc.liamg> <ta> <aducabucs>> on Saturday August 09, 2003 @05:57PM (#6656755)
    From Wikipedia [wikipedia.org]:

    Synthetic economies perform useful resource-allocation and entertainment roles within MUDs. They also interact with the Earth economy. US dollar markets for synthetic-economy goods, currency, and services may be observed at online auction sites such as Ebay (search "Ultima Online", or "DAoC" for Dark Age of Camelot) and PlayerAuctions.com (search "EQ" for EverQuest).


    According to standard conceptions of economic value (see the subjective theory of value [wikipedia.org]), the goods and services of synthetic economies are endowed with real value. The value of a good is determined by its users, and is measured by their willingness to give up resources to obtain it. MUD users are willing to devote both time and Earth currency to obtaining synthetic goods, making these digital assets as real as any assets on Earth.
    • The value of a good is determined by its users

      In the case of a game, goods only have value if the creators made the choice to make virtual goods artificially scarce, since that's what people are used to in the real world at the present point in time.

      What would be interesting is to see a game model a post-nanotech economy of abundance, where any object can be copied almost as easily and cheaply as data. What would be valuable then would be the fundamental scarcities: space, energy, time, and intelligence

  • Aw mom, I don't want to play EQ! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Sage Gaspar ( 688563 ) on Saturday August 09, 2003 @06:04PM (#6656775)
    I have mixed reactions about analyzing MMORPGs as microcosms of the real world. First thing, half of the people playing them are below the age of 25 and a significant amount below 18, and almost all are drawn from middle to upper class backgrounds. The account names given with the credit card numbers might say otherwise (how often do kids under 13 check the "I'm a kid under 13" box?), but I'm not buying it. Secondly, the MMORPG market is still one specific sector of gamers, despite their success. The pool of players behind the characters does not include a proportionate amount of elderly people, non-technophiles, and the less nerdy. Yes, there are a lot of examples to the contrary, but in general you're drawing your players from the nerdy youths of the populace. So any speculations made about society based on MMORPGs can only really be used to accurately predict how a stereotypically (and in reality) more socially inept and fiscally sound portion of the population will react in a given situation. Additionally, I would hate to see MMORPGs turned into work. They're already moving that way with account and character selling, plus the leveling treadmill already in place to hook in addicts. I can see this going in a bad direction. "Billy, your sister made $500 selling her Dark Elf Cleric on EQ2 last week! Why aren't you working as hard as she is?" "Aw, mom, I just want to go outside and play! Don't make me go on EverQuest again!"
    • They're not microcosms of the *entire* real world. But they are microcosms of a part of society - the part that isn't all that far removed from the readers of Slashdot. To ignore the opportunity to study a socially semi-isolated population altogether, given the proper caveats, would be silly.

      Besides, the differences between the general populace and that represented in MMOGs is already known [nickyee.com].

      • But there are zero controls in MMORPGs and zero accountability. The site you linked to has facts and figures. They obtained those "facts" from a voluntary questionaire given over the Internet. I don't have to go into the problems with voluntary response polls, but the Internet also offers a perfect chance for complete anonymity. None of that information, or very little of it, is directly verifiable.

        Now, you could go out on a limb and say "Well, people responding to a voluntary response poll on the Int
      • Lol, I like this [nickyee.com] image: Most men are single, but most women are married. Who are they married to? :)

        (yes, I know that graph doesn't represent the entire population of the planet; the married women are married to men who weren't polled)
    • I have mixed reactions about analyzing MMORPGs as microcosms of the real world.

      I think you're absolutely right about this. Just about the most important discovery you could ever make about synthetic economies is that a principal that applies in the real world also applies to these possible microcosms... On the other hand, you couldn't EVER extrapolate what you learned from say SWG's economy to our real economy because there's such a statistical bias in the sample/population.

      Add to this the fact that ec

  • None have worked (Score:5, Interesting)

    by mao che minh ( 611166 ) * on Saturday August 09, 2003 @06:15PM (#6656804) Journal
    After three years of playing different MMOGs, if there is any one thing that I am certain of it is that all virtual economies are faulted by a common flaw: programs and systems have flaws that can and will be exploited, and that the artificial adjustments demanded to repair them never work, because at the very moment an artificial adjustment is required the naturalality of the economy ceases.

    For an example, just look at the dismal failure that each "fix" was to Ultima Online's economy. As soon as the developers started "fixing" things, the economy ceased being a natural evolution, and instead a predictable system that the cheaters began to utilize. Anyone that did not make full use of each new exploit could not compete. Everyone left, and all UO is left with is about thirty or so thousand people engaged in an never ending cycle of beating the system. If Origin had just started booting the cheaters than they would still have a viable product.

    • Re:None have worked (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Uncle Ira ( 586682 )
      That's a good point, but don't overlook the fact that real-wold economies also have flaws that can and will be exploited. Anyone that has made use of a tax loophole or laundered money is filling the role of the "cheaters" in your example.

      Taking your example further, you could say that our "developers" (economists and policymakers) are making changes to the system as well as "booting" the most flagrant cheaters- that's what prison sentences are for.

    • This corresponds even more closely to reality. Governments set the rules, (including taxes). People and Companies game these rules, resulting in the government issuing a new fix (new law/new tax), and so on. The only differences: governments don't have as complete a control as above (though they have the responsibility) and companies and people find it more difficult to leave in real life.
  • ... I've played Asheron's Call for about 3 years now (I know it's a little out dated at this point). The attraction of the game has always been that it provides an opportunity to escape from the real world for a couple of hours now and again.

    If economies start to merge, or the line between game and reality blur then the game becomes less and less attractive.

    In the AC world there have been a number of people who have turned to eBay to auction off items that they have come by in game, many of these people h
  • It's difficult to admit, but this is the same kind of wishful thinking that went on during the Linux market hype days of the late nineties.

    It's just illogical to do this kind of statistical analysis with the "true believers" in an already infinitesimal portion of the market.

    That's not to say that new, admittedly odd, paradigms cannot develop with new technology. This is less transportation and communication though, and more to doodoo with economics. That is why this seems incredibly far-fetched IMHO.

  • Maybe rather than fight the way things are panning out, the game companies should be charging cash for things that players wish to buy in the world. If prices were not outrageous I think people would pay. As it is I am paying $25 every 3 months for an EQ account I don't use anymore (lazy me). I bet they would make more money by eliminating monthly use fees and instead charging small amounts for items from some vendors. I believe that they would have far more players if they didn't REQUIRE cash for regular p
    • Variants of this has actually been tried out, with varying results. Note that you have to be *really* careful at what you are actually selling. I can give some examples and reasons why they are good/bad. The general feeling I've got after years of playing and talking about this is that a lot of consumers despite it because it goes against the reasons they play games in the first place. You generally don't want games to be influenced by RL, because, well, they are games.

      Project Entropia
      Real money could be

  • Science, unfortunately, disagrees with this guy. (Score:2, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward
    His assertion that gender identity is a "choice" rather than an endowment is neatly contradicted by the relevant scientific disciplines. GENDER IDENTITY IS NOT A CHOICE. Gender EXPRESSION is a choice; nevertheless, you cannot "choose" if you want to feel like a man or a woman.

    I am transsexual myself. I am a registered SlashDot user, but because of the widespread public prejudices and misconceptions (e.g. that we are all gay, cross-dressers, "faggots", "sinners", etc.) I am posting anonymously.

    Gender i
  • Ted has some interesting thoughts, particularly how online game-based economics (Star Wars Galaxies, EverQuest, Lineage, etc.) will eventually serve as the bases for "real governments."

    That's great. In the future, a 13-year-old named "a55ha1rZ" who bots 24 hours a day is going to be a government heavyweight.

    • you think real politicians ahve any more credentials or any less greed?

      i only have one word to back this up: California

      PS arnold is running with arriana huffington also known as Satan's Lap Dog from politically incorrect w/ bill maher (sp) before he got canned for saying we're cowards for using cruise missles..
  • games pose a problem that highlights the inadequacy of a purely scientific, mathematical, objectivist, positivist approach.

    Anyone who doesn't realize that games are an object of mathematics doesn't deserve my time.
    • games pose a problem that highlights the inadequacy of a purely scientific, mathematical, objectivist, positivist approach.

      Anyone who doesn't realize that games are an object of mathematics doesn't deserve my time.


      What about the game Go? While mathematics is key to winning, I'm not sure it *all* be reduced to that?
  • ...online game-based economics ... will eventually serve as the bases for "real governments."

    That's assuming that those in power are in the market for a better way to do things - pretty questionable assumption in my book.
    • Wait, wait. Hear him out. I mean, how cool would it be to assassinate a major political figure, and have him drop a +12 Halberd of Illumination? Or George Bush takes down Saddam Hussein, and nets himself a few million in gold... wait, never mind. That's the way it works already. :)

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