The Hacker Behind "Hacking the Xbox" 178
chromatic writes "ONLamp has just published an interview with Andrew "Bunnie" Huang, author of Hacking the Xbox. Bunnie discusses the effect of the DMCA on his work and the state of Xbox hacking as he sees it."
Hacking an XBox should be legal, and perfectly so. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Hacking an XBox should be legal, and perfectly (Score:2)
Re:Hacking an XBox should be legal, and perfectly (Score:2)
Why bother unless you're looking to play pirated games? You can get a much better PC system for a couple hundred bucks that'll be faster and not have to "hack" it.
Re:Hacking an XBox should be legal, and perfectly (Score:2)
An Xbox could be an incredibly fun toy to play with in this respect. "Hacking It" is not a chore to most of us here, but an enjoyable activity.
Re:Why preclude a modified razor blade strategy? (Score:1, Insightful)
Oh, you mean 'dumping'. Such a practice is immoral and in some cases (that means 'not all'), it is illegal. In some countries (big ones, not the ones smaller than my backyard), it is illegal entirely. And no, there is no right to play pirated games, but there is a right to run every LEGAL piece of software on your XBOX, which excludes my pirated copy of Halo, but does certainly not exclude Linux.
Re:Why preclude a modified razor blade strategy? (Score:5, Insightful)
And the after the fact part is substantial. You payed money for a substantial physical peice of property - and by that element, you "own" that particular physical peice of property. There is no license, you are not reproducing it or taking from the manufacturer's IP and redistributing it, you are "tweaking" it to suit your own needs.
The prevalent attitude on
The DMCA is the problem here, not the product that is being shipped, because without the law, they still would be producing and selling XBOX's, presumably exactly as they currently are. The legal implication that what I own outright is under someone else's terms and condtions is the prevalent problem frequently disussed here on
Re:Why preclude a modified razor blade strategy? (Score:5, Insightful)
Anyways... The producer has the right to produce and offer a product for whatever terms it feels satisfactory, but remember that it's for sale. If I buy an XBox, the very presumption by Microsoft that they have any miniscule right to control what I do with it is ludicrous. This is not concerning copyright infringement or anything similar. I legally own the XBox and should theoretically possess the right to use it as I see fit. (Yeah, yeah, assuming not illegal, dangerous, terroristic activity, etc..)
Does this mean Microsoft should not have the right to attempt to secure it? Of course not. If Microsoft wants to obfuscate the XBox to hell so that nobody would want to program for it, I don't care. They obviously have the right. This is irrelevent to the fact that I can do whatever I want with my property, and if somebody wants to put 200 hours into writing a pong emulator for, more power to them.
Finally, your argument seems flawed in the simple fact that the economy isn't run around what is good for Microsoft. We have a capitalistic economy last I checked, and if Microsoft's business plan is sinking faster than the Edmund Fitzgerald, why is it a good thing to have repressive laws that allow Microsoft to perpetuate this? The consumer buys what the consumer wants. If Microsoft can't pull a profit because the consumer wants Sony games, Microsoft needs to get with the program. -dave
EVEN illegal, dangerous, terroristic activity (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:EVEN illegal, dangerous, terroristic activity (Score:2)
Actually, in the US, there are laws that hit you with increased mandatory sentences if you USE a gun in a drug crime. In one case, a guy did a lot more hard time because he USED a gun by trading it
They should make you sign a contract then (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Why preclude a modified razor blade strategy? (Score:4, Insightful)
One possible reason why it should not be legal to hack the XBox and run non-MS games or Linux on it is that it would effectively preclude Microsoft from adopting a modified razor blade strategy
Selling a product at a loss does not give you a right to make a profit. If Gillete's razors were (apart from being razors) also very good at cleaning dirt from hooves (or whatever), people might have used it for that, and that alone and Gilette would have been lost to history.
He gambled on his product and he won - big time. Good for him!
If one insists that one has a "right" to hack the XBox and run Sony games or Linux on it, Microsoft's response may be to raise the price of the XBox to at least the level of its marginal cost. Thus, consumers will wind up paying more for the same product. As a result, demand will go down, and this may result in unemployment and/or reduced wages.
This is the most absurd argument yet. Buying an XBox makes me responsible for Microsofts profit and potential loss of jobs??
What if I buy an XBox and use it as a door-stop. Am i now obliged to buy XBox games which I will never use, because otherwise Microsoft will have it's right to profit empeded? Or is not buying products you don't need unpatriotic now?
but instead must offer that good or service to you on terms you feel are satisfactory, or not at all.
this is in fact how sales work, if you don't agree with the terms there is no sale and this goes for both the selling and the buying side.
Instead, many insist on the right to unilaterally modify the terms and conditions of sale -- after the fact.
So right and yet so wrong. The sale is already done! These people have bought an XBox from Microsoft, who agreed to sell it to them at a loss. Microsof has no right to demand how people use their products, especially not -- after the fact.
And do you know why? (Score:5, Interesting)
"The attitude appears to be that a producer does not have a right to produce and offer for sale a good or service on the terms it deems satisfactory, but instead must offer that good or service to you on terms you feel are satisfactory, or not at all."
Yes, because it is we who set the terms on which those privileged entities, corporations, may profit and prosper within our great nation.
Corporations are permitted to exist in that manner which and only for a time which pleases us and benefits us.
Do you understand perfectly what we are saying? Corporate and powerful private interests have no right or expectation to exploit the great majority that they might raise themselves up over and against their peers.
The state of things is as it is only so far and for so long as we permit it to be. These corporate and powerful private interests have nothing we have not allotted them for a time and for limited purposes, and through our rich democratic process we may just as easily take it again from them when and so far as they abuse it.
We are not pawns. We control our own destiny. Our rights will be respected.
Re: Why can't ms make ms only hardware (Score:2)
If they want to make ms only hardware then they can rent or lease it and handle the cost of churn and upkeep themselves. Why don't they?
Because it is not worth it. That must mean that ms only hardware is not worth doing past what they are doing right now.
Simple really.
Re:Why preclude a modified razor blade strategy? (Score:1)
There is no argument that can be made that any company has a right to have their marketing strategy or business model succeed. If my business model is that I develop my own cologne and require a license for people to smell it, then sue everyone who uses an unlicensed nose to smell my cologne, I have no right to have that model succeed. I have the right to try it, but
Re:Why preclude a modified razor blade strategy? (Score:5, Insightful)
Philosopically, the simple answer to your question is property rights. If I pay the 200 dollars for that physical piece of hardware then I own it. The plastic case? Mine. The GPU? Mine. The CPU? Mine. The only thing in that chunk of crap that wouldn't be mine is the code in the firmware. Even then, the only things I really can't do with it is distribute copies or derivative works.
If I can make that chunk of crap + firmware behave in ways it isn't designed to well.....it's mine isn't it? As long as I paid for as in not rented that X-Box and don't use illegal copies of games then I have done nothing unethical.
There is nothing sacred about a business model. Business models do not trump property rights. Since I can buy (not rent) an X-Box in ordinary retail establishments then I have every right to do whatever I want with it. The person behind the cash register doesn't make me sign a contract before I walk out with it.
If MS raises the price on account of this and the apocalypse ensues, fine. That means it was a stupid business model. Does MS have a right to behave stupidly because they employ people? Was Digital Convergence entitled to millions because they gave cheesy bar-code scanners away with Shack catalogs? Every dot bomb business that went under had a business model. It didn't entitle them to anything and yes a lot of people lost their jobs over it. IT businesses got burned and the ones that survived got a bit wiser. Nobody seriously suggested forcing people to abdicate their property rights.
Your next thought may be "Don't buy an X-Box then if you won't use it the way MS intends". It's my money. It's those pesky individual property rights again. If I want to make a media player out of it then that is my business. If MS wants to diddle the X-Box to make that difficult, fine. But if I can get around the diddling then thats fine too.
Re:Hm - by the same token, the GNU license is usel (Score:2)
As long as you don't distribute the resulting code, you're within your rights to combine the two for personal use. Neat, eh? This is analogous to you console hacking for personal use rather than game piracy.
I buy a g
Goods vs. Service (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is that Microsoft is confusing "goods" with "service." In the case of software, it is intellectually questionable whether software is a particular thing, or just a license to use a concept that someone else has developed. Consequently, some software is "sold" and other software is "licensed."
Now consider a cell phone. I could go buy a SonyEricsson P800 for about $700. But without a service plan it would be a fairly useless device. Sure it can do 640x480 pictures and send them over bluetooth, but for $700 I expect a lot more. Instead, I buy a Nokia 3650 from ATT Wireless for $150 plus around $90 in monthly service fee (I talk on the phone a lot). ATT has locked my phone so that I cannot switch providers during the term of my contract. Since I'm getting a phone that is worth close to $700 for $150 and a monthly service fee, this is reasonable -- I still owe ATT some value for the use of their device.
Now consider a Rolex watch. Suppose the price of gold went up so much that it was profitable to buy Rolexes and melt them down for their gold. People would flock to jewelry stores to get the gold watches and sell off the gold. Rolex might be angry, but it is really their fault for not analyzing the gold market carefully enough.
Finally, consider an XBox. Microsoft wants to sell XBoxes for $199 so that you can play their $60 games. I want to open my XBox up and put Linux on it. It happens that Microsoft paid arund $350 to make each XBox, so if I don't buy a few games, MSFT loses out. Should I cry for Microsoft's lost profits? no.
Now if Microsoft had sold me the console for $199 plus a monthly fee I might consider using it according to MSFT's guidelines. They are selling a good but treating it like a service. I will continue to treat it like a good that I own. You can treat it like a service if you want.
Microsoft's biggest blunder here is not that they are treating a good like a service, but that they are alienating a small but influential portion of the gaming public. A few geeks want to open up their Xboxes and mess around with them. The vast majority of gamers are going to buy some Xbox games and make Microsoft even more money (once they get past the startup expenses, of course). If Microsoft took a more postivie attitude, XBox console and game sales would probably increase.
Re:Why preclude a modified razor blade strategy? (Score:2, Interesting)
Here's why. First, let's say that we're all OK with Microsoft, or any other company for that matter, making any kind of product they choose, and for any specific purpose.
Instead of talking about an Xbox and hacking it to do different things, I'd like to mention a few other things to
Re:Why preclude a modified razor blade strategy? (Score:5, Interesting)
Charge enough to cover your costs. What a novel idea. If I decide to buy an XBox at walmart right now, I get the XBox, a controller and two games. What if I decide not to buy anymore games? Those are the only two I want. What if I just want to copy all my CDs on to the XBox and use it to play all my music or DVDs? Not buy any games.
There is a great difference between building a business model with the consumers possible future needs in mind and building a business model with the consumers possible future needs as the primary avenue of money making.
If they want to sell me an XBox, fine. If they want to lease on to me, tell me at the store. Don't call it buying if I'm not allowed to use it as I see fit. Show me a contact that says I won't modify it. I promise you, I won't, but if I'm given new terms of agreement after I buy it, forget it. I'm doin it my way.
Course all I want to do with it, is okayed by Microsoft, so this was all just in theory....
Re:Why preclude a modified razor blade strategy? (Score:1)
Why? Why shouldn't Microsoft have the right to invest in, design, manufacture, and sell a game machine that will play only Microsoft games?
They do have that right. They can manufacture and design it any way they like. They are perfectly free to make it very hard to get Linux or whatever running on it.
Why should you have a "right" to hack such a machine and run non-MS games or Linux on it?
Because you bought it and paid for it. It is your property and you should be able to do what you want with your
Re:Why preclude a modified razor blade strategy? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Why preclude a modified razor blade strategy? (Score:2)
In some countries (eg., Australia) exporting product for less than it cost to prod
Re:Why preclude a modified razor blade strategy? (Score:2)
Pretty simple, really...
Re:Why preclude a modified razor blade strategy? (Score:2)
Microsoft has the right to make a game machine that only plays Microsoft games, but they didn't. They made a machine that can be made to play other things.
What you're asking is for us to ignore the reality of the situation, and indeed to make the law punish anyone who recognizes that reality.
XBox is getting kind of old... (Score:5, Insightful)
I know people are going to argue this, but by the time you consider the thousands upon thousands of man-hours put into trying to crack the thing, it's just not worth it.
Re:XBox is getting kind of old... (Score:3, Insightful)
Just go to Fry's (Score:4, Informative)
IANAFETG (I Am Not A Fry's Employee, Thank Goodness)
Re:Just go to Fry's (Score:1)
Trust me, that doesn't compare...
- Via C3 Samuel-2 GigaPro 800 Mhz Processor
Not bad for some stuff, but not a P3 733, that's for sure.
- 128 MB SDRAM
Well, this is more than the XBOX, so it wins there. But that doesn't speed it up enough...
- 30 GB Hard drive
Again, more than the XBOX, but doesn't make a difference to linux installation...
- 52x CDROM
It isn't a DVD-ROM, so crap
Re:Just go to Fry's (Score:1)
Re:Just go to Fry's (Score:1)
Re:XBox is getting kind of old... (Score:3, Interesting)
You can even buy a Shuttle barebones system for not much more. My XBox that I got last month ran $179.
So why did I get an XBox instead of just building a gaming computer? Because I want to play on my TV, with a nice controller, and have it work without upgrading software on my computer. I'm not a windows person. Windows pisses me off
Re:XBox is getting kind of old... (Score:5, Interesting)
Long in the tooth? Linux isn't the only reason to have an Xbox (gentoo installable in one or two mouseclicks on a modded xbox btw). I know it's karma suicide to praise Microsoft on slashdot ;) but your used machine from eBay isn't going to have half the quality TV output that the Xbox has. Xbox is one of the greatest things a shoddy company like Microsoft has ever produced. It means that the modded xbox I have sitting in my living room now plays xbox, psx, amiga, snes, megadrive and arcade games. It's hooked up to the LAN so I can listen to my mp3 collection or listen to shoutcast streams. I can stream videos from the LAN, or simply play them from the huge hard drive I now have installed. I can stick a CF memory card into my computer in the other room and we can all view the pictures taken earlier that day on a big screen TV.
All accessible from the couch via the xbox's dvd remote control.
Re:XBox is getting kind of old... (Score:2)
Re:XBox is getting kind of old... (Score:2)
Re:XBox is getting kind of old... (Score:2)
I don't want it to. I don't play games much, don't care about HDTV, and my equipment lives in a closet, form factor doesn't matter much. However, to each his own. I just need to point out that sometimes chasing the technology has a limit.
Re:XBox is getting kind of old... (Score:2)
XBox does sound kind of nifty though, particularly for the relatively compact size and the cost.
Re:XBox is getting kind of old... (Score:5, Insightful)
Obviously hardware hacking doesn't interest you, it clearly does interest him. Apply your comments to anybody else's hobby and see how they sound? How about my dad, he likes to fix cars. He spends long stretches of time working on his 68 Mustang. "68 Mustang is pretty long in the tooth. Carburator, AM radio, no power steering. By the time he gets the thing usable you could get a used car for cheaper." No shit!? Really!!! Someone tell my dad, quick, before he wastes any more time doing what he loves to do!
Re:XBox is getting kind of old... (Score:3, Funny)
Spoken like a true non-hacker.
Re: (Score:1)
Re:XBox is getting kind of old... (Score:1)
The *real* issue that makes the XBOX a pretty crappy Linux/desktop/server/anything-but-a-console is the 64 megabytes of memory -- more than enough for great looking games on a fixed platform, but rather lean for modern server or desktop work.
Re:XBox is getting kind of old... (Score:1)
-uso.
Re:XBox is getting kind of old... (Score:1)
Re:XBox is getting kind of old... (Score:1)
I wasn't going to comment on your post because you were right about the "box" being n
Re:XBox is getting kind of old... (Score:1)
And to who ever said that hacking an XBox should be legal, well, maybe so, but the law is the law, and therefor it isn't legal. M$ doesn't make $$$ on sales of the XBox, they make their $$$ on the games. SO if everyone goes and buys an XBox, and decides
Re:XBox is getting kind of old... (Score:1)
To use a phrase, Imagine a beowulf cluster of these if you will.
Admin'ing a cluster of these would be very easy as all the HD images would be almost identical.
Adding a Node or replacing a corrupt one would be a case of ghosting a HD not installing an OS.
Re:XBox is getting kind of old... (Score:2)
Uh...... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Uh...... (Score:2)
Re:Uh...... (Score:2)
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
Windows CE (Score:5, Insightful)
It did have a Windows CE logo, almost none of the game used it cause it's crap, and the reason the Dreamcast was such a cool platform was the SH-4 CPU and the fact that it required no modchip to boot games.
No it's not a conspiracy against Microsoft. Of course some people pirate games, but they always will, modchip or not.
There are actually people who enjoy fooling around with hardware.
Re:Windows CE (Score:2)
Re:Windows CE (Score:2)
--Hey Rocky, watch me pull a Rabbit out of muh hat!
?Again?
(+2 points if any of you get these old, wacky and obscure song references)
Re:Windows CE (Score:2)
Go on, say the name - I could use the publicity!
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Windows CE (Score:1)
AUF hack only used by linuxheads? (Score:2)
Once you boot linux through the AUF hack, can't you copy the files you need to boot the xbox from there? I mean that's how the swap trick works kinda, except you have linux running on some OTHER machine (booted from CD) with the proper patch for support for the Xbox's filesystem.
Re: (Score:2)
the state of xbox hacking (Score:1, Informative)
2) borrow/rent games and copy them
3) play copies of games
oh, and alternately
4) install linux
: p
Things like this book are still necessary: (Score:2)
News flash (Score:1, Funny)
Microsoft has just announced two security updates for the XBox gaming system. According to Microsoft, these exploits could be used to make you trip over your shoelaces in Halo.
The other vulnerability could let hackers fill your hard drive with MP3s over CmdrTaco singing.
The second patch is considered extremely important.
I don't get it... (Score:3, Insightful)
Why hack the xbox? I mean even if the boxes are being subsided by M$ it's still a crappy computer.
Only reason I see to hack the thing is to play cracked games...
If you want a cheap home server build a small, fanless (silent), low power consumption (cheap in the long run) VIA mini-itx (small and quite cheap) box.
+ Timesave NOT to hack the Xbox.
Re:I don't get it... (Score:5, Informative)
It's actualy cheaper to mod the xbox than build a mini-itx pc. Sounds like a pretty good reason to me. Plus, your xbox is already there sitting in the living room so it reduces the device count in the living room.
Re:I don't get it... (Score:3, Flamebait)
I see your problem -you are addicted to games, especially to cracked ones.
The world, my friend, is much bigger than a set of cracked games. And the life is more interesting than wasting your time on fighting games.
People are finding much more insightful feeling in something creative. Hacking the software code (don't confuse it with cracking someone's protection) is a very creative process and thus it brings very bright feelings.
I am not
No caps for this dude. (Score:1)
Can someon answer this question I've been having? (Score:4, Informative)
Re: Can someon answer this question I've been havi (Score:2)
Re: Can someon answer this question I've been havi (Score:4, Informative)
1. At CPU reset a hidden ROM image inside the chipset decrypts the main BIOS flash image. This is the key Bunnie found.
2. The BIOS image then decompresses and decrypts the extended BIOS image using a key different from the one used in step 1.
3. This extended BIOS then loads the kernel from disk and validates it using yet another different key.
4. The kernel then uses yet another key to validate the games loaded off DVD-ROM. This would be the key everybody is after.
It got picked up by NSP. (Score:4, Informative)
Re:It got picked up by NSP. (Score:2)
Re:It got picked up by NSP. (Score:1)
Buy the book and point out how wrong the DMCA is. (Score:2)
From the interview, Bunnie Huang said:
We should encourage people to buy the book in addition to getting their copy electronically (for those that haven't read the
Here is my problem wiht this: (Score:4, Insightful)
BH: Linux. I don't use my Xbox to play games.
I used to own a copy of Dead or Alive 3, but I gave that to a friend after I got bored of it. I also tried Halo once and bored of it pretty quickly. I tend to play the Nintendo GameCube the most; its games are the most fun. I am still working on beating the new Zelda.
Why would you buy one of these to put linux on? If your not playing games wiht it why not do one of the following:
1) Use a small older computer from ebay and install linux
2) Build a computer and install linux
3) Buy a PS2 with the Linux Kit
4) Buy a dreamcast and burn your linux boot cd
And even then WHAT IS THE POINT? It seems like people just do this because THEY CAN and are not asking whether they SHOULD be doing this?
And I still don;t see the use for it. What are you possibly going to do with Linux on an Xbox that you couldn't do with Linux on your computer?
enlighten me please.
Re:Here is my problem wiht this: (Score:1)
Re:Here is my problem wiht this: (Score:1, Insightful)
Let me enlighten you with this clue-bat.
*WHACK*
There. Good.
"It seems like people just do this because THEY CAN and are not asking whether they SHOULD be doing this?"
Sometimes good things come from tinkering. Sometimes they don't and seem pointless. For every good thing you hear about, you'll find 3-5 bad things that you don't.
Who knows. Maybe he learned alot about reverse engineering, its practice, and techniques. Maybe he can apply it to something else.
Maybe he can learn about s
Re:Here is my problem wiht this: (Score:1, Funny)
Not much of a hacker.. are you?
Re:Here is my problem wiht this: (Score:1)
Umm... yeah, very astute observation there. Thats why hackers do anything really...
and are not asking whether they SHOULD be doing this?
What other reason do they need besides the fact that they can? Why do people climb mount everest, because its there.
Re:Here is my problem wiht this: (Score:5, Insightful)
And I still don;t see the use for it. What are you possibly going to do with Linux on an Xbox that you couldn't do with Linux on your computer?
Because while your NES, Sega Master System and Atari 2600 went out with the trash when you were finally tired with them, an XBox can be modded and reused. Maybe by the time you're ready to junk it, you'll find you could really use a firewall, network storage appliance, Linux PVR, etc., and it'll get a second chance at life.
Re:Here is my problem wiht this: (Score:1)
Excellent!!
Re:Here is my problem wiht this: (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Here is my problem wiht this: (Score:2, Insightful)
That is the whole point, doing it because you CAN. Some people like the challenge involved, seeing if they can 'outsmart' the designers. Others just like to tinker with things.
Re:Here is my problem wiht this: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Here is my problem wiht this: (Score:3, Interesting)
Bingo. That is the point. We geeks hack x-boxes for the same reason people climb Mt. Everest. Because it's there, because we can hack it, and because we have fun doing it. There doesn't need to be any other reason.
Re:Here is my problem wiht this: (Score:2, Insightful)
What, should they not? These guys aren't patching together corpses and giving them inhuman life. They're messing around with computer hardware. The most they'll get out of it is a funny looking computer. There are plenty of more dangerous hobbies you could be complaining about.
Re:Here is my problem wiht this: (Score:1)
Re:Here is my problem wiht this: (Score:4, Insightful)
1)Use a small older computer from ebay and install linux
2) Build a computer and install linux
They won't be as fast or as quiet or as compact, discrete and good looking.
Buy a PS2 with the Linux Kit
Buy a dreamcast and burn your linux boot cd
Won't be as fast.
And I still don;t see the use for it. What are you possibly going to do with Linux on an Xbox that you couldn't do with Linux on your computer?
You can leave it sitting in your living room. It looks great. It's not a replacement for your desktop computer. Unlike the PC equivalents, the software (Mame, Xbox media player etc) are all designed to be controlled using an xbox controller so the GUIs are much more appropriate and easier to use when you're sitting back on your couch.
Not everyone wants to huddle in front of a PC to watch a movie or play an arcade game.
This is why! (Score:5, Interesting)
the cool thing is... (Score:2, Insightful)
Will kernel 2.6 include Zapper support?
Would KDE or Gnome have cooler support for that...
True, but ... (Score:1)
Re:the cool thing is... (Score:1)
whatever happend.... (Score:1)
Re:whatever happend.... (Score:4, Funny)
Is anyone else afraid? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Is anyone else afraid? (Score:2)
Re:Now in book form (Score:2)
No, but it does include your Amazon account number... posted in a story about hacking too ;)
Re:Now in book form (Score:2)
Thank you. You made my evening. Laughed my ass off.
Re:xbox is dead... (Score:2)
Re:xbox is dead... (Score:2)
I think the XX-Box is a lot more fun to play with.
(sorry)
Re:honestly... anyone clustering these for website (Score:1, Informative)
Re:Xbox Live - Upgraded dashboard = antimod (Score:2)