PC RPGs - Time To Man The Lifeboats? 84
Thanks to GameBanshee for their editorial, written by former Black Isle designer Damien Foletto, discussing how PC RPGs can survive the console role-playing game's popularity surge. He explains that console-originated RPG successes such as Star Wars: Knights Of The Old Republic are a boon: "There is no denying that SW:KOTOR's open-endedness, character creation, and story are heavily influenced by PC RPG development." This, he suggests, helps everyone out in the long run: "When these gamers are exposed to the deeper intricacies of RPG game play, and if they enjoy it, then they are more likely to pursue similar gaming experiences. This may eventually lead them to PC RPGs, or it might just make them more demanding for deeper console RPGs." Elsewhere, the rise of the console RPG is backed up by a new 'GameSpotting' editorial naming their favorite RPGs of 2003, all of which originated on consoles.
KotOR's just a PC RPG that came out early on XBox (Score:1)
Re:KotOR's just a PC RPG that came out early on XB (Score:2, Funny)
Re:KotOR's just a PC RPG that came out early on XB (Score:5, Insightful)
This whole talk about a genre being at deaths door is nothing new. Every few months, some website or magazine says "(Insert genre here) is dead, consoles have killed it." Then every year we get "PC gaming is dead. Consoles killed it."
It's all bollocks. The fact is, to most people I know, the console RPG's are NOT really RPG's at all. They're no more RPG's than say Tomb Raider or Crash Bandicoot. At best you get to rename yourself. All of sudden there's one title on the XBox that's barely above average (KOTOR, and yes, I've played it. It's tedious) and suddenly the PC RPG genre is dying...
What a crock...
Re:KotOR's just a PC RPG that came out early on XB (Score:3, Funny)
(shakes head)
Nevermind
Re:KotOR's just a PC RPG that came out early on XB (Score:2)
PC vs RPG consoles? (Score:5, Insightful)
Then again the very western game Planescape Torment had a small number of party members wich you interacted with strongly and strong story with relativly few subquests. It is widely thought by pc users to be the best rpg ever. Perhaps a happy hybrid could emerge.
So I think for this at least pc and console can exist happily together as long as developers take care to tune the game to the different platforms. So USE the keyboard. USE the HD for easy saving. USE the bloody mouse, yes I am talking to you Final Fantasy. Kotor did it pretty well although the interface graphics were a bit large for a pc monitor. No need for inch tall text thank you very much.
I have no idea what is needed to make a game work on a console as I am a pc snob.
Re:PC vs RPG consoles? (Score:1)
On my 21" CRT in 1600x1200 the interface is quite small and unobtrusive.
it's not East vs West (Score:5, Interesting)
I think the main cause of the popularity explosion is developers are finally finding the western-styled rpg market in the console arena. They're learning that you can sell console players Morrowind and Knights of the Old Republic.
The only reason that these rpgs weren't on consoles in the past has been storage. Consoles prior to this generation didn't have enough storage to handle the content without having to switch a multitude of discs, something the average player does not want to do. Nor did they have appropriate storage for the massive save-game sizes western RPGs are known to generate.
Now however, that roadblock is gone (at least for the xbox this generation, and probably all systems in the next). It is only natural that RPG developers, the guys who always cared about story over all else, are gravitating toward the platform that lets them concentrate even more on story, and not worry about minimum system requirements, or compatibility.
RPGs on the PC will survive this turn in popularity like all other PC-gaming genres, sports, shooters, et al. They'll shrink in market share, but remain. I don't think PC gaming will ever die, just as mac gaming has never died. But it certainly will lose the edge it has held in the past.
with PCs losing their last vestiges of hardware advantage over consoles (namely harddrives and network adapters), there is less and less justification for publishers to ignore the console market under some illusion of console-gamer predisposition to action.
Re:it's not East vs West (Score:1)
I'm sorry but that scares the hell out of me. Mac gaming is not dead, but it has been on life support for about a decade. The occasional first person shooter or Blizzard game does NOT qualify as alive.
I TRULY fear the day that PC gaming becmes like mac gaming.
Re:it's not East vs West (Score:2)
Don't forget Ambrosia (Score:1)
Rob
Re:it's not East vs West (Score:4, Insightful)
1) Wide spread High Definition TV ownership in the home, and support for this on consoles. Could you imagine playing a strategy game on a TV compared to on a monitor? The same goes for many RPGs and FPPs in my opinion
2) Availability AND use of keyboards and mouse on Consoles. I don't mean just having them available as an option for a game. I mean games that are designed for them from the start and require their use.
3) Developers that will take a chance on making a game that MAY not be a huge seller on a console, but may be for a niche market. This is rare with console developers (but is sadly becoming rarer wih PC developers as well).
Get these three and maybe I won't miss my PC gaming. Don't get it, and I'll stick it out on the PC, and still avoid the consoles (at least until they drop to $100 per machine).
Re:it's not East vs West (Score:3, Insightful)
Taking a modern PC RPG and porting it towards a console is an undertaking. Inventory is a chore, forget spellcasting and conversation trees become impossible. Can it be done? Yeah, but not easily.
T
Re:it's not East vs West (Score:1)
I think a company wou
Re:it's not East vs West (Score:2)
It sorta bugs that the Eye Toy can sell (argh... it's like karoke gaming) and something like a mouse hasn't happened yet.
Re:it's not East vs West (Score:2)
Re:it's not East vs West (Score:2)
some games likely do better with a keyboard and mouse, simply because they have more, accessible keys for binding and various use. Real-time strategy games and realistic vehicle sims accentuate the usefulness of the keyboard -- no other genre does.
quite frankly i've seen more PC games with bad user interfaces than console games. Having that many buttons available is generally an invitation for disaster. For an RPG, where twitch is not necessary, ha
Re:it's not East vs West (Score:2)
Then I turned on joystick controls and hooked up a PS2 controller via my PSX->USB adaptor. Suddenly it was playable again! The game was REALLY designed around a joypad, though the PS2 version (much like UT for PS2) supports a mouse and keyboard if you hook them up to
Re:it's not East vs West (Score:1)
Bzzt! Ever heard of Nippon Ichi, who has made most of their bread and butter making hardcore strategy RPGS? There are more, but I expect most of them are Japanese.
Re:it's not East vs West (Score:1)
Not to mention, did this title you mention make it to the US/Europe? Japanese developers DO take more risks when releasing for Japan, but will RARELY do so when bringing it to non-Japanese markets.
Re:it's not East vs West (Score:2)
No offense, but you have NO idea what you are talking about with consoles. The biggest console(s) of every generation feature plenty of risky niche games. Just look at how many 'new' genres created in the last five or so years were made for consoles vs. PCs - it is pretty much a landslid
We'll find out with Jade Empire (Score:1)
With regard to Knights of the Old Republic breaking new ground (I don't count Morrowind as it doesn't have anywhere as much buzz KotOR seems to have from what I can tell), I think it is a bit early to decide that Western RPGs are seeing a rise in interest. Is it the quality of KotOR that is drawing the console crowd or is it the "Star Wars" branding? We'll find out when Bioware releases their X-Box exclusive game, Jade Empire.
I don't think RPG developers are moving to consoles because there's a burgeoning
Re:it's not East vs West (Score:1)
Size of famous PC RPG "Morrowind": 1 CD.
Size of famous PC RPG "Neverwinter Nights": 3 CDs.
Size of famous console RPG "Final Fantasy 7": 3 CDs.
Size of famous console RPG "Final Fantasy 8": 4 CDs.
Re:it's not East vs West (Score:2)
Contrast that with the PC RPG dics you listed and you'll find most of the dics are taken up with engine, content, textures and sound. The level of graphical detail and speech d
Re:it's not East vs West (Score:4, Insightful)
1) PCs are capable of displaying graphics several magnitudes better than a console. 1600x1200 in 32bit color with 16xAF and 8xAA vs. 480 interlaced (only displaying 240 lines). HDTV can display higher resolutions (notably 480p, 720p, and 1080i), but the only console that supports 720p is the Xbox, and its hardware isn't powerful enough to handle it for most games. Also, there is no HDTV standard, and since it doesn't look like HD will make the jump anytime soon, it will be a very long time before consoles can catch up to the PC in graphic quality.
2) Player made content. Please note that Counter Strike, possibly the most popular game ever (second only to Starcraft), is a player made module. Unless Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo decide to include developer kits along with their consoles (and developers decide to support player made content), this gigantic draw will remain on the PC.
The first two are *fact*. The third is my opinion.
3) I cannot abide console controls for certain genres - namely, First-person Shooters and Real-time Strategy games. They do not provide for the same level of precision as a mouse o trackball. I am aware that such devices are or could become available for consoles, but then you have the issue of what to put them on. Put yourself behind a desk, and now you're playing on a low-end PC with bad graphics and no potential for player-made content.
Those who predict that the days of the PC RPG are coming to an end seem to be unable to recognize Morrowind, NWN, MMOGs, and a host of other excellent titles that debuted last year. This argument comes and goes, but I've seen neither PCs nor consoles permanently decline in popularity.
-lw
Re:it's not East vs West (Score:4, Interesting)
2. player-made content is huge, I'll grant you that. but it can be done, particularly with the harddrives and network access. true, a publisher still has to decide to do it, but it is not an option that must be taken off the shelf if a developer decides to develop for the console.
3. the controls for a RTS simply don't work on a controller. I'll grant you that. Goblin Commander for the xbox has a pretty interesting approach that works fairly well, but it would break down long before you got to managing the number of units that *craft games handle easily.
I do however disagree with your FPS control opinion. I was a strict PC FPS fan for quite some time. But I bought an xbox (initially for mod-potential, but lo and behold: it's got worthwhile games too).
And frankly, I hated the controls as I played Halo for about the first 4 hours. Of course it's not as 'precise' as a mouse or trackball, but i'm starting to wonder whether that matters? Varying display sizes and varying polling-rates on PC FPS create some of the biggest discrepancies with player potential in those games. Yes, you will hit your target more often with mouse+kb. But if you can do well enough with a controller, and the playing field is level, does it really matter?
Clearly personal preference keeps many PC FPS fans from ever considering the console, and I'd never consider any opinion or preference 'wrong' -- but I don't think the control scheme for console FPS is deficient in any manner.
the RPG market overall is certainly growing - but of considerable interest is the way the console market for western-styled RPGs ballooned this past year.
As I said, I doubt any gaming market will die (i predict no 'end' for anything) and indeed due market growth overall I think they'll probably all continue to expand.
But I do believe the rate of expansion, and the total market size will be shifted in favor of console RPGs rather than PC RPGs in the coming years.
Re:it's not East vs West (Score:2)
Unfortunately, I can't see that trend continuing with display (unless console manufacturers decide that the majority of their audience has access to HD TV) - without higher resolutions, increasing graphics detail eventually becomes moot. T
Re:it's not East vs West (Score:2)
But I believe that western-style RPGs will grow much faster on the console than they will on the PC, and they will eventually (relatively soon) eclipse the PC market as the preferred platform.
Excepting, of course, games that already thrive on player-made content. Which, while technically possible, I conc
Re:it's not East vs West (Score:2)
Do you mean combined - as in, all three major consoles vs. PC? Because once developers start an Xbox version, it is extremely likely that they'll go the extra step to the PC.
Note that the two most popular games on the Xbox - Halo and KotOR - were intended to be PC releases, and were shanghaied by M$ft.
If you're talking about any single console having a larger market that the PC - well, I just don't believe it and you'll have to provide numbers =)
But those single
Re:it's not East vs West (Score:2)
and the point of not simply automatically adding a pc port, is that (i believe) the PC will be an increasingly small slice of the overall market, and (its been proven) the costs for compatibility testing, performance testing and support are orders of magnitude higher.
naturally all the super-popular games will get ported to as ma
Re:it's not East vs West (Score:2)
Not true!
From the FAQ at the Linux for Playstation 2 community website [playstation2-linux.com]
Which Display Resolutions are supported ?
* NTSC/PAL interlaced and non-interlaced
* DTV 480P, 720P and 1080I modes
* VESA modes 640x480, 800x600, 1024x768, 1280x1024 at 60/75 Hz
Re:it's not East vs West (Score:2)
-lw
Re:it's not East vs West (Score:2)
I don't buy that, because "Western" RPGs were being made back on the Apple II and Commodore 64 -- Ultimas 1-5, the Wizardry series, SunDog, El
Re:it's not East vs West (Score:3, Insightful)
Dragon Warrior became the most popular video game in the world after it came out. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that a lot of console developers wanted to capitalize on this success, so they made games that were similar to Dragon Warrior in scope, like Final Fantasy.
And so it has been for over 15 years. Therefore, the question is not why console RPGs are different from
Re:it's not East vs West (Score:2)
Excellent points!
Re:PC vs RPG consoles? (Score:5, Informative)
In Torment there were a lot of choices you could make for your character, including his class (fighter, mage, theif), which you could change during the course of the game. You could also join one of the many factions which brought along its advantages and disadvantages.
Although the core of your party is primarily the same, there are a few characters that if brought in (or not brought it) can greatly affect the outcome near the end of the game.
It's not as open ended as Baldur's Gate, but I really think it's the hybrid you're looking for.
I probably would rate it as the best PC RPG I've ever played, followed by Baldur's Gate (I and II) and Darklands.
Re:PC vs RPG consoles? (Score:2)
Re:PC vs RPG consoles? (Score:2)
Exactly. There were times I was actually itching to fight in Torment. In Baldur's Gate it's more annoying than anything.
Re:Piracy (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Piracy (Score:2)
The ratio of pirated to legitimate console games is a lot lower than the ratio of pirated to legitimate PC games.
Re:Piracy (Score:1)
Re:Piracy (Score:2)
(Arr, avast and ahoy ther, matey!)
And I hope to be seeing in metamod the dumbass who modded the above post Flamebait.
Re:Piracy (Score:3, Interesting)
The problem for publishers is that the first group is no
Re:Piracy (Score:2)
Mods? (Score:1)
Think.
Re:Piracy (Score:1)
Re:Piracy (Score:2)
Re:Piracy (Score:2)
Re:Piracy (Score:2)
Re:Piracy (Score:1)
Elder Scrolls! (Score:2, Interesting)
I know it was mentioned earlier that consoles favour the eastern style linear plotline and story elements, and yes, PC's don't, but this is because the PC is a very powerful instrument.
With vast amounts of memory and storage space, larger and more intricate virtual worlds can be created.
Take Morrowind for example. The world design was so intricate that you could walk into just about
Re:Elder Scrolls! (Score:1)
Re:Elder Scrolls! (Score:1)
I know it's virtually impossible - there's no way to simulate a real DM in a computer. MMORPG could do it, but they have a massiveness that is difficult to get in to once the game has been launched. Neverwinter Nights had the promise, but it sadly turned out to be just another RPG on a pc. (Ok, I haven't played it with a DM yet, so that might be different)
I'm waiting f
Re:Elder Scrolls! (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Elder Scrolls! (Score:1)
Re:Elder Scrolls! (Score:2)
The reality is that Morrowind on the XBox sold enough copies to be rereleased as part of the Platinum Hits series, and sold enough that the expansions were released with the original game as the Morrowind Game of The Year version. Whether the people around you like it or not bears li
Re:Elder Scrolls! (Score:1)
Re:Elder Scrolls! (Score:2)
Re:Elder Scrolls! (Score:1)
Uh, what? (Score:1)
What kind of console players have you been hanging around? Moreover, what kind of console games have you played? Do you realize that most console RPGs allow you to "become a go
yeah.. why isn't Morrowind in the 2003 top 10.. (Score:1)
Lesser Consoles? (Score:3, Interesting)
True, Baldur's Gate - Dark Alliance was just plain dumb in comparison with it's PC-counterparts (though still highly enjoyable and a good game in it's own right). But console players do not need to be exposed to the "deeper intricacies of RPG game play". As if the Final Fantasy's, Xenogears, Suikoden's, Dark Chronicle (Dark Cloud 2 US), and even Mario & Luigi - Superstar Saga didn't provide proper RPG gameplay.
Both PCs and consoles have brilliant RPGs in their own right. Planescape: Torment and Final Fantasy VI both stick out for me. The different approaches both use are wonderful. Why would you ever want to get rid of one side of it? Unfortunately I'm not a Star Wars-fan, but what I've picked up about KOTOR seems to imply it's one of those RPGs which uses a blend of PC- and console-RPG styles.
Isn't that to be celebrated instead of critisized?
Re:Lesser Consoles? (Score:1)
I actually enjoyed it more. But I consider it a dungeon crawl, pure and simple.
What most impressed me is that they managed to get a game which made extensive use of the keyboard on a PC and left the controls lacking nothing on the console port. It was a dream to control and a lot of fun to play.
PC RPGs still have more depth to gameplay, character c
Dungeon Crawls... And Then Some (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Dungeon Crawls... And Then Some (Score:2)
Don't worry, you're not the only one. We're just not as vocal as the fans of the game.
Aw, Dang (Score:1)
Re:Dungeon Crawls... And Then Some (Score:2, Insightful)
Don't forget the other major two attractors for the PC over the console:
As usual... (Score:2)
If PCRPG fanatics comprised just one percent of the US population, that would still be more than 2 million people. I suspect it's probably less than that, but not by much.
RPGs (Score:2)
If you want a classic style RPG, you're actually better off playing on a console. Like the old Gold-box games? Play Final Fantasy Tactics Advance or Disgaea. Like Wizardry? (Actually
Re:RPGs (Score:1)
Or do you think they HAVE to be dungeon crawls? Is Pool of Radiance (the original) a better RPG than Baldur's Gate 2? If you think so, end of conversation...
Re:RPGs (Score:2)
I actually didn't like Pool of Radiance all that much. Now Cure of the Azure Bonds I loved. And yes, they are better RPGs than BG 2.
I just don't like that style of combat. I like it more strategic than tactical.
Re:RPGs (Score:2, Interesting)
Wizardry: Tale of the Forsaken Land [gamefaqs.com] for the PlayStation 2 was an absolutely excellent old-school (I can create my ENTIRE 6-character party however I like) dungeon-crawl. I absolutely loved it.
Even PC RPGs lately have been getting away from the multi-character stats-based games that I loved as a kid. The old TSR gold box games, Bard's Tales, and especially Wasteland. Anyone who thinks that it beg
Re:RPGs (Score:2)
Re:RPGs (Score:2)
PC - RPG versus MMORPG? (Score:2, Interesting)
I speak from personal experience. Both my wife and I played PC RPG's (yes, even before we met) and once we tried MMORPG's there is really no going back. We have tried: we both own N
Ha! (Score:1)
Lest we forget: Try the PC version of Ultima VII. Then try the SNES version of the same. Even if it were a state of the art port, the experience was never quite the same. =)
I don't think consoles will take over the PC RPGs. They're trying, but PCs still handle stuff more elegantly - especially the modding. Did the X-Box version of Morrowind ship with TES Construction Set? Guess not... and one of the reasons I have enjoyed Morrowind and Neverwinter Nights so much is the moddability.
And besides: Where's m