An Xbox Live-like Service For Open/Indie Gaming? 129
Byrne Reese writes "Amidst all the crazy ideas in online video entertainment in the past year, there is a small company called Arena Unlimited that is taking an interesting approach to gaming economies. As near as I can tell, they're trying to open up a multitude of online gameplay services (e.g., opponent matching, free market item trading) to the masses (i.e., open source and independent PC game developers). (I shudder to think what would happen if one could actually introduce a legitimate and real free market economy into The Sims.) It's no Xbox Live, and their list of supported games is pretty small, but if they can do all that they say they may one day support, then sign me up."
shakeout of online games (Score:1)
Re:shakeout of online games (Score:5, Interesting)
value for the money (Score:3, Interesting)
Secondly, what kind of guarantee will you have when you spend 250+ hours a year building a character, e.g., Ultima Online, that
1. you won't be forced to pay an extra $50 year to upgrade
2. that the online game will be supported for the near term and long term future? They don't close down the game and servers for 6+ months after you buy the game.
Re:value for the money (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:value for the money (Score:3, Insightful)
You can play it on a 56K connection and don't need the latest graphics card.
There are never any guarantees but I think in a way small gaming comanies are much less likely to screw you over or get closed down by the parent company. The only risk is that they might run out of money but that is the case with any ga
PC vs. Console (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:PC vs. Console (Score:4, Informative)
I'm sure that this has more to do with it being probably the single best racing sim on the console market (at least you can lock the brakes, you can't do that in Gran Turismo), but nonetheless, the excellent matching system it's got definitely helps the situation.
Re:PC vs. Console (Score:3, Informative)
Maybe that's a long time for console games, but not for PC games. Quake3, RtCW, MOHAA, Diablo2 are all over 3 years old, and still have a large player base. Counterstrike is even older and has a larger number of players online than all of Live.
Re:PC vs. Console (Score:2)
To take an off the cuff colloquial statistic, PC Counter-Strike seems to average around 50,000 players online at any given time [GameSpy Industries]. The Xbox Live active subscriber base was last quoted to be above 750,000 users as of last month with projections indicating 1,000,000 by summer [Robbie Bach, Microsoft]. Counter-Strike PC claims approximately a 2 million user download base [IGN] of which an indeterminat
Re:PC vs. Console (Score:1)
Re:PC vs. Console (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:PC vs. Console (Score:3, Insightful)
Perhaps its more that PC gamers have longer attention spans when it comes to online games than Console gamers, or maybe just the target audience of XBox Live/PS2 online users. However, Console gamers don't have short attention spans. I know firsthand that there's still strong and growing messageboards for Super Metroid (1994) and Final Fantasy Tactics (1998). Pac Man and Super
Re:PC vs. Console (Score:2)
Re:PC vs. Console (Score:5, Insightful)
As someone who plays both, I find it funny to be told that when I grab the PS2 controller suddenly my attention span takes a nose dive. Or whatever else.
But let's talk attention span. It's PC games which typically are over in 8 to 10 hours. There's an entire industry churning mindless 8 hour FPS clones for the PC.
Whereas most console games I've played packed 50 hours or more. Even KOTOR which was _huge_ for a PC game, was actually somewhat short for its genre as a console game.
E.g., on the PC you get racing games with maybe 3 to 5 cars to choose from. Most are with cars from only one manufacturer. Some are with only _one_ car total. On the consoles? GT2. 'Nuff said.
Want to talk online games? Good. Phantasy Star Online? Had a lot of people playing it for ages.
So some people are being obsessive about a single game. And in the case of some people I know, they're actually playing the same map again and again, because that's the map on which they can impress their clan.
I've watched someone, day after day and months after months, playing the exact same Counter-Strike map, running to the exact same spot, and jumping up and down in front of the same vent to see if someone's coming. _Hours_ in a row _each_ _day_ spent actually just jumping in place in front of the exact same vent hole. (Virtual aerobic, or what?;)
It's not an issue of "attention span", nor of "PC vs consoles". It's just sad. And they'd do it on consoles just as well, if they had a clan of retards to impress with their l33t score.
MMORPGs as a _game_ (i.e., talking about those who actually _play_ them, and not just use them as a fancy chat room with graphics) catter to a variation of the same obsessive compulsive group. The kind which puts up with 12 hours a day of boring, repetitive, mindless clicking on monsters, and with waiting in line for 5 hours at a monster respawn point... just to get to level 50 and build a castle. And imagines that anyone will actually envy him/her for that achievement.
Again, it's not an issue of "attention span", and I do believe they'd be just as sad on a console.
Hey... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Hey... (Score:5, Insightful)
Just as there was never a real implementation of Communism, there is no real "free market capitalism."
There are, on a simple level, two reasons for this. One, no one can really agree what "free market capitalism" or "communism" is. The second one is that there's no way in hell politicians would ever inact something that makes sense without perverting it with "political realities."
Being an economist is definitely a dismal science ;-)
Oh yes there is... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's called the "Black Martket".
Drugs, cigarettes, prostitution, software, satellite cards, anything that is regulated and/or taxed to opression or overpriced or has unserved demand due to a monopoly has a black market and as such also has a true free market.
All that participate, do so by choice. They take the risks for the rewards. They pay the costs for the product. All suppliers compete in a totally unregulated fashion and all buyers are free to choose based on price and product.
Black market has too many inpurities (Score:5, Insightful)
True free market economics, where every party knows all of the prices available to them and the actual quality level and statistics of the products offered, is impossible without regulating bodies ensuring that all parties adhere to such high standards of information accuracy.
Just because a market is flying under the radar of the "evil, oppressive, taxing government" doesn't mean it is a free market. Try getting 5 quotes for verifiably 90% pure cocane on a Friday night.
Re:Black market has too many inpurities (Score:1)
For something closer to the black market Marcus was talking about you'd have had to live behind the Iron Courtain in the bad old days. WAY closer to the ideal "market economy".
Re:Black market has too many inpurities (Score:2)
Thats the kind of irony I like.
Re:Black market has too many inpurities (Score:1)
Re:Hey... (Score:5, Interesting)
If you aren't familiar with it you might want to see if you can track down a copy of Stephen Leacock's (Professor of Economics- McGill University) "Too Much College" for his view of what the field of economics was becoming, circa 1939, as well as his views of a number of other fields and education in general.
There's a good chance your library will have this.
Of course there's another reason none of these political/economic theories has been tried in their purest form.
They simply don't meet the needs of people. Capitalism and democracy work great in the market place. They really don't in the private home where oligarchy is the only workable system. Communism works great in the monastary and group farm, but only when imbedded in a larger social framework that allows dissenters to leave freely and not distrupt the communal ethic. In the early days of America we experimented with privately held roads and bridges. It sucked. It sucked a lot. Socialism is the only really workable way to deal with such infrastructure.
Some "political realities" have reality.
KFG
Re:Hey... (Score:1)
Prove this. I've been researching on the topic and I have to say that I've found the exact opposite was true: there were few, if any failures in private infrastructure, the infrastructure was better cared for, and more diverse (ala, not just highways).
Do you have anything to back this up, or is this just a baseless ass
Re:Hey... (Score:2)
Uhh, ditto to you.
Re:Hey... (Score:1)
If he does have some examples or evidence, I'd love to read it to further my studies. If not, then I'll just consider it an unbased claim. I'm not trying to prove anything, and if he doesn't want to answer, that's fine too.
Re:Hey... (Score:4, Insightful)
=Brian
Re:Hey... (Score:4, Funny)
Inside of Volvos
Inside of Volvos
Inside of Volvos
Inside of. . .
Yuppies on LSD - Dave Hitt
KFG
what games? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:EA (Score:2)
Re:EA (Score:1)
Re:EA (Score:2)
1 - X-Box Live is the only way Microsoft wants games to be played online with the X-Box.
2 - Customers that play the games with X-Box Live have to pay Microsoft a yearly fee.
Thats all fine and dandy, it would be much better if, lets say, Microsoft gave companies a choice..? How about, you can use Xbox Live, or if you have your own matchmaking service that works better with your game your making, by all means go ahead and use it. May the X-Box crumble and die..
Re:EA (Score:2)
Regardless, EA's online services are a shadow of what Xbox Live offers. The only advantages it has exist for EA alone - the ability to stop your games from working online when they want you to buy the sequel (see Madden - this and Sony's cash ar ethe real reasons Live isn't yet supported by EA), and the inability for non-EA gamers to find friends playing EA games.
Re:EA (Score:2)
"We have had ongoing discussions with Microsoft about supporting their Xbox Live functionality. It really comes down to a difference in philosophy about the business model. They're creating a new revenue and profit stream. They want to use our intellectual property. They don't want to compensate us for the use of our intellectual property. We think that's a little unrealistic. It would be akin to someone starting a new cable cha
Re:EA (Score:2)
The only real reason here is control. EA doesn't want to give it up, though potentially if MS pays them enough they will loosen their 'morals'.
Re:EA (Score:1)
I've played three matches in the two and a half months that I've had the game, and it's not for a lack of other players, it has more to do with the fact that a connection to the other players is never established.
I, for one, would welcome something more stable/standardized, even if Satan was the one
It's a start (Score:5, Interesting)
Microsoft cracked one out of the park with Xbox Live (apparently they save their innovative minds for their side projects). Let's move all online gaming in that direction.
Re:It's a start (Score:1)
Make him just put it in his away message.
Re:It's a start (Score:2)
Re:It's a start (Score:5, Informative)
Um, All Seeing Eye anyone?
Re:It's a start (Score:2)
Steven V.
Re:It's a start (Score:5, Interesting)
Even though it's a pay for use network, and a lot of gaming companies dont like Microsoft getting in their online future business (EA for example), it's still is one of the best systems you can find on a console, and its game portable, which makes it really nice when you want to play more than one game with all your friends.
And seriously, the one year price at roughly the price of a game is a whole lot better than monthly. Especially considering the value that it does bring to the online gaming table.
Even the PC is going Live like. From the looks of things, it seems like Steam is trying to be a Live device for all things Valve, since it has buddy lists, automatic updating of content, and online voice chat intergrated. If they can work all the bugs out of it, It would be a whole of a lot better than most online gaming to date.
Re:It's a start (Score:4, Informative)
* Consistent interface
* Quick match in all games works the way it's supposed to: find a game and just play
* Voice chat, for all intents and purposes, is a success
Bad things about Live:
* Where are the dedicated servers?
* Even with everyone on broadband, there's still occasional lags
* 12 year olds who haven't hit puberty (although there are a lot of adults on the service)
Still, I think they've done a pretty good job, overall. Xbox is still my favorite system (for hacking and playing -- got about 20 games), and they can still improve, but it ain't bad.
Re:It's a start (Score:2)
On one hand, I agree.
On another hand, I play SOCOM II on PS2 more than anything on Xbox Live. Lots of dedicated servers for that game, and they're incredibly unreliable.
Meanwhile, every Xbox Live game I've played has been very reliable. Still some lag? Sure. But not even as bad as SOCOM.
I would like to see dedicated servers for select games, but for many games, the setup as is right now is perfect (I don't think Top Spin really needs dedicated servers).
Re:It's a start (Score:1)
truth in advertising statement--I'm the director of engineering for Xfire.
ZandramasX
Re:It's a start (Score:2)
To achieve Xbox Live style functionality, programs like this have to become pretty ubiquitous. I like being able to add random people from games that were fun to play with as "friends".
Xfire looks like a good start. I'll be sure to give it a try.
Re:It's a start (Score:1)
Nothing like this is going to work terribley well until someone creates a viable open standard IM system.
Anyway, a mongrel of GameSpy and Yet Another IM Client isn't terribly original or promising.
Re:It's a start (Score:2)
As far as voice chat... everyone I know uses speak freely. I do believe a registered version of gamespy arcade comes with Roger wilco. However, most of my friends use speak freely as oppossed to any in game communication. As for depenability, these are free services and a dedicated service simply
Re:It's a start (Score:2)
This is exactly why we started this project. We're not trying to compete with Microsoft (at least not directly). Microsoft doesn't seem to have a current incentive to open its development tools to non Microsoft platforms. That's not to mention that not every game developer can affo
Re:It's a start (Score:2, Interesting)
Sega had it right. (Score:1)
Re:It's a start (Score:2)
www.gamespy.com - been doing it since at least, what, 1998?
www.teamspeak.org - been putting out quality online voice software since at least 2000.
Both essentially free or with optional registration.
Re:It's a start ?? Kali.net and RogerWilco? (Score:2)
I'm rather confused... I've been playing online since '94 (Descent over Kali or IHHD). Kali has listed usernames since way back then - When you ran either DOS or OS/2.
Roger Wilco came out years ago.
I don't get it.
Why would this be /.ed? (Score:4, Insightful)
In all appearances this looks more like a Phantom [phantom.net] Then an actual "gaming news story".
Re:Why would this be /.ed? (Score:1)
Planning for Slashdot (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Planning for Slashdot (Score:4, Informative)
As far as I know, there's no Google cache of anything we've done so far (hence the generic, if not hopeful link), but the redirect trick is something we learned right here on SlashDot just in case something like this happened:
<?php
$referer = $_SERVER['HTTP_REFERER'];
if ($referer !== null
&& preg_match('%://[^/]*((cnn|msnbc\.msn|news\.com|p
d)\.com|slashdot\.org)/%
{
?>
<?php
}
else
{
header('Location: site/');
}
?>
Re:Planning for Slashdot (Score:2)
That, and the nice standardized ( XHTML 1.0 Transitional ) markup helps...greatly reducing the amount of data served. A good decision that will show easy returns in hardware cost. Finally, even
Re:Planning for Slashdot (Score:2)
body { background: #fff; }
most user agents will default to white, but some use colors selected in desktop themes.
Preemptive Slashdot, WTF? (Score:2)
A much more reasonable solution would be to serve a lower-bandwidth ve
Real free market economy into The Sims (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Real free market economy into The Sims (Score:3, Insightful)
It has to be said... (Score:5, Funny)
Short list is an understatement (Score:5, Funny)
So small, in fact, that you didn't need to pluralize the word "games" in that sentence.
Re:Short list is an understatement (Score:2)
The current release is really not (yet) meant for end users. It's really meant for developers to see how we're approaching the problem and to get feedback from the community. But, hell, "need more games" is valuable feedback, right?
We don't need no stinkin xboxen (Score:2, Informative)
Free XBox Live Clones... (Score:5, Informative)
There's just no way those solutions will be competing with commercial online gaming platforms, like XBox Live, any time soon though. Mostly, for technical reasons: most console users don't want to have to deal with setting up a LAN or even basic routing functionality (as you have to do when using a tunneling tool), no matter how simple, they just want stuff to work out of the box. Exposure is another problem: XBox Live is a household name. Most people, on the other hand, don't even know that independently run online gaming services exist.
It will be interesting to see how the PC gaming crowd, which is generally more inclined to tweak their systems and try new stuff, will react when free, preferably open-source online services become widely available. With high-bandwidth Internet access becoming affordable, or even standard, in many areas this might just turn out to be a very interesting thing(tm).
Re:Free XBox Live Clones... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Free XBox Live Clones... (Score:1, Informative)
Although its not a clone of the XBOX Live Service, Gamespy Arcade offers Gamespy Tunnel
How Many Players? (Score:2)
Beating Whores (Score:2)
Now, wouldn't THAT be a fun job?
Re:Beating Whores (Score:1)
Just how is this new and wonderful? (Score:5, Interesting)
How is an open games service any different from something like Gamespy, All Seeing Eye, or even just finding a server and logging onto it? yes, I know there are the issues with scoreboards and ranking and whatnot, but stuff like Raven Shield does that anyway.
So, to cut my rant short: what makes X-Box Live so great that it needs to be open-sourced?
Secondly, if X-Box Live is so groundbreaking, why the hell do I always hear about open source ripping off other people's models? I mean it's embarrassing! We bitch so much about Microsoft, but spend most of our time copying them: Media Center, Mono, Office, and now an online gaming community... way to go guys...
Re:Just how is this new and wonderful? (Score:3, Insightful)
The second half, however... Integrated office suites existed before MS Office (ClarisWorks, Symantic Greatworks, etc), integrated media players existed before Media Center, networked mail management programs existed before Mono (see also, nearly all of UNIX), online gaming communities with matching and stats existed before XBox Live (Gamespy, et al).
Open Source developers aren't always the most
Re:Just how is this new and wonderful? (Score:2)
Well, evil clippy, someone made it based pitr's work when he created clippy for vi. (pitr from userfriendly.org).
It was neat, useless, funny, but I have no idea where to find it now.
Re:Just how is this new and wonderful? (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Just how is this new and wonderful? (Score:2)
Server listings alone aren't the same thing as matchmaking, which is what a lot of games need (I know Blizzard tried it for Warcraft III, heard it went poorly). Sure, difference in abilities don't matter too much for the FPS games you mention where you play with 30 other people on one server - things tend to average out. But in any 1on1 (and 2on2, so on) style game, being able to play someone of your abilities is a godsend. Or
Re:Just how is this new - IHHD/Kali/Kahn.. (Score:2)
1994 here. Decent in DOS via IHHD or Kali.
How is an open games service any different from something like Gamespy, All Seeing Eye, or even just finding a server and logging onto it? yes, I know there are the issues with scoreboards and ranking and whatnot, but stuff like Raven Shield does that anyway.
Kali.net gives you a whole slew of games and listed servers to choose from.
So, to cut my rant short: what makes X-Box Live so great that it needs to
sign me up too, but... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:sign me up too, but... (Score:1)
If you can't afford that you are either lying, or one DAMN DAMN DAMN cheap bastard.
"Sorry fellas, can't buy a round today, my xbox live account is KILLING ME"
Re:sign me up too, but... (Score:1)
Re:sign me up too, but... (Score:1)
Advertising supported. (Score:1, Insightful)
IBM's got something like this... (Score:5, Informative)
Real world game finder.. (Score:5, Funny)
I'd pay if someone could tell me where the nearest topless women's volleyball game was, or even drop in floor hockey on a tuesday night..
This whole 'internet' fad is bound to fade soon, I mean look at CB radio's, and we'll be back at home with no friendsters, and duke nukem forever still six months away!
Steam for the rest of us - A good thing (Score:4, Informative)
A similar 3rd party system for non-Valve games would be cool and useful. Especially the extension to the real market for MMORPG's.
the sims? (Score:4, Funny)
good news.... (Score:1)
actually, i think its "virtual property" (Score:3, Informative)
To whom it may concern:
You are invited to check out Arena Unlimited's new, free online service
for Open Source and independent game developers.
Our technology aims to allow developers to convert their virtual game
items into real commodities that can be bought, sold, and traded. Also,
we intend to enable developers and publishers to create, sell, and
manage dynamic advertising space, objects, sponsorships, and other content
within their games.
On Friday the 13th, we made available a preview release of our project
showing off some of our basic features. We want to give developers a
chance to check out what we're doing and evaluate the approach we're
taking to ensure usability in the upcoming production release.
Please visit the Developer's Corner
(http://arenaunlimited.com/site/dev/) to see what we offer. Comments,
questions, and suggestions are welcome and wanted.
Sincerely,
Dan Chow
CTO, Arena Unlimited, Inc.
P.S. You are receiving this invitation because you are a developer for
Open Source or independent game content. We're sorry about the mass
mailing, however this is the first, last and only e-mail we'll send you on
the subject if you don't want to sign up for the mailing list. We
believe in opt-in, not opt-out.Your address "_my_sf_email!_@users.sourceforge.net" has been invited to join
the developers mailing list at mail.arenaunlimited.com by the developers mailing list owner. You may accept the invitation by simply
replying to this message, keeping the Subject: header intact.
You can also visit this web page:
http://lists.arenaunlimited.com/mailman/confirm/d
Or you should include the following line -- and only the following
line -- in a message to developers-request@mail.arenaunlimited.com:
confirm 5726ae9795213d5e2d10c8278e9d0c4ca0a62fa6
Note that simply sending a `reply' to this message should work from
most mail readers.
If you want to decline this invitation, please simply disregard this
message. If you have any questions, please send them to
developers-owner@mail.arenaunlimited.com.
as was reported on slashdot before, this virtual property thing is real big now, some kid sold his UO virtual property biz for like 10 million if i remember correctly. this sounds like a sort of scam to get us OO & indie game developers into some kinda contract on the off chance our game hits it big, and creates a demand for this crap. my personal recommendation, JUST SAY NO TO SUITS!! -Ted
Re:actually, i think its "virtual property" (Score:4, Informative)
Jeez, would it be alright for people just to have fun, without getting pimped to every minute? I guess not.
Re:actually, i think its "virtual property" (Score:5, Informative)
First, let me apologize if the e-mail was unwanted. Your e-mail address is listed on the Fmorg project page [sourceforge.net] and we thought you might be interested in what we're doing.
this sounds like a sort of scam to get us OO & indie game developers into some kinda contract on the off chance our game hits it big, and creates a demand for this crap
Second, we're not a contract-based service. We don't charge or require anything from developers. Period.
Personally, I'm an advocate of and contributor to the Open Source community. As long as I have any input, games released under any approved license [opensource.org] will never be required to pay licensing or developer fees to use our system.
We are constructing and offering a set of tools to be used at will by any developer who might benefit from the inclusion of such features. For example, if a developer wants to sell, say, cars [racer-xtreme.com] to augment a racing game [racer.nl] to help support development, etc., then we would like to help facilitate that in a convenient and secure manner. We don't have or want any say in setting the price. We're looking to support ourselves by collecting a small percentage of the sale (the majority of the revenue goes straight to the developer).
my personal recommendation, JUST SAY NO TO SUITS!! -Ted
We're really not suits, we promise! (If you don't believe us, then check out our pictures.)
But if you feel violated by our approach, I sincerely apologize. I hope you continue work on Fmorg with our without our help, as it looks very promising.
Re:actually, i think its "virtual property" (Score:2, Interesting)
the Simms (Score:1)
Is that when little AI controled computer people buy stuff from me off of an ebay like system?
Re:the Simms (Score:1)
Or even better,
Getting my Simms chars to sell YOU stuff!
The beauty of online gaming. (Score:2)
TOUCHDOWN!
And in the middle of your glory the screen goes black, and the only thing left to see is:
Waiting to Connect
15
14
13
12
Holy crap, you mean you'll let me PAY YOU for this? Sign me up!
Everyone that loves video games, bow your heads. Let us pray:
"Please never let anything be like Xbox Live again."
Re:The beauty of online gaming. (Score:3, Insightful)
What's more, Xbox Live actually solves that problem to some extent. Drop a game because you are losing, and it is attached to your more or less permanent online record. No anonyminity to hide behind...
Get a real virtual life ! (Score:1)
We'll see