Girls in the Gaming World 639
dkleinsc writes "The BBC is running an article about life as a female gaming squad. There's some discussion about the welcome or lack thereof women get in the gaming community, and arguments over whether it's a good idea to have separate women's matches."
Great... (Score:4, Funny)
Swell.. now that this the existence of female gamers is common knowledge, the most common messages in Counter-Strike will be "A/S/L?!" and "w4nna g0 c4mp1ng 0n 7h47 r00f709?!!!"
Re:Great... (Score:5, Interesting)
They're playing Sims, Dance Dance REvolution, and other social, simulation and interactivity-based games. That's where the real interest lies and the market is huge. Sims 2 will BLOW AWAY Far Cry and Pain Killer and maybe even DOOM 3 because 51% of the population that own a computer and play games are going to buy it.
Re:Great... (Score:4, Interesting)
I would have to agree with this, I know a lot of females that play games and it seems that they all prefer to play ones like Sims, DAOC, or Everquest. My wife for example is totally addicted to DAOC, and prefers to play this rather than play half-life/unreal/quake with me. Which is fine with me since every time we have played this I get my ass kicked.
Re:Great... (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh yes... but this article is about Counter-Strike competitions where females don't get the participate in the same brackets as male, and don't get to try and win the big cash prizes. Now please enlighten us as to how this is justifyable by saying girls prefer other games genres. I guess because the game is not targetted at them, they can't play it at the same level as men ?
It's a load of crock if you ask me. It's men afraid that their testosteron levels will be going down if they get beat by a girl. Get over yourselves. Even if only 1% of Counter-strike gamers are girls, it doesn't mean that they are the worst 1% of players. And it also doesn't mean that they can't play in a "no-girls allowed" tournement (you know the kind, where 8 year old boys don't want to catch cooties and stuff). And that they can't win the same prize money. This is not a sport where physical differences would tip the scale. Girls and boys handle mices and keyboards with the same skill.
I personnally don't see why women can't participate at the same level and even against men in this type of event.
Re:Great... (Score:5, Interesting)
The point is that the winnings of any competition are distributed by the mandates of the competitions holders, not those participating in it. We live in a capitalist society (well most of the world anyways) and that means that the man with the money makes all the rules. If the competitions holders want to discriminate then that is their prerogative. Its not like you are forced to participate in that competition if you feel the policies to be discriminatory. There are plenty of other competitions that aren't discriminatory.
Likewise, those admins on public servers that wish to be can be as discriminatory as they want. Discrimination is not illegal, only more expensive. A company that wants to maintain its right to be selective about its employees without regard to equal opportunity simply have to pay fines and be marked as such. The government isn't going to put them out of business because of this.
But then again I don't really see the point of playing to the point that you are so good to warrant going to any of these competitions. That's just too much time invested in a practice that can't pay the bills for the majority of those who participate. Its not like professional sports where all the athletes still make a living whether they lose or not.
The bottom line is, if its not yours then you have to live by the edicts of its owner when using it. Pretty simple concept really. Its surprising to see as many people as I do feeling entitled to equal access to someone else's holdings.
Re:Great... (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem I see is with the article rather than with the tournaments. This is the first time I've heard of a tournament that had seperate brackets for males and females. In most cases, men and women competed on the same ladders with mixed or unmixed teams, their choice. As far as I'm aware of, the push for female-only ladders came from female-only clans, not from male-only clans (and to my knowledge, few clans are male-only by choice of the members). Each clan I've participated in has welcomed any female member that was up to the normal membership requirements of the clan, which has resulted in a handful of female members over the years between the 3 clans. The only reason there weren't more female members is because there weren't more female players looking to join (one exception in my memory being a point at which membership closed while a female was being actively recruited, because the clan decided to stop playing the game rather than bringing in 6-10 new players).
Re:Great... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Great... (Score:4, Funny)
For a moment there, I thought you (for one) were going to welcome our new female gamer overlords. :)
Re:Great... (Score:4, Funny)
I still vividly remember the first time I saw people playing DDR. Because one of them was an 18 year old girl with Double D Cup breasts. Mmmmmmm.
LK
Re:Great... (Score:3, Informative)
Apropos cartoon... (Score:5, Funny)
Sad but true... (Score:5, Insightful)
Frankly, I find this unacceptable. I'm not homosexual but I do find homophobic language offensive, and the same goes for the other, less acceptable language that crop up on almost every public gaming service.
I find it both funny and sad that these kids (and most of the people who resort to such language are kids) think nothing of using language that they wouldn't dare use at the dinner table or to a someone they bumped into at the mall to sound "cool" and "macho" online.
And it's amazing how far they'll take it: I've had people threaten to track me down in real life and kill me and my family, rape our corpses and then rip our heads off and shit down our necks. If it wasn't so laughable at the time then I would have been well within my rights to report the matter to the relevant authorities. I'd love to see some 13 year-old sat down on the couch with his parents and a pair of law enforcement officers explaining that he regularly sent death threats to people just because they outclassed him in a game.
The fact is that as long as this sort of behaviour is accepted or even tolerated by the majority of online gaming communities then those communities will remain the domain of teenagers who have bigger mouths and egos than brains.
There's no doubt in my mind that, whilst most men would shrug their shoulders, dismiss the idiots as part of life and just carry on gaming, most women will not tolerate such stuff.
As my girlfriend put it when she saw some of the stuff that gets spewed out by some of these people, "What idiot would say that kind of stuff and why would you want to spend your free time listening to it?"
Re:Sad but true... (Score:5, Insightful)
Some perspective, and hope (Score:5, Interesting)
1) Player moderation (ie. voting people out of the game)
2) Voice chat
I was worried about #2 when it started out, but it actually does a lot to reduce the trash in online gaming. A lot of people won't say out loud the kind of words they'll type, at least not the extremes. There's still plenty of salty language out there, but there is a distinct difference between what people will say, and what they'll type.
Also, for the kiddies, the fact that they have to say the things out loud, inside their house, can make all the difference. I've kept a great post from a gaming message board about this: "I was watchin my cousin play [Return to Castle Wolfenstein: Tides of War] and then this lil kid comes on over the mic and says mother****er then the next u hear is a giant smack n then the kid starts crying roflmao....". Plus, anyone that tries to talk someone down in a squeaky kiddie voice usually gets laughed and humiliated out of the room.
As for women, I'll often let my girlfriend wear the headset for playing SOCOM II online, and let her do all the talking for me. She often gets attention, but she never gets harassed, and the majority of the undersexed kiddies are too shy to try and hit on her verbally. That, and everyone else audibly laughs at them and makes fun of them when they try.
Some malcontents are undeterred by voice chat, but it does help weed out a lot of it. For the rest, players being able to vote losers out of the game is a great feature. My main complaint is that too few games explore such a feature fully.
Sepatate female matches? (Score:5, Interesting)
My girlfriend loves Mario Kart: Double Dash and it makes me happy it's one of the hobbies we can share.
If playing against girls makes you uncomfortable, don't play games at all!
Re:Sepatate female matches? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Sepatate female matches? (Score:5, Interesting)
Ummm, earth to boring guy (Score:5, Insightful)
Since there is no way to mod this "Duh", I had to respond.
OF COURSE! Have you ever played an online game? There are always those who are (or pretend to be) loud-mouthed, homophobic, racist, misogynist, immature dick-heads. They usually are the ones who cheat and play like tools. They either really are that ignorant, or they do it just to cause a stir and piss people off. Being female would only garner a different type of insult from these morons. They are what make online gaming so annoying. But it is so much fun and gratifying to own them. :-)
Now I know that not everyone is like this, but the ones who aren't don't care who they are playing against. Most of the time you don't know anyway, you just know people by their screen names and your past experiences with them. For all I know, some of them are women.
Re:Sepatate female matches? (Score:3, Interesting)
Sorry, but it's true. I'm not saying they'll nessecarily finish places 51-57, but my guess is that they would all be in the bottom half, and most of them in the bottom quarter.
I agree there's no reason why females, in principle, couldnt't play FP
Okay, so let's put that theory to the test... (Score:5, Insightful)
.
Seems fairly straigtforward.
Re:Okay, so let's put that theory to the test... (Score:5, Insightful)
Some though, would feel that allowing that would further underline the differences. Today we can all play make-believe and say there's one class only for girls, one only for boys, so it's equal in a way.
If we let girls compete whereever they choose (and I see no reason not to) then we also need to be intellectually honest enough that there's one "free for all" class, and one "females only", and we can no longer pretend it's "equal".
The risk is that this would further undermine the status of the females-only class. It'd be sorta like there's special classes in many sports for "only those under 16".
You'd have a situation where it'd basically be a male as "World-Champion" (or whatever) in any sport, and the females would be relegated to "World-Champion - female only class"
It's a tricky bussiness. It's tricky because we have this ideal, and the political correctness, that we're supposed to be equal. And the fact of the matter is that today we are not. In some sports, like those where muscle-mass play a role, we'll never be. In others, where muscles are irrelevant, we *migth* get there some day, but today we're not. (Personally I'd be overjoyed to see a female F1-winner or chess grandmaster)
Your theory is unfounded (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Sepatate female matches? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Sepatate female matches? (Score:5, Informative)
On average, men have a better time processing, and virtualizing 3d information on a computer screen. But it turns out that, if you give a women a wide screen, or multi screen environment.. they can process 3d information just as good (and some times better), than men
Just thought I would put that 2c in =)
Re:Sepatate female matches? (Score:3, Insightful)
Girl gamers who are good are especially to be feared ( as they are often elswhere), because they empiriaclly demonstrate the invalidity of the argument that they don't belong because they somehow unsuitable for the task.
Personally, if I were a girl gamer, I'd take a certain amount of delight in kicking dickwad ass for the above
Why? (Score:5, Insightful)
Why? This isn't real life, where men have more muscle than women do (I'm not being sexist, just take an intro biology course), and are therefore superior to women in terms of pure strength, speed, etc. Online, everybody's equal, the characters can be tuned to roughly equivalent stats, the only thing that matters is reflexes to move the mouse and hit the keyboard.
Re:Why? (Score:3, Funny)
I watched a TV show last night with some female body builder - I would bet money that she could kick the ass of pretty much any slashdotter, male, female or otherwise
Re:Why? (Score:4, Insightful)
If you want prior art, look at the history of the male / female chess leagues. The creation of sparate leagues actually increased the sexisim debates. Soon the women's league was know for it's weaker players who were often derived the opportunity to play against their stronger male counterparts. It got so bad that (arguably) the best women players made it a point to play in the conventionally men's tournaments. Some were even as bold as to say it was impossible to improve unless they played against stronger opponents.
Video games, like chess, fail to use a sex's sexual characteristics to give one sex a distinct advantage over the other. Separate leagues aren't necessary, and if there's an all female team, that should be a choice of comaraderie and not adminstration.
Wow, how many web nanny programs will filter this post?
Re:Why? (Score:5, Funny)
As a male, I for one, welcome our new female overlords!
Re:Why? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Why? (Score:5, Insightful)
All else being equal, in a long-distance race between a man and a woman, the woman will win.
Why do the best Marathon times come from men then? Why aren't women winning the Tour de France? The reference I found is that they are eligible for it, but none have yet been good enough to be picked for a team. Top women can compete with top men in many areas, but in general the testosterone wins in sports.
Re:Why? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Why? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Why? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why? (Score:4, Insightful)
We'd play these big 5 or 6-person games, and I'd often win or come in second. Why? Because they spent the first half of the game beating each other up, while I just would stock up land and get my creatures out. Then, when they noticed I was still there and at 20 health, they were all down quite a bit.
It's not that women are crafty. We don't have to be when it comes to male egos.
Re:Why? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Why? (Score:5, Interesting)
If anything, I resent any insinuations of what my capabilities should be. I shouldn't be expected to do all the heavy lifting (as my female compatriots were prone to do), nor should I be seen as incapable of delicacy. But that is a common experience. That changes with demonstration. We are paid the same, do your job to the best of your abilities.
I am of an ethnic minority, and I resent any implication that I can't compete. I also resent you tarnishing any of the achievements women have made. Diane Nyad, Curie, Lynn St. James, Michelle Wie, etc.; they did better than compete, they set new standards. No "demographic" can take that away from them.
When my black friends call me an honorary nigga for all the struggles overcome, I'm guessing I might know something about disadvantage. It's meaningless; you will either respect me or not. That changes nothing that I do.
My mother has accomplished much with limited prospects, especially in a time when it was unfashionable for women to do so. When I make mention that she might be an unsung revolutionary, she laughs. The first person to underestimate her is making a fatal mistake. She resents any implication that she needs accomodation. As she is fond of saying: "You were born here, you speak the language, you know the culture. What is your problem?"
"The "advantage" of being seen as nothing more than a dickcozy..." Thank you for reducing my sexuality to exploitation. Makes me feel warm and fuzzy to know my romantic pursuits are simply degrading to the other party.
Maybe it would be better to know less about disadvantage and more about valor.
In you are going to compete, compete. Arbitrary rules only foster the idea of inability. Girls still seem to accomplish beyond what you might say.
Sithu Thein's comment is the most interesting (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Sithu Thein's comment is the most interesting (Score:5, Informative)
Collaer, M. L., & Nelson, J. D. (2002). Large visuospatial sex difference in line judgment: Possible role of attentional factors. Brain and Cognition, 49, 1-12.
Delgado, A.R., & Prieto, G. (1996). Sex differences in visuospatial ability: do performance factors play such an important role? Memory & Cognition, 24: 504 - 510.
Wunderlich, Spitzer, Tomczak, & Reipe (2000). Brain activation during human naviagtion: gender-different neural networks as a function of performance. Nat Neurosci. 2000 Apr;3(4):404-8.
Re:Sithu Thein's comment is the most interesting (Score:3, Interesting)
1. Women which started gaming from when they were young, e.g. 7 years, are never tested
2. Women have never had such an opportunity as on-line gaming, since there are more easier to find likewise friends, and nobody SEE your gender when practicing
I must also say that when it comes to reflexes, many young women win ANY
Re:Sithu Thein's comment is the most interesting (Score:3, Funny)
Sigh.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Sigh.... (Score:4, Funny)
Does anyone else see this as an attempt to make an issue out of a non-issue?
That's the nature of the politically correct world we live in. Soon you'll see:
The Gay Quake 3 Arena Championship
African American Counter-Strike
Unreal Tournament (Kosher Rules)
etc etc etc I'm only half joking here.
Re:Sigh.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Sigh.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Sigh.... (Score:5, Insightful)
What I have found is that the girls, that I know, fall into two categories: the girls who play games and those who don't. The girls who don't play games wouldn't play any computer game, simply because the idea of playing a computer game is not their idea of fun. The other girls I know, who play games have a taste as varied as any guy out there. My sister manages to beat me at a number of games when I play against her. I also know a fair number of guys who don't like playing games like Counter-Strike, because there is not enough strategy involved.
I wonder how much the media is to blame for these stereotypes and how much the minority of guys who are scared at being challenged by a girl at anything are to blame for scaring women off?
Re:Sigh.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Sigh.... (Score:3, Interesting)
Men have feelings too! (Score:5, Insightful)
To think that only women are subject to abuse is either naievity or ego.
Ridiculous! (Score:5, Insightful)
Separate competitions? That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.
Boys' and girls' real-world sports are separated early on because of physical attributes. Physically, girls have different abilities from boys. And there are other physical attributes that cause both genders to become... distracted.
But online? Who knows -- who cares -- about your real-world attributes? For crying out loud, that's what makes gaming great for us geeks -- we don't have to be muscular, or fit, or even easily mobile! I'd probably lose 10-to-1 against Stephen Hawking at BZFlag [bzflag.org].
So in a world where physical ability and differences are irrelevant, what justification could there possibly be for a gender-segregated gaming tournament?
Perhaps the organizers have a cynical ulterior motive? If I were a top-level girl geek, I'd turn down an invitation to such a demeaning event -- so all they'd get would be the second-rate girl teams. And then they can say "but look, they're clearly not in the same league."
Re:Ridiculous! (Score:5, Interesting)
Its probably like having amateur and pro events. If there are a lesser number of women participating, probably makes sense to let them win some matches and encourage them to play more, maybe? Or maybe just targeted advertising?
Re:Ridiculous! (Score:4, Insightful)
Why don't they get a life? Who would ever watch people go in circles in cars when we can go out and get in our own car and do it ourselves?
No one would take something as silly as that seriously.
Re:Ridiculous! (Score:5, Insightful)
By that same logic: "Oh good, someone can run swing a fat stick better than someone else, try applying it to something real." Obviously, the concept of "professional" baseball gaming will never be taken seriously, either.
Of course, swinging a stick with great precision is handy when you're a hunter-gatherer. But last time I wanted a pork chop, I went to the store, not out to the woods [archerysociety.org]. And guess what -- that pork chop was labelled with a bar code, and I purchased it using my debit card and pin.
By clicking buttons.
What was that about applying my skills to something real?
Re:Ridiculous! (Score:4, Funny)
(cough) David Wells (cough)
Re:Ridiculous! (Score:3, Funny)
Well, competitive grocery shopping might be a bit nuts [bargainsla.com].
But competitive grammar? You're on!
You never know... (Score:5, Funny)
I heard that Slashdot moderators also go kindly on female posters.
Sarah_the_geek_grrl
Re:You never know... (Score:5, Insightful)
To quote the great Chris Rock, "Can I help you with that? Can I help you with some dick?"
And as to getting schooled, I'm sure most gamers wouldn't mind Stevie Case (AKA KillCreek [gamespy.com]) walking all over them in a game of Quake III. Hell, if she can take John Romero to the cleaners
Great! (Score:5, Funny)
gender segregation? (Score:4, Informative)
Oh come on! I think it is silly to have separate leagues for men and women in real-world sports, where it could be argued (not by me) that the physical differences between the genders would give one or the other an unfair advantage. In a virtual environment, even that would be voided. Why separate them?
Re:gender segregation? (Score:4, Interesting)
I mostly fence foil, and at my university, that puts me fencing against a lot of women in practices (most of the guys favor epee). About the only substantial advantage I have over them is the fact that I'm 6', and thus have a slightly better reach. But, honestly, I'd have the same advantage against a 5'7" guy. The only other physical factor to the sport is enough endurance to stay quick after a few matches, but that's not something that belongs to either gender, really.
Yet fencing, in competition, is separated by gender. We go to a competition where there might be 100 guys fencing Sabre, and one of our women wins because she has a field of 8 to fence against.
It sounds a bit too much like some triumphing, girl-power movement, but I honestly think it falls into the same category that this gaming competition does: on some deep-seated level, far too many guys fear losing to a woman.
Don't change anything! (Score:4, Funny)
Suck it up! (Score:5, Interesting)
No need for separate games (Score:5, Interesting)
Fast-forward to a few weeks later, and I would lose to her in duels 90 percent of the time. She would hit top scores on servers routinely, and I started switching to her team any time we played together so I wouldn't always be on the losing team.
The funny thing was, no one believed it was really a woman playing when she'd kick their ass.
-i
Seperate but Equal (Score:4, Insightful)
This last weekend (Score:3, Interesting)
Separate matches (Score:4, Insightful)
Some sports separate out men and women because physical differences make it hard for them to compete. Obvious examples that come to mind are contact sports like football and basketball, or even non-contacts like tennis (mentioned in one of the article comments) where physicality still plays a strong role. It's the same reasoning that makes sports like boxing have weight classes (a gender-neutral issue): to produce interesting matchups that let the competitors focus on how well they compare with others with a similar physical starting point.
Having said that, it doesn't strike me that there are significant differences in physiology that would prevent co-ed competitions from being fair, any more than you would expect one gender or another to have an advantage in competitions of bridge or snooker. The fact that they still compete in separate brackets more likely has more to do with advertising dollars (sponsors probably figure that the female market for Counterstrike is pretty small) or inertia (hey, let's do our tournaments like every other sports competition!) than any argument based on merit.
3 kinds of girl gamers (Score:5, Funny)
Guys don't like playing them because they're smarter, better, faster, and sometimes you fall in love...
2. "WHEEE CUTE!"
Usually they watch anime and/or create bad erotic fanart about doe-eyed male anime characters. They don't play any game that doesn't involve a cute catgirl or bunnygirl. See Final Fantasy XI or Ragnarok Online.
3. Your Mom Playing Solitaire
You know she's playing it right now. Remember that 1.5ghz Athlon system you built for her so she can send digital photos to grandma and make her own mix CD's? Yea, it's a $900 solitaire deck shuffler.
Oh - we've come so far ! (Score:5, Funny)
Why do we have to relegate everything to the sexes ?
I'm a liberal !
Let women go head to head with men ! (hmmm, there's something about that statement that
So long as I don't have a female boss, I'm happy !
I'm mean really guys, lets get realistic here
Once again.. (Score:3, Funny)
sexism in reporting, n/m gaming (Score:3, Insightful)
The One Place Gender Doesn't Matter... (Score:5, Insightful)
The one place where competition can be leveled down to fundemental non-physical attributes, a place where women can actually compete on equal footing as guys, they want to bring back gender divisions? I just don't get it.
Oh please! Get a grip already! (Score:4, Interesting)
I mean, usually the need to separate two groups engaging in a common activity arises due to some kind of friction between the two for whatever reason.
Here, I don't see what the reason could be.
Insecurity among the guys? maybe, but why spoil the fun of the game because of a personality trait?
Embarassment? for what? getting beat by a female player? Catch up with the times already!
Sorry for putting it like this, but it has to be said - an online game is meant to be fun. So if the number of female players is increasing, I say that's a really good thing and probably the only place I'd say where it would make sense to make it girls only would be a game that's like an MMORPG version of Barbie's Dreamhouse.
My Girlfriend (Score:3, Interesting)
My girlfriend however, really likes Warcraft 3, so much so, that when she came back from South America having studied abroad for a month, it was the second thing she wanted to do.
She really enjoys the social aspect of the game, and although she's never the best player there, she's also never the worst (she only plays at LAN parties since her laptop has an 8 meg video card).
Voluntary Segregation (Score:5, Insightful)
Since many major online games (UT, Quake, etc) offer granularity of servers, I imagine there's probably alredy "girls only" servers and other private interest group servers just the same (password protected, et al).
It seems natural. We already have television networks (several) specifically for genders. Chat rooms for certain interests.
Now, with all that said, I can't say I mind competing with/losing to a girl. I don't understand the need for specific major competitions specifically for females. In fact, I'd imagine that 'being a male' as a requirement for a competition would probably result in legal action.
-m.
Why create disparity where there is none (Score:3, Insightful)
The reason a lot of physical sports are segregated is not even so much a difference of strength issue, but a more psychological one, in that girls are less likely to join a traditionally all-boys (now unisex) sport such as lets say football because of the fact that their peers are all competitive males, which can make one feel insecure, or the 'weakest link'. So, they create all-girls football teams so girls will be encouraged to join the team since they are playing with their female peers and so are on 'equal' ground. No need to worry about being mocked by a buncha assholic boys, just from bitchy women (its always easier to take critism from the same sex).
However, by segregating gamers into sexes in a faceless game, they are only actually promoting the idea of female inferiority in competive events. Treating girl gamers as a special commodity cheapens them, and makes me lose respect for them as gamers. If anything else is considered except the skill of the player, you've already lost the point of the game, and need to try again; whether its a he or a she is irrelevant. The sooner female gamers are not treated as special people who need to be segregated, the sooner everyone can get on playing w/o regard for sex like we're supposed to, and really get down to what matters: having fun with fellow gamers.
Journalistic licence (Score:3, Insightful)
I never understood it until... (Score:3, Interesting)
I once asked her why she choses gender neutral names when the game offers only male character models, or choses male models 90% of the time when offered a choice.
It's all about attitude. Most young male gamers are sexist rude pigs towards women. Most of the remaining are more interested in harassing her than playing once they find out she's a 'chick'. They don't care about her aptitude (she's one of the highest characters in our current MMOG ; in FPSs she's always in the top 5% of the game at the moment, etc) they want to know about 'her boobz' and such.
Sha said it best once before "If I could strip their anonymonity away when acting like that I'd always play a female. Most guys act like assholes because they're anonymous on the internet so they feel they can get away with it."
And she's right. I'm ashamed at my fellow man (pun intended) when I see how they react. The first time in history gender is transparent we still act like male dogs in heat around a member of the opposite sex.
Female players who go out of their way to 'stand out' in my opinion are only one step above the male sexist pigs. I've seen the chatbars when she joined an all-girl clan once. I think both of us were equally disgusted at the attention whoring that went on.
Personally I'm looking forward to the point where this all blows over. It seems once every few months we hear about these 'rare' female gamers out there. There's more than you think folks, they're just playing under male names so they get treated like everybody else.
Yeah, but separate leagues? (Score:3, Informative)
seperation of men and women... (Score:4, Insightful)
I remember attending the "all female tournament" for quake 1, and other than the top two or three players, I wouldn't say any of the other girls had any business being in any tournaments. In theory, there is nothing seperating men from women in skill in these games. In practice, it doesn't work that way. The girls, at least so far, are never the top players. Having seperate events for the women gives them a huge advantage in terms of exposure and, well, being in news articles or potentially winning money.
The reasons for the disparity in skill seem pretty simple. While there is nothing specific keeping any individual girl from being at the top of the heap (that I can think of), the fact that there are umpteen (we'll say 99) times more men playing than women means statistically likely one per 100 of the top players will be a girl, and one per 100 of the top teams will be all girls. Here, we have 7 out of 57 teams. Even if the ratio is not 99:1, I doubt it is anywhere near 7:1. The women are just pulling talent from a smaller pool.
GGW (Score:3, Funny)
I've been most fortunate in this aspect (Score:5, Funny)
Whose f*cking bright idea was it... (Score:3, Insightful)
Even appart from the fact that in video games, chess, bridge or any other sport/game which doesn't rely on physical prowess the difference between male and female doesn't come into play; it's just a dumb thing to do.
I for one would love to compete (or rather: be in the same room...I don't think I'm at their level of play) with Louise and the other girls.
Whats wrong with Girls Gaming? (Score:5, Insightful)
women get treated differently online (Score:5, Interesting)
Its one world but not everyone experiences it the same way.
Remember (Score:4, Interesting)
Maybe females are better? (Score:3, Insightful)
Just google the usenet groups for "female fine motor skills" and you will see lots of discussion on the topic, including relevant places such as rec.guns and rec.games...
I think coed games are just fine. I like to play fps against real people and I don't care who they are.
As far as fairness, I'd tend to think skill, connection speed and location relative to the server are more important that physical differences between M/F.
Not the usual... (Score:3, Interesting)
I suppose I'm quite lucky on that front. My missus plays games more than I do (More spare time) and recently I've noticed that she's managing to kick my ass on certain games. I dont know if it's a gender thing but she seems much more able (Patience might come into it) to learn and pull off the combos in fighting games. I don't even attempt to play Soul Calibur 2 or DOA against her anymore!
I wonder how many other people have experienced such extreme hostility towards playing games from their significant others? I know that my brother gets grief every time he puts a game on and as such very rarely gets a chance to play games anymore.
My Wife... (Score:5, Interesting)
It was interesting to see the varied reactions of the guys. She didn't advertise that she was female, but if it came up the first reaction was usually disbelief and dismissal -- they assumed she was a guy lying about his gender. Then after adequate proof (using voice comm in game, for example) they'd be surprised, but accept the truth. Then they wanted to see pictures.
There were basically two reactions: anger and attraction. It was usually the younger guys who got angry -- for some reason they were pissed off that a girl could beat them. They'd get all bitchy at her and call her names, claim she was cheating and disappear. Maybe they'd be like that with anyone. Who knows?
Most of the older guys (heh -- meaning past puberty) ended up getting attracted to her. In fact a whole bunch of guys would flock around her online wherever she went... be it gaming, or IRC.
She went to TribesCon IV in Reno a couple years ago, and she was one of maybe three girls who came to play... out of 200+ total gamers. There were lots of girlfriends there, but they stayed off to the side.
Some of the guys became quite taken with her (it doesn't hurt that she's a hottie [mac.com]). Which got a little weird. Eventually she retired and got back into real life.
Cheers.
One of the reasons. (Score:5, Insightful)
We simply do not get any respect.
A common misconception about girls that play games is that they play "boring online games", such as Yahoo games, solitare, chess or whatever. Yes, many girls play those kinds of games. However, so do many guys. The thing is, most of those guys would never post here, and most of those girls are the only ones the average slashdotter would see (Yeah, I'm using a stereotype here, so sue me).
Another common misconception is that games are marketed towards guys because there aren't as many girls that do play "the cool" games. This is a matter of market forces. While I agree that there are fewer girls that play games than guys, the number of girls that play games isn't really that low. In fact, most of my female friends play games. Females make up 51% of the world population, after all, so there's a HUGE market out there.
A third misconception is that girls aren't interested in games. Totally wrong, see above. Girls ARE interested in games. Obviously.
These are misconceptions that are repeated constantly. We girls are simply seen as people who aren't techy. If one of us IS, then we're seen as not as competent as a guy. If we prove to be competent, then we suddenly turn into a threat. All of those are reasons to talk down to girls, not just in gaming, but in other areas as well.
I can tell you one thing that girls are though. We're not interested in being called names, just because we try to show an interest in the very same field as guys.
Maybe, just maybe, more girls would confess to being gamers if they weren't insulted whenever they tried it.
(Okay, maybe this post wasn't so thought through, but I'm currently busy starving myself to keep my figure.... or maybe I'm just delirious from coding all day and forgetting to eat. Bah, whatever.)
Re:One of the reasons. (Score:5, Insightful)
No, you probably get treated the same way guys do when they play online games, especially FPS games.
Females make up 51% of the world population, after all, so there's a HUGE market out there.
Yes, but this doesn't mean they make up 51% of the video game playing population. While gaming may be popular with younger women nowadays, there is still a huge gap in the 25+ aged women who just don't play games at all (outside of slots, solitare, pogo, etc) . To them, there is still a social stigma against it.
I can tell you one thing that girls are though. We're not interested in being called names, just because we try to show an interest in the very same field as guys.
Anyone in an online game gets called names. Seriously, I'm sure that anyone who plays a FPS game here has been 'flamed or lamed' at one point or another. Don't expect special treatment because you are a girl, of a certain race, etc.
To see my point, go into a fps with a neutral nickname and announce you are of a certain ethnic group and see how long it takes for people to bring that up. People aren't picking on you because you are a girl, it's because you are there and they do it to everyone else also.
We girls are simply seen as people who aren't techy
Look at the gender breakdown of computer science or mathmatics majors that finish with a degree. It's not that you are seen as not being _techy_ it's that most of you aren't. That doesn't mean you can't be, it's just that most girls aren't interested in that kind of stuff.
In fact, most of my female friends play games.
Yes, but that doesn't mean most females play games. Most of my friends work in IT, but that doesn't mean 75% of the world works in IT.
Maybe, just maybe, more girls would confess to being gamers if they weren't insulted whenever they tried it.
It seems to me girls are encouraged to play (given free things, invited to join clans, etc) more than men are. Like I mentioned before, if you get called names online it's not beacuse you are a girl, it's just because you are there.
Game = Gender/Race freezone.. (Score:4, Insightful)
I see an advantage on sexual segregation (Score:4, Insightful)
But I digress, I've had many girls as opponents in several kinds of games. In fact, I would recommend playing the awesome Pac-Man Vs. against women, it's ungodly funny. Women-friendly games are not always stupid things like Barbie. There are great games you can play with your SO, if not together, then taking turns is fun too. Examples? Animal Crossing, Mario Party, Mario Kart (online, yes!), Mario Tennis, Bomberman, Tetris Attack, Parappa and Umjammer Lammy, and Wario Ware, even some FPS I have played against women and had a great time.
I think an all-boy team is just as bad as an all-girl team. But, I also see an advantage with sexual-segregation. There are people very insecure about themselves, those are the ones that will never accept a defeat from the other gender. Let these idiots play with themselves in their closed circles, and let the mixed gender teams get rid of them and enjoy the insane fun.
So please, continue to make your gender-specific teams and keep yourselves out of this horrible, unfair mixed gender world where I play =P
Interesting story... (Score:5, Interesting)
Recently, I completed reading Blondie24 -- Playing at the Edge of AI, an interesting book by David Fogel on his attempt to use evolutionary computation to evolve a high quality checker playing program. He tested his program by playing online against other checker players on The Zone, an online gaming network.
Early on, he discovered that his rather pedestrian nickname attracted few opponents, so he changed his online nick to be Obi_WanTheJedi, which seemed to attract a great deal more competition. As his program was revised and became stronger, he noticed that opponents would often become rude and angry as they fell behind, and would stall hoping he would drop out, or just disconnect, often after swearing like a sailor. Such drop outs made evaluating the games more difficult, so they tried a different strategy. This seemed worst among intermediate players: the better players were often much better sports.
They developed a cover story for Blondie24, a 24 year old female mathematics major. She was also single, attractive, and looking for a boyfriend.
They reported that they were on the receiving end of crude remarks and suggestions in about 1 in 3 games. Interestingly enough, the better players were reported to be uniformly polite, complimenting "her" on her excellent play at so young an age.
It seems rather obvious to me that women and men should be competing in the same competitions in this arena. The mere fact that fewer women play should not be a deterrent, nor do I think the prospect of easier money for women competitors merely by virtue of their being fewer female competitors is a good precedent to set. But perhaps all players should review their own behavior, and try to maintain a degree of fun and sportsmanship.
Life *as* a female gaming squad? (Score:5, Funny)
I suppose I would have 10 breasts and 10 arms to fondle myself wi....
OH, WAIT!
I had forgotten that Slashdot editors are incapable of using correct grammar! They must have meant, "Life for a female gaming squad."
Re:Why segregate girls? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Why segregate girls? (Score:4, Insightful)
(ok, here I go throwing my karma into the fire)
Men excel at physical pursuits. It is not only because our hormones allow greater muscle mass -- there are other forces at work here and science has not yet pinned them down. But a quick look at fighter pilots today, for example, shows that even in a field where physical strength is not essential, men are far more suited to the task than women.
Sure, there are lady fighter pilots, women who can exert the concentration and coordination necessary for Uncle Sam to trust them with $100M toys. Just as there are women who can beat men at Quake III. All I'm saying is that statistics confirm that there are not many of them.
Is that so bad?
Fighter pilots (Score:4, Insightful)
Actually, women (on average; we all know women AND men who are exceptions) tend to excel at just the kind of skills fighter pilots (and kick-ass gamers) need. Good reflexes, eye/hand coordination, etc. But fighter plane cockpits are crammed with equipment and most of it is designed with a MALE pilot in mind, i.e. 5'9" or taller. The best reflexes in the world aren't going to help you if you can't reach the controls.
Re:Yeah right (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Women's matches (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Women's matches (Score:4, Funny)
My 13 year old daughter is probably the most vicious player I have ever met! Not only does she frag you, she goes the "extra yard" by blowing up your corpse! And when we are playing death matches in Quake she will mutter things like "My name is Perfect Little Angel, how may I kill you today?"
Maybe this is what the guys are afraid of when they are playing online is that they could get their asses handed to them by "a girl".