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PlayStation (Games) Role Playing (Games) Entertainment Games

La Pucelle Tactics Publisher Explains Alleged U.S. Censorship 68

Posted by simoniker from the not-too-much-controversy dept.
Thanks to 1UP for its interview with La Pucelle: Tactics publisher Bill Swartz regarding alleged censorship to the PlayStation 2 SRPG from the developers of Disgaea, after an eToychest interview with the game's Japanese producer revealed: "We did take out a very few things we felt would cause problems in North America." Following sustained noises of discontent on the GameFAQs messageboards, it's explained: "Alloute wore cross earrings a few times and we took them out. We also removed a few other cross accessories and changed a handful of devices that looked like crosses (unless you looked carefully) to devices that looked a little less like crosses." Swartz laments: "There are well organized forces that work hard to punish software makers and sellers for what they consider religious transgressions", and clarifies the changes were "...not things that either carried meaning to the game's original audience or were in any way part of the substance of the game."
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La Pucelle Tactics Publisher Explains Alleged U.S. Censorship More

La Pucelle Tactics Publisher Explains Alleged U.S. Censorship

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  • explain please (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Why would crosses be something to censor for America?
    • from the fine summary:

      Swartz laments: "There are well organized forces that work hard to punish software makers and sellers for what they consider religious transgressions"

      • Re:explain please (Score:1)

        by Anonymous Coward
        Yes, and why would it be a religious transgression?

      • Re:explain please (Score:3, Interesting)

        by Anonymous Coward
        Basically anywhere south of Tennessee and east of the Mississippi River in the U.S., if you start Taking The Lord's Name (or symbols) In Vain, you're going to run into trouble with the fundamentalist Christian crowd. (Note the distinction between fundamentalist Christian and just plain ol' ordinary Christian.) IIRC, a Southern Baptist minister once called for a boycott on Mighty Mouse because he believed the super-powered cartoon character was doing cocaine. Not exactly the same thing, I know, but it sho

    • Re:explain please (Score:5, Informative)

      by 0x0d0a ( 568518 ) on Friday April 30, 2004 @06:11AM (#9016987) Journal
      Because people were wearing them decoratively in the game, and hard-core Christians can be incredibly mule-headed about forcing their views on other people when it comes to casual use of religious symbols. What if the bad guy likes to wear clothing with a cross on it, wears a full-black outfit (not uncommon for a Japanese game) and looks like a priest? C'mon, this is the nation that had Christian fundamentalists banning Harry Potter from school libraries because it contained "witchcraft".

      I wonder how feasible it would be to make this switchable. We currently have "Kid mode" switches in many games. I wonder how feasible it would be to have a "Christian mode" to disable the display of content that Christians might be offended by.

      <rant>Man, I wish that people could practice their religions in peace, and not force their religious views on other people (like stuff like this and banning of abortions).</rant>

      • Re:explain please (Score:5, Insightful)

        by NNKK ( 218503 ) on Friday April 30, 2004 @06:40AM (#9017056) Homepage
        As a Christian, I can tell you they can practice in peace, and many of us do; as do many Jews, Muslims, etc. In fact, important parts of my personal religious beliefs are that religion has no place in government, and that trying to force religion on others is inexcusable.

        I have no explanation for you about those that do try to force their beliefs on others. All I can say is please don't paint us all with the same brush.

        For what it's worth, aside from it not being my place to tell a company what it can or can't put in a game, I find the controversy generated by things like crosses in games to be fundamentally ridiculous. People are ascribing far too much importance to objects that lack inherent meaning. If I could say one thing to the people that get so worked up over it, I would ask them why they seem so much more concerned about earthly objects than their relationship with God.

        • It's like flag burning... (Score:1, Insightful)

          by Anonymous Coward
          or all kinds of things.

          They can't get past the 6th grade tit-for-tat of it. Sure burning the flag can be a powerful insult. But it can also be a gesture of honor as when a flag is soiled (or even just touches the ground) and is burned. (Which can also have tragic consequences). Someone wants them to feel bad, so they do. Because for whatever reason it's not possible to make the other people offending them feel bad, they want to enjoin the general behavior that made them feel bad. What that completely
        • Comment removed based on user account deletion

          • Re:explain please (Score:3, Insightful)

            by Anonymous Coward
            I don't think that saying that the symbol of the man who suffered a lot to wash us from our sins lacks an inherent meaning... It's THE most important symbol of the Christian religion, and is expected to be respected as much as a country flag, maybe even more.

            And why is the flag of a country to be respected?

            I'm being serious. The USA is the only country I can think of where the flag is considered sacred. I hear things about schoolchildren being forced to swear allegiance to this flag and, as a European,
            • (massive generalizations from minimal personal experience follows)

              From what I understand of European politics--which is not a terrible lot--Americans draw the border of acceptable politcal positions much more narrowly. Americans recognise burning the flag as a political statement, too, but it's part of a set of politics that are themselves sacred. Aside from cluless rebellious kids, people who don't want to be part of that are not welcome in our community.

              That's at least for Americans who burn the flag.
            • It doesn't hurt God, why should it bother
              And certainly not as much as the original crusifiction did. Seriously, you are absolutely right here. Stars, stripes and crosses are just geometric primitives. To believe that they have any value or meaning besides what we personally ascribe to them is foolish.

              Just like words, geometric (and other) symbols can be useful in a limited context, such as in diplomacy, in military service, etc. Hence special rules for setting the flags on the table when you have negotiat
            • There's a big difference between "respected" and "sacred". School kids aren't forced to swear allegiance, either. They are allowed to opt out (at least theoretically). I would say that plenty of other countries have a greater sense of nationalism than the US does.

              Flags are respected as symbols of nations out of convention. Although it is arbitrary there is nothing wrong with it. Personally I feel that respect is due to any nation's flag, not just my own.

          • Re:explain please (Score:1, Interesting)

            by Anonymous Coward
            And that's where sunday school lead you astray. It's not that he died on the cross, it's that in doing so we are given permission to set down regret, free ourselves from self-doubt, and to dare to be better people. The fact that he died on the cross is an almost irrelevent quirk of geography. The theory goes that the story would have been the same, only the minor details would have been different no matter where Jesus was, or WHEN. The crucifix is no more the embodyment of Christianity no more than the
        • I have no explanation for you about those that do try to force their beliefs on others. All I can say is please don't paint us all with the same brush.

          Maybe if you'd speak out against "the others" from time to time, instead of implicitly supporting them by silence, we might be less inclined to paint you with the same brush.

          • Re:explain please (Score:3, Interesting)

            by NNKK ( 218503 )
            As the anonymous poster noted, I just did. And I do so any time it comes up, though you'd have no way of knowing that.

            Admittedly it doesn't seem like you often see those that share my beliefs speaking out. Part of the problem is that they often don't see what is happening. Another part is external pressure. Yet another is that a lot are better people than I am and spend much of their time helping others. The biggest problem though, is that we don't really have a voice.

            Fundamentalists are loud -- very loud
            • You hear me now only because you looked in the right place at the right time. I'm afraid I don't know how to fix that.

              It's hard to speak to those who are unwilling to listen and it is even harder to change the minds of those who have not opened them. People with closed minds usually are not rational, and their belief structure is generally formed either early in life vis-a-vis dogmatic inheritance or by popular opinion because they are too weak to think for themselves. If you want more people to hear what

              • Either that or your friends will begin to avoid you. I know if one of my friends started preaching to me (whether it be religion, politics, or open source software, or some combination of the three), I'd start being "busy" whenever I saw them and generally just try and get the point across that I disagree with them. Yes, I'm assuming I would disagree with them, but I think that's a safe assumption given that anyone who feels strongly enough about a religion or political party to push force their beliefs on
                • There is a big difference between forcing beliefs on someone and engaging in an intellectual conversation between a willing party. If you are making your friends uncomfortable by discussing something, then their minds are not really open to the topic to begin with. And preaching is another matter entirely. I have never met a priest or preacher that was willing to face the possibility that he was wrong about his beliefs - blind faith is the archnemesis of reason and the bane of intellectual discourse.
            • As the anonymous poster noted, I just did.

              When I said "you" , I meant the plural as in "all y'all".
              As Barry Goldwater once remarked, "A good Christian would punch Jerry Falwell in the mouth".

        • Ask your pastor or local preacher if he feels the same way as you do. If he doesn't, than think twice about paying your tithe (if you pay a tithe). Funding these fundamentalist preachers need to stop.

          When a nutty Christian preacher starts running his mouth about issues protected by the constitution, he needs to get a nudge to clam it up.

          You don't want a few "bad apples" to create a controversial face to Christianity, nor do you want to support those individuals when their talking about usurping the ide

          • I don't formally belong to any church, nor do I attend regularly, but the one I grew up in and retain some ties to (Seventh-Day Adventist) has a lot to do with my seemingly liberal beliefs. Any pastor in a major congregation that preached censorship and legislation of religion and morality would likely find himself looking for a new job.

            Unfortunately, with a membership of something like 13 million world-wide (and I do mean world-wide, a ton of those people are *outside* the United States), the SDA church i
          • When a nutty Christian preacher starts running his mouth about issues protected by the constitution, he needs to get a nudge to clam it up.
            No irony here, ladies and gentlemen, move along.

      • It's hard to say what the problem really is. (Score:4, Interesting)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday April 30, 2004 @06:44AM (#9017069)
        Given the games visibility it's hard to imagine a church group on a letter writing campaign this early in the process. There's the soccer mom factor where in people with far too much time on their hands and not enough sense to use it well are asked their opinions on products which will be used by other demographics. And of course the headless suit factor which is practically the definition of following and never catching the wave.

        I'd bet the latter. More likely they ran into some Walmart-esque troubles. (Hiring illegals because they're cheap and keep their traps shut is a Christian thing to do. Cosmo is communist, but products made exclusively by prison labor in China are all-American.)

        It might be something for Sega or Nintendo's american brances to do, help other games cross the pacific. They could have either another subsidiary kind of like their own off brand Disney vs Buena Vista, or just do it on the downlow like how boeing finances used Airbus planes.

      • Re:explain please (Score:5, Funny)

        by Mechanik ( 104328 ) on Friday April 30, 2004 @07:02AM (#9017106) Homepage
        I wonder how feasible it would be to have a "Christian mode"

        I think we're safe. Most FPS games already have a God mode...

        /me ducks...

        Mechanik
      • Comment removed based on user account deletion
      • Did they think that if they changed the appearance of crosses that this Fantasy Strategy RPG from Japan would be popular with the religious right?
      • Because people were wearing them [crosses and cross-like designs] decoratively in the game

        And this differs from the hardcore Bible-quoting, cross-bearing T-shirts with catchy "slogans" like "Pray Hard" and the ilk.... how, exactly?

        A lot of secular companies use cross designs in their stuff-- it's prominent in skater culture, if Tony Hawk Pro Skater's "create-a-skater" mode is to be believed-- so why aren't we seeing uproar there? Come to think of it, there's a move in THPS called the "Christ Air"-- not
        • You know what I think would be an excellent RPG? Playing the role of a team of Vatican agents, investigating a series of alleged miracles; maybe it could be traced back to a fictional coverup or something. I haven't really fleshed out the idea too well just yet. But it'd be an interesting concept, I think.

          I kinda do too, but...

          "Stigmata: The Movie: The Game" :-)
    • americans are notorious for being the most politically correct, easiest to offend people on the good planet Earth. For every cross there needs to be a star of david. For every white person there has to be a latino, black, and asian. Equality is more important than the artists's take on the game in this country. Take Two already had to pay the Haitan government for Anti-Haitan stereotypes in GTA3 and it's making the other developers nervous (btw, this is my first post here!! happy to swing by the nerd secti

  • Might Explain... (Score:4, Funny)

    by osullish ( 586626 ) <osullish@gmai l . c om> on Friday April 30, 2004 @05:56AM (#9016940)
    The delay with Duke Nukem, They're tidying up the level with the Stripper nuns in the mosque....

  • Xenosaga (Score:4, Interesting)

    by jetfuel ( 755102 ) on Friday April 30, 2004 @07:13AM (#9017127) Homepage
    There was something a little more drastic done in Xenosaga.
    **SPOILERS**
    There's a scene in which the main antagonist nano-liquifies his arm and jams it into the abdomen of a young-girl-type character. In the original Japanese version it's pretty disturbing and pretty obviously suggestive. The US version replaced this scene was changed to him simply "absorbing" data from her brain through the air. It's been said that some of the creators actually prefer the gentler version.
    Two other scenes were edited similarly. There is a full description with screenshots at Zenosaga.com [zenosaga.com].
    • Xenosaga (and gears) is also steeped in judeo christian mythology/legend/scripture. The thing is it gets by all the crazies who would complain about it because they aren't educated enough in their own religion to even catch the references.

      This is a generalization, I know, but it's also generally true!

      • Re:Xenosaga (Score:3, Interesting)

        by Genom ( 3868 )
        IIRC there was a similar controversy over Xenogears shortly after release in Japan, regarding the possibility of a US release. I remember reading articles saying "It'll never fly in the US..." and "The christian groups won't stand for it..."

        You know what? Square released it over here anyway (thanks Square!), and there wasn't a lick of uproar in the mainstream media that I can remember. Then again, Xenogears was pretty much a niche game, as opposed to FF games that get tons of publicity.
  • ... hehe I guess that's ironic.

  • Paranoia (Score:3, Interesting)

    by BCoates ( 512464 ) on Friday April 30, 2004 @07:47AM (#9017223)
    It strikes me that self-imposed preemptive censorship (the MPAA's rating system, ESRB, the Hays Commission, the Comics Code Authority, Professor Felten, Cable TV standards & practices...) in America is reliably more draconian than any successful government censorship regime.

    Perhaps the mainstream media outlets need to take a hint from the porn industry, tell the govenrment to screw off, and accept the occaisional raid+fine (if it even goes that far) as an advertising expense? "You heard about it on 20/20, now play it! the disgusting new action game BANNED in MICHIGAN!"
  • It is when software makers have to take these things into account that they get scared of innovation in the games as well, and we end up with a stagnating genre.

    Also, I'm willing to bet my right arm that it's the censored version that'll reach Europe, too. Besides Europeans being much, much less fanatical about such - honestly - pointless things.

  • Evangelion (Score:3, Interesting)

    by bludstone ( 103539 ) on Friday April 30, 2004 @08:42AM (#9017455)
    While its not a videogame, I sometimes wonder why I dont see "neon genesis evangelion" attacked for its heavy use of christian religious symbols. (not that they mean anything.)

    Maybe Its just under their radar.
    • It really is just under their radar in America (which is where this kind of thing matters to people). When a couple of episodes were shown on Cartoon Network, the religious iconography was completely removed, AFAIK. I would be curious to know how people have responded to it being broadcast in countries like Australia, and whether it was censored for religious reasons as well.

      (I believe Evangelion was shown uncut on public television in San Francisco or LA, but those aren't the kinds of places that complain

  • Crossed Out (Score:3, Interesting)

    by robbway ( 200983 ) on Friday April 30, 2004 @08:50AM (#9017491) Journal
    As much as I hate censorship, this is a minor change to the game. What's really odd is that they removed the crosses from the church scene! It appears the use of Christian symbology is taken out of context for most Japanese and therefore they blanket-remove them instead of understanding where they're gratuitous. It's also a shame they're removing things that look like crosses, because like Freudian Psychology (mostly bunk), you see certain common shapes everywhere because they're practical. Stop at the next intersection and ponder this.

  • Oh no (Score:1, Troll)

    by Hard_Code ( 49548 )
    The Matrix used religious iconography!
    BURN IT BURN IT

    We must not challenge people's assumptions about symbols! Think of the children!
  • This type of incorrect usage of the word censorship bothers me. The GOVERNMENT censors people. Individuals and corporations, by definition, cannot bring censorship onto something. If a company changes its product in response to critisicm by a potential market, that's called refining the product. If you want to state that a comapny has the right to manufacture its product the way it sees fit, you are 100% correct (excepting government regualtions and rules). But, if the changes would increase their mark
    • The GOVERNMENT censors people. Individuals and corporations, by definition, cannot bring censorship onto something.

      True, but it is the voice of the people which controls the government (at least thats the way its supposed to work) and the government in turn censors things as the public wants it.

      Yell, scream, and bitch about something loud enough with enough people and you can get anything censored. Ban smoking in public areas. Raise/Lower the legal drinking/smoking age. Raise/Lower the speed limit on the

    • Individuals and corporations, by definition, cannot bring censorship onto something.

      That would be true except that, in the USA, the government is a wholly-owned subsidiary of the corporations.

    • Too glib a distinction, at a certain point. I agree in general that this is self-censorship based on a vocal political bloc in US society punishing its enemies in the marketplace and PR spheres.

      But individuals and corporations can effectively censor to the extent that they use what power they have as individuals and organizations to restrict the discourse of other around them. If I as an individual threaten to shoot you if you say something, I've censored you. If I as a corporation threated to begin a mass
      • Your example is considerably more serious than removal of crosses from a game (pre-emptively). The former is of course protected by the First Amendment, as is the latter, but no one told the latter to do anything. If they had left them in, and not mentioned it, do you think anyone who was offended would notice? I certainly feel the corporate censorship (SLAPP suits and the like) much more grievous than someone not seeing a cross in a video game. That's Japan editorializing what bothers Americans.

        There
  • I have noticed several times in Anime (especially older Anime from the 80's) that it appears the makers have confused the Star of David with the Pentagram, and had characters drawing it on the floor with candles to summon demons, or wearing pendants with it that have paranormal powers. Did anybody ever comment on this, did it raise any kind of controversy, or what?

  • Well. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by SuiteSisterMary ( 123932 ) <(slebrun) (at) (gmail.com)> on Friday April 30, 2004 @02:10PM (#9020891) Journal

    There's censorship, and there's localization. Don't confuse the two.

    For example, where an American would say 'can you throw this in, to sweeten the deal,' the equivalent Japanese phrase would be 'can you throw this in, to add a little sexy blush to the deal.'

    The first phrase would be a perfectly good translation of the second phrase, but not a transliteration. So which is the more appropriate? Depends on what you're going for.

    Well, Christian symbology means more to the average North American than it does to the average Japanese, even the Christian ones. Actually, they tend to be pretty pragmatic; you see your Christian priest for this, your Shinto priest for that, and your local Budhist monk for the other.

  • i almost expected (Score:3, Interesting)

    by WormholeFiend ( 674934 ) on Friday April 30, 2004 @02:27PM (#9021086)
    i almost expected that the main problems would be with the name of the title...

    La Pucelle means "the [female] virgin".

    I didnt RTFA, but I guess this is a game about Joan of Arc, aka La Pucelle d'Orleans?
  • I can attest that Japanese seriously don't give much shit about Christian symbols. It's just that Christian girls are another stereotype you can use in games - you have tomboy girls, childhood friends, smart chicks with glasses, older (20+) women, cute 15 y.o. girls, etc. :) I remember at least two hentai games I personally played that featured Christian girls (with very noticeable Christian symbols). One of them was even a nun that had sex with the main character in the church. :) And since I played the Am

  • Nintendo Censorship (Score:3, Informative)

    by RotJ ( 771744 ) on Friday April 30, 2004 @07:07PM (#9023895) Journal
    Nintendo's been known to remove crosses from a game no matter what the context. I'm surprised they let games use the letter "t". For example, in Earthbound they removed a red cross [starmen.net] from a hospital. Actually, Mother 2/Earthbound went through a lot of changes from Japan to North America. [fobby.net] Here [nintendoland.com] are some other instances of Nintendo's game changes and censorship. And This page [216.239.39.104] (Google cache) shows Nintendo of America's old video game content guidelines, along with examples of games that were changed to meet each of those guidelines.

    I didn't know Sony Playstation had these problems, considering they released Xenogears, which depicted the crucifixion of furry critters [toastyfrog.com].

    • Another example of Nintendo censorship is the game Duck Tales.

      In a pre-release version of the game, the coffins in the Transylvania level had crosses on them. But in the final released version, that was changed so they had "R.I.P." on them instead.
  • For the Anime with possibly the most Judeo-Christian symbology, check out Neon Genesis Evangelion; some of the Christian and Kabala elements are important to the story, but many seem to have no real significance. Evangelion is not for children, but even shows like Sailor Moon had a scene excised where four characters were suspended on crystal crosses.

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