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Media Entertainment Games

Gaming Naysayers Have Little Context for Criticism 115

Posted by Zonk from the you-have-to-play-to-nay dept.
Buzzcut.com has a nice piece on the lack of context video game critics have in making their arguments. It should be noted he is not referring to today's report card, but a list of Top Ten most violent games put out by the Interfaith Center on Corporate Responsibility. From the article: "I followed up with a simple question, "Who on this panel has played which of the games?" Burke answered first, "I haven't played any of them." She backed up her willful ignorance of the games by suggesting that she didn't need to play Soldier of Fortune to know that she was opposed to its glorification of killing. "I think it's an irrelevant question," she concluded."
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Gaming Naysayers Have Little Context for Criticism More

Gaming Naysayers Have Little Context for Criticism

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  • Top Ten most violent books of the Bible (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ixtapolapoquetl ( 622233 ) on Wednesday November 24, 2004 @04:32PM (#10912202)

    Maybe someone should condemn reading the Bible, and put out a list of their own Top Ten most violent books of the Bible.

    I'd then like to respond to the question "Why do you condemn these books of the Bible?" with "I haven't read any of them."

    I'd continue, "I don't have to read the chapters about God slaughtering a bunch of people to know that I'm opposed to the Bible's glorification of killing. I think that's an irrelevant question."

    • Re:Top Ten most violent books of the Bible (Score:4, Interesting)

      by DAldredge ( 2353 ) <SlashdotEmail@GMail.Com> on Wednesday November 24, 2004 @05:21PM (#10912705) Journal
      What is fun is arguing about the Song on Soloman with people who KNOW FOR A FACT it has nothing to do with sex.

      I do not get the hang up some religious people have with sex, I really do not.

      • don't you get it? Anything that makes us flesh and blood beings with desires, joy and drive is animalistic and must be expunged. The only true joy in life is the joy of the one true god filling your heart, and the rest is the tool of satan.

        That's personally why I think the most psychologically damaging thing you can do to a person is to raise them catholic or any one of the other rigid "moralistic" faiths out there. Nothing like being taught from day one that every completely natural urge you have is ev

        • That's personally why I think the most psychologically damaging thing you can do to a person is to raise them catholic or any one of the other rigid "moralistic" faiths out there. Nothing like being taught from day one that every completely natural urge you have is evil and an indicator of your own inner sin.

          I'm not sure about the Catholics, but the Protestants are plenty "moralistic", yet don't consider sex to be a sin.

          They do have issues with premarital sex, but the last time I was in church and he

    • They never condemned the video games. This is a terrible article with loads of spin. Let's actually look at the press release, which starts off with "Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas" and "Halo 2" Highlighted As Off Limits for Young Children; Unwary Adult Shoppers Not Aided by Weak, Poorly Promoted Rating System and Confusing Ads." [iccr.org]

      Yes, I'd say that Postal 2 should not be given to young children. So I agree with them. The rest of the press release has such terrible and heavy handed censorship endorsemen

    • Maybe editors should read slashdot and the postings instead of posting double articles and waiting for the emails to flow in.

  • One wonders (Score:4, Insightful)

    by wowbagger ( 69688 ) on Wednesday November 24, 2004 @04:39PM (#10912280) Homepage Journal
    One wonders how many respondants to this story will have read the article before they click Submit....

    (and yes, I DID read the article before posting this.)

    This, unfortunately, is an all-too-common theme - a bunch of People With Too Damn Much Free Time Who Have Decided They Are The Guardians Of The Public Morals seeking to "protect" us from ourselves.

    In addition to the question of "How many of you have played any of these games" I would add another - "How many of you have spent any time at all with your children today?"

    Funny how these folks have plenty of time to have these meetings - they must REALLY spend a lot of time with their kids.

    Just remember - whenever you have the chance to attend something like this - ask them "And how many games have your played with your children in the past month?"

    It's much more statisfying that saying STFU.

    • Funny how these folks have plenty of time to have these meetings - they must REALLY spend a lot of time with their kids.

      The principal of my kids school is one of those people who's always "concerned for the welfare of the children." She has no children of her own. Instead, she "considers the whole school to be her children." She'd be into these sort of meetings in a heartbeat if they were held near here.

      The kids know when they're being patronised though. When she turns the morning assembly speech into a

  • Is the blurp saying... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by lobsterGun ( 415085 ) on Wednesday November 24, 2004 @04:41PM (#10912288)
    Is the blurb saying that you can't criticize something unless you have tried it first?

    Does that mean that I have to become a Heroin addict before I can say, "Heroin use is bad". Do I have to kill someone before I can come out against murder?

    This doesn't sound like a good way to confront these zealots. How about a more direct approach - ridicule.

    Laugh in their face.

    When they walk away from a conversation with you, they should know that you think:

    1 - that not only is their cause based on junk science (or no science),
    2 - but the leaders of their cause are the worst kind of charlatans motivated only by personial enrichment,
    3 - and that they are fools for being so easily taken in.

    • Learn the words to this song:

      http://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/themusicman/yagot tr ouble.htm

      Sing it loudly as they walk away in disgust.
    • well, see thats the thing. There's direct scientific proof that heroin and murder. I've played doom since I was 10, and at the ripe age of 21, I lack any sign of violent tendencies. The kids that are warped by this crap are screwed up to begin with, or are simply the products of ineffective parenting.

    • Does that mean that I have to become a Heroin addict before I can say, "Heroin use is bad". Do I have to kill someone before I can come out against murder?

      Murder's not really up for debate; there isn't a sizable group of people arguing for legalization of murder. So it's a silly comparison.

      Durgs, however, are a better comparision. Illegal drug use is rampant, there are people calling to make them legal. In such an environment a simple "Heroin use is bad" from someone unable to provide context is usel

    • Well,, I've heard a lot of things about marijuana, though I've never used it myself. All the people I know who have smoked pot consider it pleasant, and not that big a deal, and generally never moved on the more dangerous drugs, and are quite successful. All the people who tell me that pot is bad, and will ruin my life, say they have never used it. Who am I going to trust? Which information seems more valid?

      I have met some people who used herion. They speak very poorly of their time with the drug. I

    • I would like to second this argument. While I completely disagree with the idea that "Games make you kill", you don't need to experience something to realize it's a bad thing.

      I am sick of this being thrown in my face by people. When I try to even enter a discussion about women's rights (yeah, I know that's stupid) I get shot down because "I am not a woman". Or maybe I want to talk about racism, well my opinion doesn't count because I am white.

      What have we come to? I would have thought we were above th

  • A little note: (Score:5, Interesting)

    by activesynapsis ( 706402 ) on Wednesday November 24, 2004 @04:42PM (#10912303)
    The article refers to the Interfaith list as a ranking, 'Doom 3, the #1 offender', when it's really in alphabetical order.

    I was wondering how Doom 3 could be considered more violent than GTA: SA in the eyes of religious and censorship groups until I went to the Interfaith site myself.

    Personally, I thank Interfaith for compiling this year's Christmas shopping list for me.

    • I was wondering how Doom 3 could be considered more violent than GTA: SA in the eyes of religious and censorship groups until I went to the Interfaith site myself.

      Despite the list's alphabetical ranking, a lot of fundies really do think DOOM 3 is worse than a game like GTA:SA. DOOM 3 features lots of "demonic" imagery and other satanic things that make fundamentalist Christians nervous. GTA:SA is relatively run-of-the-mill street violence, but DOOM 3 is toying with people's immortal souls. As it were

    • "Personally, I thank Interfaith for compiling this year's Christmas shopping list for me."

      Sorry to disappoint you, then. One of the 10 'worst' games is Hitman: Blood Money. Not only have they not played it, however, but they've not seen anyone else play it, either - the game isn't finished yet and has a 2005 release date.

      Unfortunately, persuading the developers to turn it into a church attendance sim at the last moment, just for comedy value, could be difficult.

  • for these people it is an irrelevant question (Score:4, Interesting)

    by merdark ( 550117 ) on Wednesday November 24, 2004 @04:46PM (#10912347)
    I know these people are hated here on slashdot (and I certainly don't love them), but come on now, it IS an irrelevant question.

    I think we all know just from screenshots and descriptions what the games generally involve. These people, in their glorious wisdom, decided that anything involving shooting guns is too violent. I really don't think knowing that game A has a riviting storyline, or that game B involves fighting evil oppressors, will at all change their opinion.

    It's like people who think cars are from the devil. Will it matter to them that car A is fuel efficient, or car B is fun to drive, or car C is practical? No, they just hate cars, and they don't need to drive one to know it's a car.
    • but its not like that. games tell a story, or at the very least are entertainment. if you protest a movie you havent seen, or attempt to ban a book you haven't read, that's just willful ignorance. The only thing more dangerous than an uninformed opinion is a cause based on said opinion.

      Yes the games are clearly about killing -- but context is important. You cannot make a qualitative statement that they "glorify killing" without having experienced the context of the killing. Otherwise, we should opposed Sav
      • Yes the games are clearly about killing -- but context is important.

        Although I do not support their cause entirely, they do have a point though. Yes, context it important. Some war games could be good if you consider being on the "good" side. However, look at GTA3... context : You're a criminal dude that does criminal deeds for money. Here, the context is bad from any point of view.

        Not all of the violent games have a bad context, but it doesn't mean none of them have.

        • oh very much agreed, and i dont think that certain games should be played indiscriminantly by children - hence the ratings system; flawed as it might be, its there for a reason.

          this group though not only does not but patently refuses to make the distinction between a game like GTA and one that isn't like it at all. To oppose ALL violent games, especially having ZERO experience with ANY of them, is just ignorant censorship. and it's wrong.
        • "Not all of the violent games have a bad context, but it doesn't mean none of them have."

          a) Well, exactly. Which is why you need to look at them properly to understand why GTA is more unsuitable for kids than Halo 2.

          b) Actually playing the games would mean they wouldn't suggest that the new Prince Of Persia is one of the most suitable games of the year for kids, when the showers of gore you can achieve with your two-sword technique are far more impressive than anything I've seen in most of the games on th
          • The game merely reacts in an intelligent way to what you ask your character to do.

            No it doesn't.

            The intelligent reaction to someone who attacks prostitutes is that no other prostitutes would ever work for him again, and that both pimps and police would come to kill him, and that they wouldn't stop trying to kill him just because he's repainted a car.

            In GTA you can habitually kill every prostitute, without getting a bad reputation.
        • I'm only about halfway through the main storyline mission of San Andreas, but this one is far less 'criminal dude doing criminal deeds for money', much more 'one man fighting out against the evils infesting his former neighborhood, and doing greater things in the process.' But that's just my take on it, and YMMV
      • Just because they're myopic doesn't mean they get a free pass on the bigger issues.

        They are not getting a free pass. I am not agreeing with them. But it is still an irrelevant question to ask them, because yes, they would also ban saving private ryan if they could. That is their platform. They care not the message games or movies portray.

        Besides, comparing games to saving private ryan is pretty far fetched, even for me. Games are for having *fun*. Saving private ryan was not intended to leave you with an
        • If you had a game like saving private ryan, it would be tedious to play, easy to die, you wouldn't be able to aim worth a shit (read major handicaps), would get out of breath real fast, lose your coop buddies right at the start (and they could not rejoin for the entire duration of the game)...

          Wow, Saving Private Ryan is beginning to sound a lot like Counter-Strike ;).
    • Two players, each controlling a computerized representation of a tank, shoot projectiles at each other till one of the kills the other player?

      Sound like a very violent game?

      Well, its called combat and you can play it on the Atari 2600...
      • As I said, screenshots are more than enough to judge differences such as having a big ass pixel be a 'tank' and having a near photorealistic tank. They don't need to play the games to know what they are about. All they need to do is read a review.

        Come on, we all hate them, but let's not be irrational about this.

  • The list itself (Score:4, Interesting)

    by generic-man ( 33649 ) on Wednesday November 24, 2004 @04:50PM (#10912390) Homepage Journal
    Here's the press release [iccr.org] in question with the list at the bottom. Not only does the ICCR not play any of the games, they can't even spell them correctly! Look at GameSpot's treatment of this press release [gamespot.com] for some simple corrections.

    I can't wait to play some of the Top 9 games that they recommend as "non-violent" at the very bottom. Either "Antigrav" (which as of this morning was spelled "Antigrave") or "EyeToy: Antigrav" (which was simply called "Eye Toy" earlier today) should be good. They're listed separately, by the way.
    • Not to mention Prince of Persia is on that list. Last I checked you get to kill stuff in Prince of Persia as well.
      • Yes, but you don't use guns, and there's not much blood, so that killing is fine.
        • Yes, hacking someone to death with a big knife is much more acceptable then shooting them.

          Oh and the prince is from Persia, he must be a muslim, and we wouldn't want to offend the muslims (well anymore then we already do).
          • Not to mention that Persia refers to the geographical area now known as Iran, which mostly consists of non-Arabs who speak not Arabic, but Farsi. Plus, the hero guy came from India.

            Whatever keeps fundamentalists from touching it, I guess...
    • Well, we all remember the judge that said that games weren't protected speech, based on his viewing of "The Resident of Evil Creek,"

      Its like they're actively trying to show their distaste for civilised and informed discourse.
    • The original Prince of Persia games were some of the goriest for their times.

      Not to mention that in The Sands of Time you kill your own father
  • You can tell that their little list is complete crap seeing which games were ranked more violent than Postal 2. The game where you can beat a stereotypical arab to bloody death with a shovel and then piss on his corpse while lighting it on fire. Yeah, I'm sure Half-Life 2 is more violently offensive.

    The only thing Postal 2 was missing was corpse raping... and many fans were upset that it didn't have that feature.

    If you need an article to tell you that the ICCR's list is trash, you're one of them!!!
    • their list is also trash because it doesn't consider at all how the violence fits to the story.

      basically they make no difference between a knight rescuing a damsel in distress and postal 2's admittedly pointless violence just for violences sake fun.

      though, probably iccr gets funding from somewhere - and they have to appear to be doing something to justify their existence(some people like to put money into such just causes and some people like to take that money..)....
    • Uh... the list is in alphabetic order.

      Unless you want to argue that H comes after P in the alphabet, your point isn't very valid.

      --
      Evan

      • These people have other issues then. Somebody should tell them that numbering things implies some sort of logical order.
        • It was the pro-video game guy who presented them in a vertical list. The list officially appears in the joint press release and is clearly identified as being in alphabetic order (which also makes it clear that it is more than just the ICCR that endorses this... in fact, the article linked to by Slashdot is downright misleading):

          The five groups -- the Interfaith Center on Corporate Responsibility (ICCR), the National Council of Women's Organizations, Mothers Against Violence in America, Center for Advan

  • Madden 2005 (Score:3, Insightful)

    by WhatAmIDoingHere ( 742870 ) * <sexwithanimals@gmail.com> on Wednesday November 24, 2004 @05:09PM (#10912580) Homepage
    Odd how that's a non-violent choice.. Seeing as how football involves people more or less throwing each other around.. trying to knock each other down.. and lots of mean words *sad face*.

    I am a football fan and play Madden, but come on: Football = Violent
    • Forget football, what about rugby or hockey? Rugby is basicly football without the protective gear and in hockey... well chances are we've all seen or heard stories of players getting into fights or losing teeth from flying pucks. Baseball is dangerous too, some baseball players can throw up to a hundred miles per hour! I pity those who played professional baseball before helmets became required gear and were hit by a fastball.

      Just about every sport can be considered violent (ever get hit by a tennis ball?)

  • Minor mistake in TFA (Score:4, Funny)

    by empaler ( 130732 ) on Wednesday November 24, 2004 @05:23PM (#10912720) Journal
    It was supposed to be the Center for Relative Advancement of Public Policy, not CAPP.
  • These are the same type of people who think that D&D is satanic because some of the characters in the game can cast magic spells. The fact that you roll a dice to see what happens doesn't matter to them and when asked about that little issue they just ignore it.

  • what's being overlooked (Score:4, Insightful)

    by fireduck ( 197000 ) on Wednesday November 24, 2004 @05:26PM (#10912755)
    is that most, if not all of these games, have an M rating; meaning kids shouldn't be playing them in the first place unless a parent agrees. Yes, these games are violent, have blood, contribute to negative stereotypes, etc, whatever. However, they are clearly labeled as something not fit for a kid. Rather than get in a fit over content, this group really should get in a fit over how lax the enforcement of ESRB rating is. The system is in place, and working in so far as stating that these games are for mature audiences. It's the next step, retail distribution, where the biggest failing is.
  • You knew the answer to the question before you asked it, and I presume that most people on slashdot did also. So what's the point of this article?

  • Oh, Christ. (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Zenikase ( 622230 )
    Ironically, my urge to go on a homocidal rampage isn't provoked while playing Doom 3, but rather while reading the consistent bullshit propagated by these ignorant, self-righteous soccer moms.

    I can see Postal as a valid entry, since the whole premise of the game is rooted solely in bad taste. What was the result? Mediocre reviews and lukewarm reception from the crowd. I don't think anyone above the age of 13 played the game for more than ten minutes at a time.

    Does Halo even involve shooting at any human
  • No JFK Reloaded [jfk-reloaded.com]?

  • 1)Doom 3
    2)Grand Theft Auto: "San Andreas
    3)Gunslinger Girls 2
    4)Half Life 2
    5)Halo 2
    6)Hitman: Blood Money
    7)Manhunt
    8)Mortal Combat
    9)Postal 2
    10)Shadow Heart

    WTF??? Doom3 is worse than GTA:SA? Mortal Combat is violent maybe in a 1993 kinda way. It seems like they just looked at the history of the game's name in the media.

    Doom was a big bruhaha in 1995. New one must be bad.
    Uhh Mortal Combat has all this pixelated blood that we got a lot of press off of in 1992. Lets add it to the list.

    Doo

  • "Interfaith?" (Score:3, Funny)

    by Guppy06 ( 410832 ) on Wednesday November 24, 2004 @07:21PM (#10913967)
    We have both kinds of religions here, Catholics and Protestants!
  • Okay, so is Metroid Prime good are bad? I mean, the only woman is the main character, but she goes around killing different enemies. There's no blood, but there's "graphic" animation when you shoot or kill a space pirate. How about Super Smash Bros Melee, where Samus, Peach, or Zelda can be beat up? I see they listed Mortal Kombat, so I can only guess that any fighting game with a woman means violence against women. Back to Metroid Prime, if you're careless you and wonder into slime or shoot yourself w

  • holy cow (Score:2, Interesting)

    by AbsurdProverb ( 831079 )
    "I haven't played any of them." She backed up her willful ignorance of the games by suggesting that she didn't need to play Soldier of Fortune to know that she was opposed to its glorification of killing. "I think it's an irrelevant question," she concluded."

    I am an athiest but I still went to see the Passion of the Christ because I love movies and I was a Mel Gibson fan. That and I wanted to see it so I could at least have an opinion on it when I talked about it within my circle of friends. I don't see
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • Um, please tell me you know you are generalizing, right? That not all of us with XX chromsomal makeup are like that?

      Granted, I *despise* women who do what you are describing to the men in their life. I think no HUMAN should be doing that to any other (regardless of sex). I encourage my significant other in his hobbies, and only expect in exchange that he does the same. There are just as many controlling men out there as controlling women. People seem to lack respect in general for each other.

      That bei
  • How can they possibly understand if they never fragged their neighbor in the face with an RPG.
  • This was a great article. Don't you all wish the media would confront and challenge head on groups like this instead of just swallowing what they shovel out.

    So they don't like video games. Since their opinion is not well researched it should be given little or no weight.
  • Has anyone here played any of the Gunslinger Girl series?

    I think it is kind of, well, loony that it is on the list. It is only available in Japan, and the reason why I got so disgusted with Sony and stopped buying their systems in the first place is because they take their region coding very, very seriously. Not only do they region code their games, but they actively try to defend against anything that would break their region blocking like mod chips.

    The review of the anime series seems to indicate th

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