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First Person Shooters (Games) Your Rights Online

SteamWatch Offers Forum for Displeased Customers 171

Posted by Zonk from the letting-off-a-little dept.
paniq writes "SteamWatch has opened a forum to discuss the pros and cons of Valves online distribution software Steam 'due to constant deletion of complaint threads in the official Steam forum', as the site states. Installation of Steam to play Valves newest cutting edge shooter Half-Life 2 is mandatory, but forum members criticize Valve for meager Support, violation of consumer rights and formulate alternative ideas for Steams implementation. A 'Steam Watch' news section covers articles and rants about Steam found on the net."
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SteamWatch Offers Forum for Displeased Customers More

SteamWatch Offers Forum for Displeased Customers

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  • Consumer rights... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by elmegil ( 12001 ) on Tuesday November 30, 2004 @02:53PM (#10954896) Homepage Journal
    violation of consumer rights

    Last time I checked, nobody was holding a SPAS-12 to your head and forcing you to buy the product. Get your money back, don't play the game, and quit yer fucking whining.

    • Re:Consumer rights... (Score:3, Informative)

      by fireduck ( 197000 )
      the consumer rights violation complaint was about the original HL and how Steam was forced on the individual after the fact when WON went down. 5 years is a bit too long to return the game. As for the merit of the complaint, unless these people are lawyers, why should we give them the time of day? put up or shut up --- file a damn lawsuit and quit whinging on the 'net.

      • Re:Consumer rights... (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Marc_Hawke ( 130338 ) on Tuesday November 30, 2004 @03:17PM (#10955207)
        Since when was a lawsuit the FIRST option? And what makes you think some 15 year old kid could file one?

        No, really, the first thing you do is express your complaints to the company. When the company starts silencing those complaints (terrible move there) you move to an outside channel. (Which is what this story is about.)

        Once you've gotten a critical mass of like-minded people, you use a class-action lawsuit if the company hasn't addressed your concerns yet.

      • So how long did he get to play the game online before Steam was "forced down his throat"? Did he think he'd be able to play the game forever? Was that promised anywhere in the original EULA?

        So he got some play out of the original game, the terms changed to ones he didn't like, so he should sell it used (Computer Renassance and EBay come to mind) to recoup what he can and get on with his life.

        • An excellent point. Valve doesn't have to provide us with a multiplayer network, and many devs drop support a few years after the game has been released.

          Look at the Myth series, bungie.net was taken down a short while after Microsoft bought bungie. Sure, a couple third party networks have sprung up in the community (Marius Net [mariusnet.com] and Play Myth [playmyth.net]) but the game is not longer officially supported and thus the communities no longer grow.

          Valve could have left HL 1 for dead after 6 years of support, and I don'

    • Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)

      by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Tuesday November 30, 2004 @03:10PM (#10955121)
      Comment removed based on user account deletion
      • The new terms and conditions were only being imposed if the original agreement stated that HL multiplayer would be available through WON inperpetuity. If that was never stipulated then the closure of WON has no bearing whatsoever on what the user did afterwards. If it was never stipulated then the user chose to agree to the Steam agreement when HL MP moved there. His other option was to not agree and to not play HL MP.

    • Re:Consumer rights... (Score:3, Interesting)

      by bersl2 ( 689221 )
      Well, looking at the linked topic, I see that the writer argues that Valve has broken the terms of its EULA for the original Half-Life by converting it to use Steam. I'll bet that there's a clause in that EULA that gives Valve permission to modify the agreement whenever they want to.

      Furthermore, the writer talks of Valve not being liable for any hack of Steam that may infect anyone's computer. It hasn't dawned on the writer that it is standard practice to disclaim all liability.

      I agree with the parent, an

    • Re:Consumer rights... (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Khuffie ( 818093 )
      Except it forced people with the original Half-Life to install Steam in order to play the game and counter-strike.

      How the heck are those people gonna get their money back? When they bought Half-Life Steam didn't exist.

      • It forced people to install Steam _ONLY_ if they wanted to use the unsupported bonus material - namely, multiplayer. You don't and never will need to install Steam to install Half-life, or to install any of the pre-Steam updates to Half-life. You don't even have to install Steam to play online with the pre-Steam versions of Half-life. The _ONLY_ thing they removed were the master servers which listed what games you could connect to.

        Given that they provided services for people to play those games for free,
    • "Last time I checked, nobody was holding a SPAS-12 to your head and forcing you to buy the product. Get your money back, don't play the game, and quit yer fucking whining."

      Translation: "I'm enjoying the game and don't want to hear people legitimately badmouthing it."

    • Hey, next time, before you get all high and mighty, maybe you should READ THE FUCKING ARTICLE.

      The guy has some very valid complaints regarding games he already bought before Steam even existed.

      • Bullshit. Nowhere in the original EULA did it say "you can run this game forever without us ever changing the EULA, the server technologies, etc" Not valid in the slightest, and if you'd read the rest of this thread you might see where I've talked about that in more detail. The idiot is whining that he paid $50 for an ephemeral product and is whining that it doesn't have an infinite lifespan.
        • Nowhere in the original EULA did it say "you can run this game forever without us ever changing the EULA"

          That is ridiculous. You can't change a contract or license later down the line without either, a) both parties agreeing to the new contract, or b) the contract saying so explicitly that it can change and in what way it may change. The law even sets limits on this sort of thing.

          But these days we don't let years of legal precedent get in the way of companies with lots of money doing whatever they wan

    • your right, i spoke with my money, my rights were not vilolated. how? i did not buy HL2.

  • Online publishing - it's anyone's game now (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Japong ( 793982 ) on Tuesday November 30, 2004 @03:09PM (#10955107)

    This isn't all that surprising. Steam distribution was at first heralded as a way of getting away from the "big evil publishers" and creating an alternative for developers. But it still has to administer the accounts, and in the end its still run by a corporation whose end goal is to make the most amount of money possible. If anything, having an even further distancing between licensing a product and actually owning it can make potential abuses against the customers even worse.

    And for all those "they're not forcing you to buy it" people out there, of course they aren't, but if they'd remove the mandatory Stean registration I probably would have given them my $50 by now.

    • And for all those "they're not forcing you to buy it" people out there, of course they aren't, but if they'd remove the mandatory Stean registration I probably would have given them my $50 by now.

      And if they felt there were a really significant number of people so upset about Steam that they won't buy the game, they would probably remove it as a requirement. As it is, the game seems to be selling just fine.

    • Steam distribution was at first heralded as a way of getting away from the "big evil publishers" and creating an alternative for developers.

      Say hello to the new boss, same as the old boss.

      YLFI

  • Not all it seems... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 30, 2004 @03:12PM (#10955155)
    Don't be fooled, this website's open letter hides the fact that it is more dedicated to "people who haven't bought the game". -- ??? WTF is that?

    In other words, Steam gets in the way of pirating HL2 and they're pissed.

    Fuck you, buy it.

    They say it's for all those with grievances, but I highly suspect this is the nearly the same as a certain site promoting hacked UT/UT2004 servers (which believes that people who don't buy the game have a right to play online too...).

    For the record, few if any threads have been deleted on the Steam forums and the ones that have were complicated by people posting links to material that falls outside the forum T.O.S. and rules. I post there regularly and overall they are very leniant.

    • Re:Not all it seems... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Night Goat ( 18437 ) on Tuesday November 30, 2004 @04:54PM (#10956428) Homepage Journal
      Agreed. The open letter is a laugh. "We're not pirates, we're future customers!" Oh, you plan on buying the product later? Oh, OK, in that case go ahead and play it now. That just doesn't make sense. I've pirated software in the past, and I had no delusions of being in the right. I knew it was wrong, I was stealing plain and simple.
    • "In other words, Steam gets in the way of pirating HL2 and they're pissed."

      This mantra is often repeated on Slashdot and it doesn't align with reality. Steam is doing absolutely nothing to piracy. Pirates are getting cracked versions of the game. Why should they care about Steam? Their cracked single player game doesn't need it! As for multiplayer, CD keys were already working fine, so it's not as if Steam is making any inroads there. Maybe a couple pirates will have to spend 5 seconds downloading t

      • Do you have anything to back up your statement that "Steam is doing absolutely nothing to piracy"? Because it doesn't seem that everyone else agrees with you link [bbc.co.uk].

        Quote from that article: "Valve is taking really effective steps against people using illegitimate copies of Half-Life 2 "

        I don't own a PC powerful enough for HL2, and so it doesn't really affect me, but surely each time a game goes online for multiplayer sessions, it identifies itself? In which case, Valve can do all sorts of checks.
        • You do know that for technical issues, especially technical issues that have anything to do with piracy, the Beeb is little better than a press-release reprint agency, right?

          Yeah, from time to time one or two of the jouralists manage to get up a more well researched argument, but for the most part if company X tells them that Y is "doing great things to fight piracy" or industry X (which they conveniently forget has just had record sales) tells them it is being "destroyed by piracy" then they'll just bung
    • I played a friend's copy of Elite, then I bought my own.
      I played a friend's copy of Repton, then I bought my own.
      I played a friend's copy of Doom, then I bought my own, and Doom2, the Quakes, etc.
      I played a friend's copy of Half-Life, then I bought my own.
      I played a friend's copy of Dungeon Keeper 2, then I bought my own.
      I played a friend's copy of Populous 3, then I bought my own.
      I played a friend's copy of Settlers, then I bought my own.
      I played a friend's copy of Settlers 4, then I bought my own.
      I played
      • that I can't try a friend's copy of Half-Life, because no-one I know wants to install Steam on their system. I can't, because I don't have my own internet access until after new year, just a work connection and occasional access to friends' dial-up internet access and internet cafés.

  • Wow (Score:5, Funny)

    by Poseidon88 ( 791279 ) on Tuesday November 30, 2004 @03:17PM (#10955208)
    42 forum members. Vive la revolucion!!!

  • Not impressed so far... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by eviltypeguy ( 521224 ) on Tuesday November 30, 2004 @03:24PM (#10955281)
    I'm not terribly impressed with all the "poor victims" so far that have posted on the forums.

    Most of them are people that tried to use an illegtimate CD key or cracks, then bought the game when they couldn't get that to work, or felt guilty enough and bought it, and then got shut out of the game.

    Gee, screw someone over, then try to play nice and they don't react nicely to you? Never saw that coming...

    About the only legitimate post (obviously IMO) I've read there so far covers some of the interesting legal entanglements that come from Valve's EULA for Steam. Personally, I hope EULAs are abolished, or if not, that they would come back in a much simpler form.

    I think it's absolutely ridiculous to expect anyone but a lawyer to have to read through and understand the pages and pages of legal drek that come with each new game. How can anyone in their right minds expect a person who isn't an expert in contract law to fully understand and comprehend all their rights with a EULA. Nevermind the questionable legality of EULAs to begin with. Of course one might argue that an expert in contract law already knows that EULAs can't be legally binding since they don't fulfill many of the basic qualifications of a legal contract, but since IANAL I digress...
    • I think it's absolutely ridiculous to expect anyone but a lawyer to have to read through and understand the pages and pages of legal drek that come with each new game.

      While I'm sympathetic to this PoV, I have to point out that you're foolish to ignore the fact that you either DO have to read it all or you forfeit your right to complain when it has a surprise you don't like. Don't like that fact? Don't buy the game. Find something else to do with your life, or write your own games.

      • While I'm sympathetic to this PoV, I have to point out that you're foolish to ignore the fact that you either DO have to read it all or you forfeit your right to complain when it has a surprise you don't like. Don't like that fact? Don't buy the game. Find something else to do with your life, or write your own games.

        This is actually a good point, for now. If the UCTIA gets passed in more states, though, this could become moot, since the UCTIA can allow software makers to completely hide the EULA from th

  • Just don't buy it argument (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Lord_Dweomer ( 648696 ) on Tuesday November 30, 2004 @03:47PM (#10955605) Homepage
    I've seen the "if you don't like it, speak with your money" argument on here a few times, and have often made a similar argument in the past.

    However, I think one of the reasons this forum is a good thing is because Valve has screwed up royally. Many of their once happy customers are pissed. By letting them know, and letting other businesses know, we have an effect on the way things will turn out, however minor it may be.

    This frankly, is a good alternative to just not buying the game. Because if you don't buy the game, they have no reason of knowing you decided not to buy it because of Steam. They might just assume you didn't like the game.

    Which leads me to my next point. Instead of just not buying it, if you want to do something more effective, buy it and immediately return it, and be CRYSTAL CLEAR when you explain why to the person that it is because you are unhappy with Valve's choice in requiring Steam for this and you do not find it a satisfactory product. State this clearly and loudly.

    I know its wishful thinking, but at least you can DO something instead of just getting angry.

    • Yeah, and the minimum wage yokel at the counter is certain to immediately put a huge "did not like STEAM!" stamp atop the returned game box and send it, next day super-priority shipping, directly to Gabe Newell!

      What makes you think the clerk at the store you bought it has any way of contacting Valve about WHY it's being returned or, for that matter, even cares?
      • Better yet, not only will the message not get to Valve, but instead it'll go to Virindi, who already hate Steam because it's cutting into their retail business. AND it'll lower the number of actual retail boxes sold, which will support the idea that Steam is the way to go when they find out they've sold more HL2 on Steam then they did in the store.

        Way to shot yourself in the foot if your actual intent was to gum up the works. ^_^
    • Pesronally, I couldn't be happier with Steam. I got my game quickly and have been playing it non-stop. I switched computers, loaded up HL2 on it without having to bother to find my CD key or even the CD. I personally hope that more video game companies switch to this method. The fact that a company that I like is making an extra pile of cash just pleases me more. Hopefully they will crank out a few more worthwhile games with that money.

      Maybe there are people who could do without Steam and would like a

  • In case the site goes down... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Fedallah ( 25362 ) on Tuesday November 30, 2004 @03:50PM (#10955645) Homepage
    In case the forums site goes down, I found a mirror here.... [slashdot.org]

  • Alternative Opinion on Steam. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by JavaLord ( 680960 ) on Tuesday November 30, 2004 @05:00PM (#10956505) Journal
    I like steam. I bought HL condition zero just for the CS:Source beta. I didn't mind just paying for the Beta, because I figured I had gotten my moneys worth x 10 out of HL1 with the CS mod.

    I wasn't going to buy HL2, but a friend called me up one night last week and said he had HL2 and wanted to start playing CS:Source. I went onto steam and bought HL2 so I could play online with him. The nice thing is since I was in the Beta it was preloaded on my computer already. It took me about 10 minutes to be up and playing, where as if I could only buy the game in the store it would have had to wait until the next day never mind dealing with the sub-humans that work at my local best buy, or the fan-boiz at the local gameshop.

    I think steam is a great delivery system for games.
    • I think steam is a great delivery system for games.

      Aye, it is.

      The problem starts when, for example, to play the single player version of the game, you have to hit a Steam server.

    • > I think steam is a great delivery system for games.

      My PC is not a platform for a third party's content. Period.

      I haven't bought HL2. I won't buy it until there's a non-steam version of singleplayer, or a reliable crack. Two weeks ago, I'd have bought it retail from Vivendi and sent $20 to Valve on principle.

      I'm sufficiently disgusted with the way Valve has handled the situation that (when the nonsteam release, or the reliable crack, comes out - whichever comes first) I'll buy it retail from

      • I won't buy it until there's a non-steam version of singleplayer, or a reliable crack.

        The first part of your sentence is fully within your rights. The second part is not. If you don't like Steam, nobody is making you buy the game. Give up whining that you are justified to pirate the game because you don't like the terms it's sold under.

  • If I would have known that Half-Life 2 forced Steam on you, I wouldn't have bought it. That's all I need, another icon in my system tray supposedly to "help" me. Every time I start Half-Life 2 it goes out to the internet and searches for friends. It takes an extra 20 seconds to load the game because of this bloated idiotware. When I want to play a game, I just want to click the icon and be in.

    To the people that say "get your money back", don't they know you can't return software if it has been opened?

    • Amen.

      It's funny to me how many Steam apologists there are on Slashdot while Microsoft's authentication system was decried as evil. Wait until Steam attaches your PC's specs to your registered games and then refuses to authenticate when you try to install the games on a new computer. Then we'll see how many "you should have read the EULA" apologists are left.

    • If you didn't know that, you're an idiot who wasn't paying attention for the last 2 or 3 years, as Steam has been "required" for all of Valve's games for a while now...

  • I know no one believes this but... (Score:4, Informative)

    by slaker ( 53818 ) on Tuesday November 30, 2004 @06:32PM (#10957563)
    There are still people in the world using modems.
    Those people - particularly the ones who can't manage 33.6k - are pretty much fucked with a knife if they bought Halflife 2 with some expectation of being able to play the game from the crap that's in the box.

    That's a VERY legitimate complaint about Steam. Last year - I couldn't get broadband before October 2003 - I tried to play Counterstrike over ~44k and I was absolutely outraged that the only thing out of that box that was useful was the serial number. If I installed the game that was in the box I didn't have a way to connect up-to-date to CS servers. In order to download the updates I either had to let steam run for days to download the required updates, or download a lump installer from a registration-only game site. Steam literally locked me out of a game that I owned.

    Objection to steam is NOT just about pirates wanting to pirate. I own multiple copies of HL2 (ATI coupons) and I won't install it unless I can install the *SINGLE PLAYER GAME* without all the steam bullshit.
    • yay! One person with a legitimate complaint about Steam!

      By the way, does the box state that it requires download or network access? If it does, that kinda negates your point. But if it doesn't, you're the only person I've seen here so far that has a real beef. Assuming you're one of those with the modem :-)

      • The ATI coupons don't. :P

        And yes, I have broadband now. But that doesn't mean I think fucking every single person on a modem is a good idea (unless they're all hot chicks, and it's the kind of fucking where I get to score...)

        This is *not* the "era of broadband" in the US. Maybe in Korea or Finland but here in the US Broadband users are still a minority.
  • For years I played TFC on my little 56k modem and crappy machine. I had alot of fun.. then WON was taken down and whenever I tried to use STEAM it killed me. my PC just crashed right out, no reason or anything.

    Now I bought HL twice, OP4 twice, BS twice, CS (was in a boxset), CS:CZ (which I've never played) and I'm spending £600 tomorrow on a new PC so I can play HL2. Now I'd say I'm pretty much addicted to Half-life in general.

    Now I understand I don't buy "a game", I buy a licence to play the game a
  • People are saying that Valve has no responsability to their consumers, which shows just how messed up the "marketplace" has gotten. Yes the seller has a responsability to their customers, you can't sell something that doesn't work, advertise falsely, the original EULA can have some terrible stuff in it because software is never seen as nescessary (even a monopoly like Microsoft is exempt) because software used to be written in house and the law's reflect that.

    But what valve is doing in terms of forced obs
  • I can't say much for petty complaints claiming that 'when a thief returns the goods to pay for them, he ceases to be a thief', but steam does offer some very real problems which should be addressed by valve with priority.

    For example, right now i'm typing in slashdot because the HL2 SDK is "updating" with no evidence of progress...
    Meanwhile, i'm unable to *play* HL2, let alone download the HL2 update while playing a different game (CS Source or Codename Gordon for example) because valve have decided to set
  • I'm a new Steam customer. I paid my $50, pre-downloaded Half-Life 2, started playing immediately upon release.

    It's mostly been OK, but I've had issues running my single-player game. It is annoying that you have to connect to Steam each time you want to play the game. I mean, come on -- check for updates IF I ASK FOR IT but give me a simple checkbox that allows me to turn off the per-use authentication. I paid for it, you've authorized it, now leave me alone for a while to enjoy my game!
    PS: I logged into St

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