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Games Entertainment

Reflections On The Revolution 71

Posted by Zonk from the two-great-tastes dept.
Kotaku has been reporting from the Digital Interactive Entertainment Conference this past week, and they have a short piece on Industry giants talking about gaming on the Revolution. From the article: "Miyamoto keeps dropping his receiver, which is connected to an earpiece through which English is translated into Japanese. The perky student that greeted me at the door tells me that they didn't have money for a Japanese-to-English translator, meaning that I have to pay extra attention to what Miyamoto's saying right now. He's talking about the Revolution controller."
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Reflections On The Revolution More

Reflections On The Revolution

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  • The Controller (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Eightyford ( 893696 ) on Saturday December 03, 2005 @08:59PM (#14175922) Homepage
    What's to stop Microsoft or Sony from creating their own copy of this controller design?

    • Re:The Controller (Score:5, Insightful)

      by MBCook ( 132727 ) <foobarsoft@foobarsoft.com> on Saturday December 03, 2005 @09:11PM (#14175974) Homepage
      Nothing. Good ideas get copied.

      Now that would be an obvious nod to Nintendo. It would also validate them and help the Revolution get games.

      However, doing that will have one serious problem for MS and Sony (unless their version tops Nintendo's). We all know how well "required" accessories sell for consoles. look at anything from the PS2 broadband adapter, to the GC broadband adapter, to the Sega CD, to the PS2 HD, to the Sega 32X, to most any light-gun (Guncon, Menecer, Super Scope, etc), to the N64 memory upgrade. They just don't get the penetration to make them terribly useful. Most companies won't make designs that require them because "nobody owns one". So unless Halo 3 and FF XII require it, it will probably stay as an afterthought on the the PS3 and XBox 360.

      This means more than likely games wouldn't support it, would "tack on" support (like some of the early DS games, where it just hurt the experience), it would need the controller but you could play with the regular (thus must people would think it was terrible because the control with the normal controller would be terrible), or you will HAVE to have the controller and you won't be able to use the old one (thus the price of entry is $30 higher and sales will suffer).

      Nintendo has the right solution. I think we will see Sony and MS copy them, but it won't be until the PSP 2, PS 4, or XBox 720.

      • Re:The Controller (Score:4, Interesting)

        by MBCook ( 132727 ) <foobarsoft@foobarsoft.com> on Saturday December 03, 2005 @09:29PM (#14176056) Homepage
        Well, I thought a little more and there is one possibility that I should mention.

        Both the PS and the Saturn got analog controllers after launch (ostensibly because they saw how good the N64's analog stick helped things). Now both controllers got a lot of use, much more than most add-on peripherals. The fact that those controllers started being bundled with the consoles did help quite a bit.

        But the analog stick was obvious, and the control scheme was very close to the old d-pad (just more accurate) so the games didn't suffer as much if you didn't have one as the difference between the Revolution controller and a current controller. Plus the Sega controller had something of a killer app in Knights: Into Dreams.

        My point is if they realize early enough and start packing in, they could adapt during the generation, but it would have to be near the later half of the generation (like the analog controllers). Short of a couple of killer-apps each (a new GTA might be able to do it for the PS3), Nintendo will have the lead in the controller area.

        PS: Other things: U-Force for NES, any dance pad (and the running mat for the NES), that octagonal controller for the SNES/Genesis that could detected punches and kicks, the SNES mouse, the PS mouse, the Dreamcast keyboard, the power glove, and many others (note: I realize some of these were third party). And, most obvious of all: steering wheels. They have been around forever (arguably the paddle controllers for the 2600) and are obviously useful, but games are forced to allow normal controls because so few people own them.

        • Re:The Controller (Score:3, Insightful)

          by Guppy06 ( 410832 )
          "Both the PS and the Saturn got analog controllers after launch (ostensibly because they saw how good the N64's analog stick helped things). Now both controllers got a lot of use, much more than most add-on peripherals. The fact that those controllers started being bundled with the consoles did help quite a bit."

          True, but try to find a PlayStation game that required the analog stick. Just about every published PSX game I can think of was playable with the old digital pads, simply because there was still no

      • Re:The Controller (Score:1, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward
        Among consoles, Nintendo has led the controller revolution in the past. Weren't they responsible for introducing the rumble feature and the analog stick? They'll be copied in time, but once again, points for innovation will go to Nintendo. Of the big three, Nintendo's the only company with any heart whatsoever, whereas I'm concerned.

        • Re:The Controller (Score:5, Insightful)

          by MBCook ( 132727 ) <foobarsoft@foobarsoft.com> on Saturday December 03, 2005 @09:55PM (#14176161) Homepage
          True. Nintendo introduced the analog stick. They introduced the rumble pack. They introduced the d-pad (before that you only had joysticks and possibly seperate buttons, they put it together in the classic + shape). They added shoulder buttons.

          Before Nintendo what did we have? Little joysticks (2600), paddles (2600), and sets of buttons like a telephone pad (Intellivision). Of course, that idea didn't completely die (see the Jaguar pad).

          Nintendo seems to bring it all to us. It gets refined by other companies (Sony added the 2nd analog stick, and introduced built in rumble as opposed to an add-on), but Nintendo is the master so far.

          • Re:The Controller (Score:3, Insightful)

            by blincoln ( 592401 )
            Nintendo introduced the analog stick.

            The Atari 5200 and the Apple II both had analogue joysticks as standard.

            They introduced the d-pad (before that you only had joysticks and possibly seperate buttons, they put it together in the classic + shape).

            The Intellivision controllers were d-pads. They were just round instead of a plus.

            They added shoulder buttons.

            I think this could arguably be from earlier controller designs too. The Colecovision, Intellivision, and Atari 5200 all had buttons that would be "shoulder

            • Re:The Controller (Score:3, Interesting)

              by AuMatar ( 183847 )
              Nintendo had the first analog thumbstick, different from joystick.

              The Nintendo D pad was digital, as compared to the analog Intellivision. Very different gameplay from the two. Sega Genesis used an analog only because N had the patent on digital
              • The Nintendo D pad was digital, as compared to the analog Intellivision.

                The Intellivision has a digital pad. Everything in the controller works like a modern keyboard - you're pressing two bits of plastic membrane together to make a connection.

                Are you maybe confusing the controller interface with the way the controller itself works? The NES has digital connections for the controllers - they're serial ports, IIRC - but the actual buttons and pads on the NES, Genesis, and Intellivision are all digital in that
            • God I hated the boys at apple for that. You could buy a digital stick / dpad for the generic sega/amiga/amstra/etc plug for like $15. But nooooooooo, apples had to get $80 rare-as-hen's-teeth analog things, with so many complicated moving parts they broke after 12 months.

              Lousy 80s.

              LONG LIVE CREEPY CORRIDOORS!

            • Re:The Controller (Score:2, Interesting)

              by Judge_Fire ( 411911 )
              The Intellivision controllers were d-pads. They were just round instead of a plus.

              But they had 16 directions, equally accessible, without needing to hold down two buttons as in d-pad diagonals. It was a great controller [wikipedia.org].

              J

    • Re:The Controller (Score:3, Insightful)

      by shoptroll ( 544006 )
      Because they probably expect to dominate the other in the current market, and will let Nintendo go off and do it's own thing?

      I've told several people that I'm interested to see if the Revolution controller will become the new standard if the system does well in this console war, which is an idea everyone scoffs at.
    • Believe it or not, patents can be applied not only to software, but hardware too. I think that's what they were made for, actually. But I'm not too sure. I'll have to verify that.

  • Other Mentions (Score:5, Informative)

    by MBCook ( 132727 ) <foobarsoft@foobarsoft.com> on Saturday December 03, 2005 @09:16PM (#14176002) Homepage
    I can't wait for the Revolution. The PS3 and the 360 are nice, but they are more of the same. The Revolution is the one that really interests me.

    However, I just saw a article [kotaku.com] on Kotaku [kotaku.com] that says a top guy from Valve is very excited about the Revolution (as is Kojima).

    Plus, apparently Miyamoto hinted at that same event [4colorrebellion.com] that there is still some big feature of the Revolution that is under-wraps. Considering what they've already showed us, I can't wait to see what else they've got up their sleeves.

    • Re:Other Mentions (Score:1, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Plus, apparently Miyamoto hinted at that same event [4colorrebellion.com] that there is still some big feature of the Revolution that is under-wraps.

      The controller doubles as a Fleshlight [fleshlight.com].
    • I heard about that other feature. It is going to revolutionize the future. Basically, instead of hooking up to the TV, the Revolution will hook up to this 3d display that goes on your head. I know you might say, "this has already been done for years," but get this, instead of being in color, it will be in red. It will be awesome.
    • Interesting that you consider PS3 and 360 more of the same when Nintendo's innovation is putting out more sequels. I don't see how Nintendo is any more innovative than anyone else in regards to software when all you get are Mario, Zelda, Metroid, etc... repeats. I currently have an XBox, PS2, and Gamecube. I've bought the least amount of software for the Gamecube and played it the least amount simply because I was tired of playing the same game with new graphics. What makes PS2 and XBox better is the 3r
      • Yes, because as we all know, Nintendo is the only one who ships sequels for their big franchises.

        And you've got it all wrong. All the mario stuff is the same graphics, but in lots of different games.

        I've got all three systems as well, except I've bought the most amount of software for the Gamecube. Go figure.

        Oh, and you're conveniently ignoring the whole hardware side of things, which is basically what the parent post was referring to when he mentioned the Revolution. Hard to imagine him considering the sof

      • Re:More of the same (Score:2, Interesting)

        by justchris ( 802302 )
        Actually, you're blatantly incorrect.

        Unless you're going to tell me that Super Mario Bros. is the same game as Mario 64.

        Perhaps the original Legend of Zelda is the same game as Ocarina of Time, or perhaps it'd be better to compare it to Zelda 2?

        There is a difference between franchises and sequels. GTA3 is in the same franchise as GTA2, but isn't really a sequel. They had the technology to improve the game, and made it a different game, but with a similar name.

        Mario has Mario Party, Paper Mario, Mario Kart

        • Let's look at the games you mentioned:

          Mario Party, as you stated, has had MANY sequels
          Paper Mario, this IS a sequel on the Gamecube, read some of the reviews, it's essentially the same game, just different graphics (for the record, I finished this game since I didn't play the first one)
          Mario Kart, the only "innovation" here is having two characters on one car, otherwise, it's the same game as on N64. I would actually say that Mario Kart on the SNES was superior gameplay wise to the Gamecube version (for th
          • Notice every single game you mentioned was a Gamecube game? That has been the major complaint about the gamecube, at least from Nintendo fans, who don't buy into the Kiddy image. It's that all Nintendo's greatest franchises have produced nothing but sequels on the new system. When you get used to jumpng from Super Mario Bros 3 to Super Mario World to Mario 64, and then you get Mario Sunshine, not matter how good a game sunshine is, it feels like a let down.

            I wasn't trying to say that sequels are bad, o

      • Mario repeats? I wish there were more of them (assuming you mean Mario 64 style games, and aren't confusing characters and gameplay).
      • I don't see how Nintendo is any more innovative than anyone else in regards to software

        Personally I don't think Nintendo's been any more innovative than anyone else in the colors they use for their AC adapters, either, as long as we're limiting the discussion to score "points."

        Yeah, it is kind of hard to say that the software's no different when no games have been announced for the new machine. But apparently you didn't notice that the Revolution controller is something new and completely unlike the "We

  • El Controller & El Price (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday December 03, 2005 @09:27PM (#14176050)
    Any word on what the revolution will cost? I'm hoping it's in to $200 range, that'd be sweet & affordable.

    Also, what's the big deal about the controller? The only revolutionary thing about it that I've heard is that it's got a gyroscopic motion detector. Is there anything else, or should I be more excited about gyroscopes?
    • $200 sounds promising, and I'd be amazed at any release version above $300.

      As for the controller... I'm wondering that too. I think it will be very pick up and play, but for those of us who have been using mice, keyboards and joypads for the last decade or two, I don't think a controller that's easy to learn to use, is anything special. Beyond that, I've heard suggestions it would be great for sword fighting, golf and fishing.

      Fishing controllers are nothing new:

      http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/ [amazon.com]

      • Re:El Controller & El Price (Score:4, Insightful)

        by NanoGator ( 522640 ) on Saturday December 03, 2005 @10:29PM (#14176276) Homepage Journal
        "but I don't think this is some miracle controller that we'll wonder how ever did without..."

        Can't say I agree with that. I just tried to play the XBOX 360 demo game... err.. forget the name but it's a WWII game where ya run around and shoot etc. Couldn't stand trying to aim my gun. I ached badly for the Rev controller.
        • I ached badly for the Rev controller.

          Don't jump the gun. For all you know, the Revolution controller will function like a floaty, laggy air-joystick.

          Couldn't stand trying to aim my gun.

          It's a bit hard to get used to freelook with a thumbstick. Up the sensitivity, practice, and it gets kinda okay. What you have to remember is that console FPSes are designed to be beatable with such a control setup.

          • Don't jump the gun. For all you know, the Revolution controller will function like a floaty, laggy air-joystick.

            Yeah, that's definitely a possibility, but if Nintendo has any sense at all, the controller will be as responsive as traditional analog stick methods. Nintendo isn't stupid, and they know for a fact that no one will put up with a laggy control scheme.
          • "Don't jump the gun. For all you know, the Revolution controller will function like a floaty, laggy air-joystick."

            Fair point. One of the reasons I took it for granted that it'll behave well is that IGN reported that the Metroid Prime demo worked really well. You'd be correct in saying, however, that I should hold off my expectations of the Rev controller until I've tried it.

          • "Don't jump the gun. For all you know, the Revolution controller will function like a floaty, laggy air-joystick."

            Like my sibling posts have already pointed out, hands-on impressions seem to imply otherwise.

            A 1up [1up.com] editor said that "It always shot exactly where it felt like I was aiming, and was incredibly responsive to even slight wrist movements-I barely had to move my hand at all."
            IGN [ign.com] claims that "It was easy to get a feel for just how sensitive the device is -- it responded to all the movements quic

            • LOL @ previews.

              Previews are always positive, especially for a hot new item such as this. Write something offensive and the Big N doesn't send you a demo unit next time.

              That said, I certainly hope the controller works well.

              • Riiiight. Like, for example, when journalists at IGN played preview copies of Geist and criticized it for three years straight. That didn't stop them from getting one of the first review copies (which, incidentally, they also rated poorly). The same situation happens with dozens of journalists and dozens of products. A lot of the media expressed disappointment with the PSP showings at the last two E3s. Did that stop Sony from giving them advance copies of GTA:LCS? Heck no.

                You can hold your conspiracy
      • You do not understand the level of control this offers. You see only the motion aspect. Think about the pointing possibilities, and imagine the kinds of games that could benefit from such control.

        Let me put it this way, I think that one of the genres that will benefit most from the revolution controller is traditional sports games. The pointing will be the key.
        • I can see some definite sports uses. Want to pass? You don't have to remember what button is what teammate- just point at the reciever. Sounds like it would be good for qb and basketball games.
    • Yes, you should be more excited. Gyroscopes, accelerometers plus some kind of positioning system. Full six degrees of freedom at wide movement range and full 360 degrees rotation range. As opposed to classic joystick-like manipulator, with 2 degrees of freedom and maybe 30 degrees rotation range.
      That means the manipulator can act as: Knife, gun, pen, mouse, fishing rod, joystick, driving grip (motorbikes), tennis rocket, and mostly everything you hold in hand and move around, that doesn't give you important
      • I want a tennis rocket.
      • Full six degrees of freedom at wide movement range and full 360 degrees rotation range.

        I've read as much as I could find about the controller, but I've never found anything that explicitly states these facts, so I'm a little worried it might not have full 6dof absolute positioning.

        In the pictures of the device, it appears to have a window on the top of it, very similar to the LED window on most remote controls. At first I assumed it was just to allow the thing to act as a universal remote, or at lea
        • if it is optical positioning it probably works more like an optical mouse without the laser, looking at the room and using that image to detect motion and rotation

          • Re:Are you sure about that? (Score:4, Informative)

            by Boogaroo ( 604901 ) on Sunday December 04, 2005 @03:16AM (#14177109) Homepage
            I'm a bit tired at the moment, but I seem to recall there being two radio thingys to stick next to the TV.
            Triangulation would be the method used, it's not optical. No way could an LED interface do what Nintendo is having these controllers do. The Power Glove was IR, I know(I actually did pretty well with the thing playing Zelda 2), but unless Nintendo's come up with magic to improve IR these are guaranteed to be RF.
            • It's most likely used for precise screen positioning - gun aiming. Method similar to light pen, or classic "optical pistols" used in video games. I DOES have "something in common" with positioning but it's just one of many positioning systems contained in the controller.
            • I'm almost certain the power glove was ultrasonic, not IR. It could track a huge number of degrees of freedom, and I've even seen people hook it up to a PC and use it as a full data glove (albeit not a highly precise one).
            • You are correct about the Revmote. It uses 2 sensors and triangulation for positioning. Nintendo hasn't stated whether it uses gyroscopes for angular movement detection, or if it also uses the sensors for that as well. I don't think they ever stated whether it used RF, but I think that most likely what is used.
              • I don't think they ever stated whether it used RF

                Bluetooth in fact, according to this [gamesradar.com]. (Then again, he's a marketing head, he might not be the most knowledgeble person technically...)

                I'm guessing if they really are using triangulation to determine the controller position, there would have to be another sensor point in the console iteself in addition to the two external ones.
            • Wavebird was RF, so there's no reason not to use it for Revolution also.
          • Interesting idea, but I don't think that would work particularly well. You'd have problems with low light, and certain environments (big white walls, etc). You could probably detect twisting pretty well (rotating around the length of the controller, but on the other axes it would be hard to separate linear and angular movement.
      • The one issue I keep forseeing with the Revolution controllers is how they will work force feedback and recalibration. I mean...so you're swinging a "lightsaber" in a game. What happens when they make contact? Its not like it has force feedback to halt your controller in the air.

        • That's the only point where it can't simulate "real world".
          It will rumble.
          That's all.
          And that's what I meant by "swordfight may suck".
          A tennis rocket makes contact with the ball for a fraction of second.
          The fishing rod, the throwing knife - no force feedback. Steering grip - very little feedback, road bumps etc. Gun - recoil at most.
          There is still no way to simulate the material resistance. Most likely it will be in the next Nintendo, a servo-rotated heavyweight gyroscope that makes turning it hard, when no
          • Magnets man, it's all about the incredible, life extending power of magnets. You get some gloves, put them in a box with electro magnets around the edges and then you can push pull, stop twist, rumble and otherwise mangle the players hands however the game wishes. Of course safety and practicallity will first have to take a jump.
        • Yes, there's some reason to worry about that, but I look at it this way.

          Anyone who's never used a sword, when they get such a game, will swing it in an attempt to decapitate everyone, or push it far forward to skewer them.

          After which it will be blocked, and while they're trying to recover, they'll get lightsabered to death, which will teach them not to do that.

        • I don't see force feedback, but there's a "home" button for recalibration. Want to sit somewhere else in a multiplayer game without telling your character to walk off a cliff? Just hold down home while you do it.
    • "Also, what's the big deal about the controller? The only revolutionary thing about it that I've heard is that it's got a gyroscopic motion detector. Is there anything else, or should I be more excited about gyroscopes?" The Reveloution will sense the controller's postion in relation to the TV, not just the tilt, full detection in X,Y, and Z axis.
    • "Also, what's the big deal about the controller? The only revolutionary thing about it that I've heard is that it's got a gyroscopic motion detector. Is there anything else, or should I be more excited about gyroscopes?"

      It will also make coffee and confort you when you feel sad
      j/k
    • The expansion port gets lost amid the hubbub over the motion/tilt sensing (which is not gyroscopic, from my understanding); it lets developers add whole controller segments. Nintendo's going to make good use of it, but since many core functions are handled by the Revolution controller (e.g. power supply, console connection, motion sensing), it could also make custom controller segments cheap enough to be designed for and included with individual games: racing wheels, fishing rods, custom button configurati
  • I hate to ask it but has there been any footage of any game for the Rev at all yet?

    Sure, the controller is nice, but has there even been a single screen shot about what the content on the system is going to be?
    • I hate to ask it but has there been any footage of any game for the Rev at all yet?

      No.

      I'm a little astounded that people are so excited based only on what their imaginations are conjuring up as possibilities for what they assume the controller will be able to do.

      • Re:Games? (Score:3, Insightful)

        by AuMatar ( 183847 )
        Blame it on the utter lack of anything new except a processing boost on any of the other systems.
      • Why? It'll be like the 360 and the ps3 visually... More polygons, better textures. We've seen it. We're over it. And the fact that the PS2 outsold the GC and XBOX makes it pretty clear that having the best graphics doesn't count for much, and it's all about games and (mainly in the US) perceived cool, ie "the cool kids have one" advertising.
        • There's also the fact that screenshots generally tell us zero about how the gameplay will work/feel. And double that when you consider the new control mechanism. If Nintendo puts out screenshots, or even movies probably, then they'll just be playing into that same marketing game about shaders and pixels and textures...all that number crunching stuff that they're trying so hard to convince people isn't the real point of games.

          The revolution games will probably be a lot like the DS, in that for the really int
      • Exactly, not a single second of game footage shown, and it's already generating more excitement than the Xbox 360 which has already been released. I'm pretty sure that's what they were going for with the new controller. It's unlikely they'll show game footage until early next year. It's still at least 6 months to system release, so they have plenty of time.

    • Re:Games? (Score:2, Informative)

      by jchenx ( 267053 )
      No public footage. However, several demos were shown to the press (http://hardware.gamespot.com/Story-ST-15143-2567- x-x-x [gamespot.com]). It sounded like it was more "proof of concept" type of stuff. We'll have to see how it pans out in the end.
  • This would be the first home system that would adequately have hardware support for that game.

    Someone must see this, and come out with a proper sniper game.

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