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Games Entertainment

On Single-Player Competition 59

Posted by Zonk from the not-just-online dept.
Via Ars Technica, a post on the Major League Gaming site about the return of single-player competition (ala arcade games) with the likes of Xbox Live Arcade. From the article: "Once it stops being really enjoyable and just becomes work, you move on to another game and rarely come back. But imagining myself playing Resident Evil 4 with online leaderboards showing high scores in the missionary mode or a timed 'kill as many bad guys as you can' mini-game brings a smile to my face. I know for a fact I would be playing Super Mario Sunshine every now and then to try to get the fastest time for beating a certain level if there were leaderboards that everyone could plainly see after they beat a level."
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On Single-Player Competition More

On Single-Player Competition

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  • So it seems that the proof for the Speed Demos Archive lies in the video, correct?

    I mean, it's a great concept but I can put an NES game on my Dreamcast and up the speed to 1.5x using NesterDC and record that.

    Maybe that looks a little fishy so instead I play the game regularly on the NES and capture the video at a rate of 30 frames per second. Then I load it into Gordian Knot [sourceforge.net] and just remove a frame or two for every 15, inching my time up a half minute or so overall.

    How would they protect agains
    • They would probably protect against it by timing through the game and updating the web portal. I seriously doubt they would allow video submissions for something like that. It can be fixed too easily.
    • I'm not familiar with the Speed Demos Archive, but I do know that NESVideos [bisqwit.iki.fi] (a similar site) only takes submissions in the form of emulator movies - basically a recorded set of inputs. They load it up with their own rom of the game (known to be good), and record the actual video from that.

      • I do know that NESVideos (a similar site) only takes submissions in the form of emulator movies - basically a recorded set of inputs. They load it up with their own rom of the game (known to be good), and record the actual video from that.

        So how do they distinguish traditional speed runs (one continuous recording at full speed) from tool-assisted speed runs (recorded in slow motion, with sections repeatedly re-recorded, or both)?

    • The original Quake series had quite a few time challanges. E1M7 If I recall correctly was the really fun one. Those 'videos' where actually in game positioning streams. So to play them back you had to open the game and run the video. You could still hack it I supose to trim some time, but the work require to do so would be insane.

      -Rick
    • Most of the videos were captured by SDA's own equiment - the runners send the VHS tapes in via USPS. If the play itself comes into question, the runner has to provide camcorded proof of ability, otherwise it could be rejected.
    • Well, my guess is that they'd watch the video. 2 - 4 frames a second just vanishing would create very noticeable juddering, especially on older 2D games, and the sound would be messed up. Not to mention they could just compare the movement speed of the character in your run with self-made footage of the game and notice it's significantly faster. And if your time is significantly shorter than someone elses with no apparent improvements, that's suspicious. Besides, we already know they can deal with these ki

  • Wait 'til you see my pong scores (Score:5, Funny)

    by farker haiku ( 883529 ) on Thursday February 02, 2006 @02:27PM (#14628103) Journal
    I'll OWN you at single player pong. I can't wait!

  • Not only the worldwide leaderboards... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by wedgewu ( 701989 ) on Thursday February 02, 2006 @02:29PM (#14628138) Homepage
    Your friends list leaderboard is even more compelling. It's easy to say "I can't compete with those guys, they spend all their time playing games." However, when you're faced with your friend whom you KNOW is around the same level as you... well, you're even more compelled to beat the snot out of their score so that you can rub it in their faces later.

    Being able to filter the leaderboard by your friends is pure genius...

    • The worldwide leaderboards will be filled with two guys, each one vying for the top slot, while everyone else sighs and goes away.
      Personally, I think the DS WiFi high-scores would be better if they had a more community-based system, using individual DS codes, instead of just "So and so scored 150,000,000 on X Tony Hawk level. Go cry."
      • Why do the same thing over and over again. I don't play any sport because to be any good at it, means doing the same thing over and over again, some call that dedication, I just call it boring.

        Learning a game is the most fun, playing ad nauseum is just playing it ad nauseum. Of course for a younger more competitive generation anything that raises them in the eyes of the peers will be worthwhile and from some greedy corporate ass wipe financially exploitable.

  • Highscores were a huge part of gaming in the 80's. Even later games like Mario Cart and Goldeneye made great use of fastest times. Competition is great, but some people really don't like playing online games against a bunch of obnoxious 12 year olds.
    • You've given me flashbacks of beating the fastest times on Goldeneye... *shudder*... some were haaaard.
      • Facility. My best time was 1:40-something. I was fucking PUMPED the first time I beat 2:05.

        Ah, freshman year, good times....
        • I remember at the time, it seemed nigh-on impossible, and I knew one uber-geek who'd done it. But I find now, after too much Perfect Dark, Counterstrike and Half Life, I could definately do it.......... ...and am so close to dusting off that '64 just to see. I want blastcorps though. Now THAT's a hard game.
    • One of my proudest middle school achievements was borrowing my friend's Super Mario Cart cartridge and systematically trouncing each one of his best times. The look on his face when he realized that he was pwned at his own game was priceless. Ah, to be a caffeine-addicted 12 year-old again...
      • Heh, Virtual Fighter, PS. Some 5 hours of training with a friend, really elite player, but using the mad doctor and his crazy fighting style. It took me 1h to master a technique to PWN any enemy in the game (including my friend), then him 4h to develop a counter-technique to finally stop losing to me and get back the (well deserved) leadership.
        And then the deep jawdrop in the arcade salon, when I picked the doctor and went through the whole game, beating the shit off all my opponents :) And a crowd gathered
        • Pick a niche style/mode if you want to have a moment of fame for yourself too :)

          Orchid owns. You've got to love when the arcade comes by to see you whip out a 50 hit combo. Not to mention the Ultra Combo finisher.

          (If you don't know what game I'm talking about, you wouldn't understand anyway.)

  • Online Websites (Score:3, Interesting)

    by AKAImBatman ( 238306 ) <akaimbatman AT gmail DOT com> on Thursday February 02, 2006 @02:33PM (#14628180) Homepage Journal
    Indie games have been doing this for a LONG time. Most of their games have built-in highscore routines to sync up scores with the server. Sites like AtariAge [atariage.com] run online competitions for high scores. Heck, even the game I linked to in my sig solicits high scores.

    The biggest problem is that it's no longer an arcade rivalry. You're not fighting with that one other guy who comes into the arcade every day. You're fighting with everyone in the world. And no matter how good you are, there's almost always someone way better out there. Which means that you're already defeated before you even start. There's no way you can touch some of those high scores.

    At least with the Indies, some of them develop small communities around the game, keeping the competition intense. As soon as the floodgates are open, though, there's no real point in competing.
    • Unless you find a cheat.
      I managed some impressive score in some flash-based game by running it on very slow, old machine, resizing the browser window to some narrow column shape etc. Nothing illegal, just marginal, rare conditions. Scratch the CD, the race track will fail to load, you'll be in the middle of open field with just the start/finish gate and you'll beat the race in 15 seconds, taking 3s to finish a lap by circling the gate post. Happens. How are they going to stop it?
    • It would be cool if it broke it down by categories. Perhaps by state, county, etc. Then, even if there is no way you could be at the top of the international all time high score, you could be the best in your town or state or whatever other category they break it down into.
    • I know there are people better than me (my time is at least 10 minutes from optimal), but I'm still here http://speeddemosarchive.com/MetroidPrime.html#har d [speeddemosarchive.com].
    • That's why it's great to have a friends filter. I don't care about not being #1 in the world, since that's a damned hard thing to achieve. But I DO care about being #1 among all my friends (at least those on my list).

    • And no matter how good you are, there's almost always someone way better out there. Which means that you're already defeated before you even start. There's no way you can touch some of those high scores.

      Then have it rank players by percentile and then compare your percentile to those of other accounts on your buddy list. Even if you can't get to the 99.9 percentile, if you're at 92.6 and those on your buddy list are lower, you still have something to brag about.

    • Sites like AtariAge run online competitions for high scores. Heck, even the game I linked to in my sig solicits high scores.
      For those of us who play Ace Combat (specifically 4 & 5), you might want to check out this site [www.ne.jp] as an example of 'home-grown' online scorekeeping.
  • The main issue here is that cheating is so much easier with single player. Traditionally, single player games haven't had near the cheating protections of multi-player online games. It's also easier to catch people cheating when all the action is happening live on a server, then when it's all happening on someone's personal computer and they'd just upload score info :) This idea will only work for server hosted games. Otherwise you'll have people hacking the data upload or the game itself and have scores li
    • If you look at the top Mariokart time trial sites, they make you prove your score, either by screenshot or with video and if it still a little suspicious, you play an online game to show off your technique.

      • If you look at the top Mariokart time trial sites, they make you prove your score, either by screenshot or with video and if it still a little suspicious, you play an online game to show off your technique.

        Does this only work for Mario Kart DS? The other four Mario Kart games didn't have online play. Do people who specialize in the Super NES, N64, GBA, or GameCube iterations of the franchise have to buy a Nintendo DS and become skilled at another MK title just to prove that he or she didn't do some sort

        • I was speaking more of MarioKart DS. In the future with Revolution getting online, I predict that if you want you can play SNES mario kart with people around the world as well.
    • Unless XBox360 DRM protection lives up to its promises.
      Snowflake's chance in hell?
  • Arc's Superplay Temple [comcast.net]

    Many timeattacks and speedruns on this site.
    Read the faq [comcast.net] if you don't know the difference between a timeattack and a speedrun =)

  • Project Gotham Racing (Score:3, Informative)

    by djohnsto ( 133220 ) <dan.e.johnston@gm[ ].com ['ail' in gap]> on Thursday February 02, 2006 @02:48PM (#14628330) Homepage
    Probably one of the first (and best) examples of comprehensive leaderboard support was Project Gotham Racing 2 for the Xbox. When connected to Xbox Live, every event you completed was uploaded to the leaderboard. I was extremely happy to crack the top 1000 on most boards. The top 10 entries on each board had their "ghost" uploaded so that you could view their record setting run and/or race against it. While there were some issues (they should have created leaderboards for each medal class), on the whole it was extremely well done and contributed greatly to the replayability of the game.

  • Gamer tastes have not changed, games have (Score:4, Interesting)

    by rAiNsT0rm ( 877553 ) on Thursday February 02, 2006 @02:54PM (#14628390) Homepage
    Gaming lately has been dancing around this issue lately and it is an area no one wants to tap into in the media. Gamers tastes have not really ever changed, games and game makers have forcefed things on us with varying levels of success but the core concept of fun has remained the same.

    Geometry wars I would say has sold as much or more than most launch titles for the 360. This "resurgence" in single player/leaderboard gaming. Simple, quick, easy to pick up and play games have always been the favorite, no matter the level of technology or the era. It always comes back to a simple idea, executed perfectly, and accessible to most any player.

    The forced transition to 3D and the denial of 2D games is another instance. Still to this day the "sleeper" hits are always some form of 2D gameplay, yet no game maker wants to admit this and produce 2D games.

    FPS and RTS games have been being pushed more and more BY THE GAME DEVELOPERS/PUBLISHERS, not by gamer demand. They are easy and cheap to produce and stick to a basic formula that has been beat to death many times over. Gamers demand new and exciting games, look at the interest in upcoming games like Spore... yet there is only 1 Spore to every 100 FPS/RTS games. The developers keep shoveling out GTA clones, FPS games, and RTS titles by the bucketful and the returns are finally diminishing. Just like MMO's the developer/publisher are the ones pushing them so hard because they are easy to produce and rake in tons of cash, but they are all still basically the same formula as EQ1 over and over with minor tweaks and changes. Sure, they sell tons.. but if you would have asked before WoW if gamers wanted yet another fantasy MMO, most would have said "NO!" But it gets hyped, and marketed, and people buy into it and no matter how many folks complain about long wait times and boredom after lvl 60 the subscription numbers keep climbing.

    People really want innovative, unique, games and the cult followings that otherwise unknown games garner (like Katamari Damacy, Guitar Hero, DDR, Odama, Ikaruga, etc.) prove that true game design, gameplay, and innovation still hold the highest regard in gamers minds. Game makers would (and do) have you believe otherwise, but the proof is there.
    • Mod parent up. Even this idea that a 2D game can't be a hit is just nonsense. Many gamers are screaming for another adventure game (e.g. Monkey Island, The Dig, A Final Unity, etc.) and 2D gameboy games still sell like there's no tomorrow.

      3D was and still is a very cool technology. But it isn't anywhere near the be all to end all of video gaming.
    • is nethack!

      All these years, and still the only game that matters.

      3d? 2d? Bah! The animation is done with ASCII, just as God meant things to be.

      Of course, it does have new-fangled developments, like navigation with the arrow pads for those not bright enough to use vi instead of emacs, and the iintroduction of color is still questionable . . .

      hawk
    • Paper Mario games were a start.... but think of it... Nintendo makes a side-scolling Mario game that encompasses the scope (i.e. levels and level variety) of Mario 1-Mario world. Make it somewhat open ended.

      You would crank it out in under a year. Keep the graphics simple, and incorporate some levels from the classic Mario games. People would eat it up. Sleeper classic. I'm still waiting for a real sequel to Mario World.

      • Nintendo makes a side-scolling Mario game that encompasses the scope (i.e. levels and level variety) of Mario 1-Mario world.

        Including the rat-bastard difficulty of Super Mario Bros. 2 (J), called Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels in other territories?

        • The Average American gamer still goesn't have the stoic patience and fighter-pilot reflexes to tackle that beast. I was thinking of the acid trip Doki-Doki Panic re-sprited Mario 2. It's all about the turnips.
    • FPSs are what "jump and run" games were in the NES, SNES era. Something that everybody understands and knows how to do well, and there were a lot of games in the genre that did well in the past, so, why don't we do another one?
    • What about the revenue stream generated by high-end 3d accelerated graphics cards? I would think that the large PC video card manufacturers have reasons to encourage game producers to release 3D titles.

      Even substantial 2D graphics can be handled by more modestly priced cards.
    • The forced transition to 3D and the denial of 2D games is another instance. Still to this day the "sleeper" hits are always some form of 2D gameplay, yet no game maker wants to admit this and produce 2D games.

      Katamari Damacy was not "some form of 2D gameplay".
      • I never said that *all* 3D is bad, just that most 3D games are a forced effort, like 3D platformers... that is about as unintuitive as possible. Katamari Damacy's 3D is very rudimentary and simplistic, and the control is also, that is different than a 3D world with moving/aiming/strafing/camera/weapon selection/alternate weapons/jumping/etc. all at once.

        Some games are really helped out by the extra dimension, some are just plain not. There are millions of examples, like Metal Slug, Street Fighter VS. .../Ca
  • Reposting of something I wrote in response to a similar article:

    Achievements and scores on the 360 are the real "next-gen" feature of the XBox 360.

    Forget the graphics and the other much-touted features of the 360 - achievements and high scores take that old-school high score competitiveness from yesterday's arcades and make them relevant once again.

    This is great for someone like me - a guy in his early 30's who doesn't have many gamer friends anymore and certainly none on XBL - because it brings t
    • I couldn't agree with you more. I am 27 years old and it seems that many of my friends are "growing out of gaming." When I picked up my 360 earlier in the week I simply played the arcade and went for achievements/highs scores. What a blast! I just wish there were some communities you can join to compete against instead of going up against the best in the world. Maybe even a city based group?
  • Speedrun [wikipedia.org], Major League Gaming [wikipedia.org], Electronic sports [wikipedia.org]
  • But imagining myself playing Resident Evil 4 with online leaderboards showing high scores in the missionary mode


    Poor Leon...
    • Yeah, Leon is the unluckiest Mormon ever.

      "Uh, excuse me, sir? I was wondering if you're interested in the book of Mormon, another testament of Jesus Christ."

      "Qué carajo estás haciendo aquí? Lárgate, cabrón!"

      "Sorry to bother you."

      (Villager then tries to attack Leon with an axe.)

      "Freeze! I said, Freeze!"

      (Leon takes out the villager and gets a message on his radio.)

      "Is everything okay?"

      "There was a hostile local. I had no choice but to neutralize him. There are still ot

  • "But imagining myself playing Resident Evil 4 with online leaderboards showing high scores in the missionary mode or a timed 'kill as many bad guys as you can' mini-game brings a smile to my face."

    For RE4, this sort of already exists...especially for the Japanese. The site http://homepage3.nifty.com/shin3/capcom/bio4.htm [nifty.com] tracks both the best times on the main game and high scores for the Mercenaries minigame, ranging from top 20ish to the top 64. I think he just includes the submissions for anyone that s

  • I can't wait till ALL platforms implement something similar to what MS has done with the gamerscore/gamercard system. I'm tired of telling folks and /.-ers that I'm a Japanese RPG fanatic. I'd love to point people to my gamercard and achievements. They can see that I've played most Square-Enix games, many Nippon Ichi titles, have beaten Prinny Baal in Disgaea, really close to beating DQVIII, etc. I'm not ashamed of my gaming heritage at all!

    I'm sure the same goes for many other gamers. They WANT people to k

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