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Games Entertainment

How Sega Can Save Sonic 97

Posted by Zonk from the life-support-for-hedgehogs dept.
You may recall the conversation we had at the end of last year, riffing off of a Retrogaming article on how Sega ruined Sonic. 1up has returned with a response, positing how the company can save their mascot from the death of ignominy. Their advice is simple: Go Fast, ditch Shadow, make fewer games. "Remember Blast Processing? It was a sham, sure, but the idea behind it was a perfect summation of what Sonic was about: A game so fast that the Genesis had to be specially programmed to keep up with it. Slowing down to drink in the ambiance or whatever is pretty much the exact opposite of Blast Processing. Being forced to, say, go fishing in a Sonic game is like buying a Ferrari so you can take naps in the backseat."
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How Sega Can Save Sonic More

How Sega Can Save Sonic

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  • Save Sonic? (Score:3, Informative)

    by MidVicious ( 1045984 ) on Tuesday February 13, 2007 @12:29PM (#17999368)

    Here's an idea...

    No more God damn Furry scenes [youtube.com].

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Artaxs ( 1002024 )
      From TFA:

      God, don't ever make us see cute human girls making out with Sonic. Ever again.
      Seriously, we'll hurt you.
      I'll second that, as well as most of the article's points. What the hell is up with Shadow? I mean, Sonic was *already* the edgy, sneering, anti-hero-type. Was Shadow supposed to be 'keeping it more real' because he had black fur?!?

    • Re:Save Sonic? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by bersl2 ( 689221 ) on Tuesday February 13, 2007 @02:31PM (#18001404) Journal
      I was going to mod you down, but I think I'll speak some instead.

      The moment that Sega decided to give Sonic, et al. an actual identity, as opposed to the bland and generic Mario and crew (and let's not kid ourselves here, character details matter very little in his sphere---Nintendo focuses much more on gameplay, and justifiably so), Sega opened an inverse Pandora's box: there is all this room for derivative works outside of video games (which has been done, both commercially and fan-based), but this has alienated non-fans (the association with the furry fandom could be incidental and not causal). And, of course, the games have continued to decline in quality, which is fatal no matter what.

      Sega has no clear objective for Sonic. He maintains his original product differentiation from Mario as described above, but otherwise, he's still a me-too, devoid of boldness and originality in both gameplay and storyline.

      To actually address what I think you're referring to: yeah, I hate the humans too. If they're going to keep inventing characters to the point where they actually make Sonic non-asexual, nobody wanted to see him kiss some dainty-ass innocent human girl.

      Crap, I need to cut off my rant now. I'll be resuming it later. ;)
      • I agree. Sonic doesn't need any more personality than he has already. I preferred Sonic when he was relatively silent, with a basic story that wasn't too plot-heavy. This allowed the game's attributes to shine through. When Sega conceived Sonic they had too goals: make him cool, and make him fast.

        Sonic's cool because he was quiet and indifferent. He didn't need huge quantities of dialog to embellish his character, and he didn't need a complex plot to make the game fun. Sonic has always been about showing of

  • Well they could start by (Score:3)

    by Duds ( 100634 ) * <dudley&enterspace,org> on Tuesday February 13, 2007 @12:34PM (#17999434) Homepage Journal
    Making the games "not shit".

    Or at least fixing the SAME dodgy camera system that's afflicted every game since Sonic Adv 1.
  • More Sonic, less everyone else and better camera controls are what I would suggest ...

  • The backseats of Ferraris... (Score:3, Funny)

    by Mondoz ( 672060 ) on Tuesday February 13, 2007 @12:41PM (#17999566)
    "Being forced to, say, go fishing in a Sonic game is like buying a Ferrari so you can take naps in the backseat."

    I submit that there are some activities which would be that much better because they were performed in the backseat of a Ferrari...

  • Clarifying a few points (Score:5, Insightful)

    by AKAImBatman ( 238306 ) * <akaimbatman@gmaiBLUEl.com minus berry> on Tuesday February 13, 2007 @12:42PM (#17999568) Homepage Journal

    Sonic Adventure ushered in re-branded "Dr. Eggman" [...] once Sonic went into 3D, Sega felt that Sonic was better suited on Earth

    Just to clarify, the move toward Dr. Eggman vs. Robotnik and Earth vs. Mobius was a move toward how the Sonic story was told in its original Japanese. The elements we Americans are used to were localization and translation issues. That being said, I think we Americans liked the way Sonic was localized. Trying to cram a version better suited to Japanese culture down our throats is silly, especially since the early Sonic games supposedly sold better in the U.S. than they did in Japan.

    IMHO, the Sonic Team should have used the SatAM show [wikipedia.org] as its source material rather than coming up with the screwy Sonic X series. The result would have been far more appealing to the majority of American fans.

    Last but not least, Sega should really consider reworking the Sonic XTreme concept. There's a lot of demand for that game out there. Enough to suggest that the direction it was going is actually where fans want to go. Yes, it was basically a straight-up translation of 2D Sonic into 3D Sonic. But what's wrong with that?

    In case anyone is wondering why the article calls "Blast Processing" a sham, it's because more processing power is not necessary for Sonic's "speed". Speed is an illusion. As long as the frame rate is high enough to prevent choppiness (consoles are limited to the TV's 60 FPS anyway), you can move the playfield and characters as much or as little as you want per frame. This gives the illusion of speed. In cases where the actual speed exceeds the sampling rate of the television, motion blur tricks can be used to fool the eye further. For example, Sonic's legs weren't really a blur. The sprite was already blurred, then played back at a far lower framerate.

    • Re:Clarifying a few points (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Cowclops ( 630818 ) on Tuesday February 13, 2007 @01:12PM (#18000112)
      I don't even recall where I read it, but I read a fairly technical explanation as to what "blast processing" boiled down to. It was actually the ability to load background images into memory quickly enough that you can run across many background screens worth of data without it having to wait up for the next screen to load. Moving an individual sprite around a static screen means moving him a larger distance in 1/60th of a second, and both SNES and Genesis can do this with no problem. The issue is, the SNES takes a longer time to load a whole background's worth of data, which is required for the illusion of a character running quickly. After all, in the sonic games when you are moving quickly, the sprite is actually not moving at all relative to the screen but the backgrounds are flying by rapidly, which is the hard part. While I wouldn't go as far as to say SNES couldn't run a Sonic game, I think certain effects would have been impossible. Remember when you were invincible AND had the speed shoes AND were running through tunnels at the same time, how fast the screen could move? I don't think SNES could have done that at full speed, even if the rest of the game was quite possible. Uniracers on SNES moves "quickly" but also has repetetive backgrounds and just a single track in the foreground. Maybe, on Genesis, uniracers could have supported more detailed backgrounds. In short, blast processing wasn't a sham and there IS a limit to how quickly you can load up concurrent background images, but SNES could still deal with "fast" games. The extent to which its limited, I do not know, but the fact remains that there was a limit to how fast SNES could display concurrent background images.
      • Thank you for reminding me of a game I loved for some odd reason. Uniracers. Now I gotta dig out my SNES. (Mebbe it'll end up on Virtual Console?)
      • Blast processing was just marketting. The double frame buffering technique is news to me. I think this might be retro active rationalization. Since this double buffering would not "speed" up anythign and woudl lead to a bit of a control lag. I am aware that the CPU could nto access the frame buffer directlly and has to use the VDP. But this dbl frame buffer situation would not lead to improved speeds of bg scroll.

        The key differences between the SNES and Genesis was that the SNES has custom graphics chip wh
        • Comment removed based on user account deletion
          • Yeah, because programmers discuss technical details with the marketing department all the time - especially on a game developed by SOJ and marketed in the U.S. by SOA. Right...

            "I'm sure it's rooted into some fancy programming through."
            I'm sure no one from marketing had any idea if Sonic used any different technology than any other game. So now we're both sure - but I'm right.
          • It's not that fancy. They turned off frame collision (or set it to only check every 7 frames) and the fact their main cpu was faster allowed to display and scroll their muddy 512 color BG faster. It's not a "trick" or even very clever. As it was really only used well in sonic and maybe ecco. all their other games were just muddy low detail platformers.
      • You are totally wrong and scrolling games do not work like that at all. Fast scrolling is achieved even on the ZX Spectrum by moving the screen more than one pixel at a time. I won't go into details because there is plenty of stuff around (tutorials etc) and how the Megadrive hardware works.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Ant P. ( 974313 )
      I agree with you there. The US/UK got all this amazing content (SatAM, the comics, even the _advertising_ was something special). Stuff like that was why they more or less owned the UK market until they panicked themselves to death over the PS1. Did the Japanese version even _have_ a backstory?

  • 2D (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Conception ( 212279 ) on Tuesday February 13, 2007 @12:42PM (#17999580)
    Nintendo did it. Konomi did it. Just make a really great platformer. Make it for the DS. Make it for 360 Live. The wii, whatever. Just make it fun.

  • Background Music (Score:3, Interesting)

    by y5 ( 993724 ) * on Tuesday February 13, 2007 @12:44PM (#17999622)

    The final straw for me was when they introduced the god-awful fake pop music, complete with vocals and lyrics about Sonic. Something about it just really makes me cringe.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by aikouka ( 932902 )
      Have you ever heard the old Sonic Boom CD? ;) I think I still have an original copy lying around somewhere, but that CD was more techno-ish than anything and did have a vocal track or two (namely the song "Sonic Boom").

      I can see where you'd be annoyed by the pop songs. I can still remember the old Sonic boss themes in my head to this day and I haven't played Sonic in ages. That's a testament to how well a game engrossed you into it.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Perseid ( 660451 )
      Actually, I liked the character songs from Sonic Adventure. But then again I seem to have hated that game far less than everyone else.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by SamSim ( 630795 )

      The final straw for me was when they introduced the god-awful fake pop music, complete with vocals and lyrics about Sonic.

      What, you mean Sonic CD [wikipedia.org]? The final straw was the third game in the series?

  • 3D just never quite worked (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Tarlus ( 1000874 ) on Tuesday February 13, 2007 @12:46PM (#17999648)
    They need to spend more time developing each 3D game. The first Sonic Adventure game for Dreamcast was decent, but everything since has been just 'meh'. Because there are always tight deadlines for each game, Sega ends up producing a mediocre game with bugs, sloppy controls, unimaginative level design, and God-awful voice acting. They shouldn't have ever given them voices.

    But, because Sega continues to pump out one game after another, and because they try to meet deadlines, we end up with crap like this [youtube.com].

    A name as big as Sonic can afford to suffer one or two release setbacks for the sake of having more time to test and refine a game into something higher-quality, even on-par with the likes of Mario.

    Or they could just hand Sonic over to Miyamoto...
    • Wow. Just, wow. That video sure gives some insight on just how concered Sega is with releasing a good product. I mean, how in the world can anyone release something that bad?!? I think I'd want to crawl in a hole and die if I released a prodcut that bad.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Abreu ( 173023 )
        Zug Zug!

        -- sorry, I make a point about never replying to .sigs, but I had to make an exception

  • Afraid of 2D Games (Score:4, Interesting)

    by matt74441 ( 1000572 ) on Tuesday February 13, 2007 @12:49PM (#17999700)
    Unfortunately in this day and age, 2D games don't really come out for major consoles anymore. People seem to expect every game that is released to have beautiful 3D graphics and huge environments to play in. This isn't a problem if you're starting a new franchise, but if you're taking a game that has always been 2D on older consoles, then its a hit or miss in my opinion. Super Mario and Metroid have done this successfully, but Sonic has completely failed at this. Like its said in the article, Sonic is too slow in 3D and that makes it almost painful to play for me. If Sega released a new 2D Sonic game, I'd buy it without hesitating.
    • I think that game makers think that every game has to be beautiful 3D, but that the customers don't really care. They just want a game that's fun to play. Games like Paper Mario, Viewtiful Joe, and Animal Crossing (not 2D, but graphics don't matter) are very popular. I don't think that the gamers care as much as the Execs that approve which games get made believe they care.

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by Yaotzin ( 827566 )
        IMHO, Paper Mario has nice graphics and Animal Crossing does not. Sadly enough, I haven't played Viewtiful Joe yet.

        --"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."
        • I think the graphics in Paper Mario are great. Viewtiful Joe also has pretty good graphics. Animal crossing isn't even 3D, unless you consider Zelda 1 or Zelda 3, to also be 3D. However, there's a lot of game companies that wouldn't produce a game like that simply because it's not 3D. There's a lot of companies that would rather put out some crappy 3D game, than put out some really good 2D game that only costs a quarter as much to make.

        • IMHO, Paper Mario has nice graphics and Animal Crossing does not.
          Animal Crossing Population Growing has N64-level models and textures because it is actually a straight port of a Japanese N64 game, Dôbutsu no Mori (Animal Forest), to the GameCube hardware. But, as on Katamari Damacy, does the stylized look get in the way of what Mr. Nook is trying to sell you?

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by LKM ( 227954 )
        There's also the problem that Sony often didn't license 2D games for the US market. Interestingly, there are already quite a few 2D games on the Wii...

        • Re: (Score:1)

          by tepples ( 727027 )

          There's also the problem that Sony often didn't license 2D games for the US market.

          If it's a graphics issue, then why not take the same approach as Wild 9 (PS1), Kirby 64 (N64), Smash Bros. (N64/GCN), and Viewtiful Joe (GCN/PS2) of using 3D models with 2D physics? Games that use 2D physics can use less detailed, more stylized models and textures that take less effort to produce, as the models are generally drawn a bit farther from the camera than in a behind-the-character 3D game.

          • Re: (Score:1)

            by KDR_11k ( 778916 )
            It's more expensive to do (3d means a lot more code and more complicated level data) and you can't send your pixel artists to work on it. Many teams that still make 2d games are used to pixel art and would need a restructuring to output 3d art.

            Also Sony didn't reject 2d games in Japan or Europe and many 2d-only games were also Japan-only.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Perseid ( 660451 )
        I own all 3 of those games, so I agree with you. Thing is I don't know anyone else who owns even one of those games, so I also disagree with you.
    • I would love for a regular 2D version to come out to play. I played the demo of Sonic the Hedgehog for the 360 and it more than annoyed me. Every time I see a title become available I go to demo it and I feel let down it sucks so bad and it's just not 2D. I don't know that a game that has this jumping and running can be 3D. Playing the demo I kept falling off a cliff so much that I finally gave up and said, "Well I'm not buying this shit". I'll keep my fingers crossed that somebody decides that it should b

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by KDR_11k ( 778916 )
        Get a DS, get Sonic Rush. While it has a few weak stages it's a pretty good game overall.

    • Unfortunately in this day and age, 2D games don't really come out for major consoles anymore.

      Speak for yourself. I'm waiting for Super Paper Mario [wikipedia.org] to come out. And if I had a Nintendo DS, I'd be all over the New Super Mario Bros. [wikipedia.org]

      Granted, modern consoles allow for more complex effects in 2D (all you're really doing is ignoring the Z axis), but that doesn't make the gameplay any less 2D. :)

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by KDR_11k ( 778916 )
      I think Sonic would work better in 3d than 2d if done well. In 3d you can have an almost unlimited viewing distance, in 2d you only see up to the edge of the screen and with Sonic you'll be there faster than you can react. Sonic's speed was mostly in on-rails sequences in the 2d games where elements were arranged to move you along a path without user interaction, in other places high speed would only net you a quick death because you couldn't react to obstacles fast enough or there were simply timed obstacl
  • Since the let down of the 3D Sonic games, I'm quite anxious to play Secret of the Rings (Wildfire was a better name, but that's usually how it goes). Last I heard, it's due out on the 20th of this month (though Circuit City's pre-order things say March). Supposedly, the game will have you playing as just Sonic, not 13 other characters, and is all about going forward and jumping. The previews I've seen have the level being a bit too linear, but the speed was fairly high. The camera is fixed behind Sonic, a n
  • Sonic isn't about the gamers any more. Go look at Deviantart or any major furry site and you'll see the type of people who buy Sonic games. They don't care about the game play, they just want more "story" (aka new characters to poorly draw having sex).

    The best Sonic game in ages has been Rush and that still didn't play very well, if not for the music it wouldn't have been half as good as it was.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by bersl2 ( 689221 )
      lol, conspiracy theory. :)

      If Sega did sell out to us, then they do a piss-poor job of representing what we* want, namely:
      • better and more sophisticated ("sophisticated" not necessarily meaning "complex" nor "mature") plotlines (Sega wouldn't know a good story if it bit them on the ass)
      • better dialog, though it might be a translation problem
      • development of existing characters (quality, not quantity)
      • English voice acting that does justice to the franchise, like the Japanese voice acting.
      • Did I mention that we

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by bky1701 ( 979071 )
      As a furry.. I can safely say that they have not been sold out to. ANOTHER hedgehog? A stupid FF + BTTF rip-off story? Strange GFX (something is comically wrong with a large, fur-less, talking hedgehog walking around in an otherwise realistic environment)? Sucky gameplay (I haven't played the new game, but from what I hear it sucks)?

      Nah. They haven't sold out to us. If they did, they did it very, VERY poorly. If you think any game sold out to furries, that would be Starfox, but you can't blame SFA's awfu

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by bersl2 ( 689221 )

        If you think any game sold out to furries, that would be Starfox
        Such... beautiful... fur texturing...

        [shiver of pleasure]

  • Maybe it's timeto let him pass on. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by hal2814 ( 725639 ) on Tuesday February 13, 2007 @01:17PM (#18000206)
    Pull the plug already. Let him die in peace and hopefully he'll be remembered in his Genesis glory days instead of in his 3D form that never did quite work out. Not every franchise can or should last forever.

  • 3D is the problem (Score:4, Insightful)

    by tgibbs ( 83782 ) on Tuesday February 13, 2007 @01:22PM (#18000262)
    3D is the heart of the problem. In full 3D, there is just too much freedom of movement to manage the speed required for a Sonic game. I can't understand why Sega doesn't release a "3D on a 2D track" Sonic game, along the lines of Nights.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by bersl2 ( 689221 )

      In full 3D, there is just too much freedom of movement to manage the speed required for a Sonic game.

      Maybe if they stopped making the levels so linear and more planar. Falling into a void to one's death is so passé. If I'm in a forest, make it a big forest with a few roads, leading to the objective, but put all the goodies deep in there; if I'm in a city, let me run around the whole damn thing. Maybe have a few static parts to a level, but generate most of it as needed.

      I also think the controls can use some creativity. Make the forward/side control more throttle-like/rudder-like using an analog stick

      • and hows about pitching the whole "levels" thing have say 12 areas but allow free roaming (the nastier areas you would need to have bits from lower levels

        1 the Chaos Emeralds Hide the portals in some odd (but guessable) place in the nine easiest areas and have some sort of fun puzzle thing to grab the emerald
        2 each emerald either is an upgrade or powers an upgrade (in the second case you would need to find the upgrade first)
        3 give Sonic the ability to throw rings at enemies (or hazards or)
        4 hitpoints: it
    • Isn't that basically what they're doing with the new Sonic game on the Wii? I haven't been following it too closely, but it sounds like what you're asking for, if memory serves me right.
  • Sonic 3 & Knuckles was the pinnacle of what Sonic could be, IMO. It had the best music (thanks possibly to Michael Jackson...look it up on Wikipedia!) the best levels, and a great variety in gameplay. Frankly, They just need to make a psuedo-3D sonic game with some RPG-ish elements. The paths between various locations in the world would be a bunch of branching pathways made in the old 2D style way of level making. Just make Sonic 4 for god's sake, and undo the last 10 years of furry shit.
  • Maybe I'm just not a big Sonic fan as I've always been a Nintendo guy, but doesn't this show that Sonic just can't really be kept "cool" forever? The fact that Sonic can only be in one type of game, and has to go back to it's roots of fast action sidescroller shows that it's a limited mascot, whereas Mario can (and is) put to any number and genre of games from sports, to racing, to puzzle to 3d platformer and still maintain the integrity of the mascot as well as have a fun game (Not even mentioning the spin

  • I think they should go back to the cell shaded look and focus more on the games. I think that modern consoles can still sell sidescrolling games - and the fewer gameplay gimmics the better

    Then there is the story aspect - and having seen a few of the x360 cutscenes - anyone who hasn't watched a fair bit of anime are probably gona block them out; anyone who has, still questions the nessicity of the smooching between sonic and a realisticly rendered woman.

    So basically: KISS, Dont bother trying to make a co

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by LKM ( 227954 )

      So basically: KISS

      No! Please, don't kiss! Especially not human girls! :-)

  • ...get SegaSoft Rocket Jockey out again!
  • Dude. This is totally gonna reinvent Sonic Team. Get this, now: Big the Cat's Big Adventures
  • Let him go into wii's super smash bro's brawl! That might help royalties, but probably not save him entirely.
  • The beginning of the problem was in the transition from 2D to 3D. Some franchises weathered this well, Sonic did not.

    Certainly, Sonic Adventure was a good game, but very quickly it and its successors revealed that SEGA had forgotten what made the 2D games so great.

    All the previous Sonic games were great because 90% of the time you were running like crazy, screaming across the screen and trying to keep up with everything that was being thrown at you. Often, you wouldn't and a shower of rings would signal you

  • Here is X-Play's [wikipedia.org] feature on how to save the series:
    http://www.g4tv.com/pile_player.aspx?video_key=122 68M [g4tv.com]

    From a reviewer's perspective, the 3D Sonic titles are brought down primarily by technical problems and secondly by a lack of focus on what makes the Sonic series unique. Once you resolve that, I believe the series can be further enhanced by track-relative controls (as opposed to camera-relative) and the introduction of quick time events [wikipedia.org] for complex maneuvers.

  • ...very annoying. I was reading through the article(s) and at some point stumbled across a link to the official site of the sonic advanced series.
    This redirected me http://www.nintendogamecube.com/old_browser.vm [nintendogamecube.com].

    I am a Debian user, and with that an Iceweasel-user.

    So whats all this crap about hedgehogs, when my weasel don't run them...

    Shame on Nintendo!!!
  • They can also contribute by not threatening to shut YTMND down because of all the Sonic-based submissions. YTMND is one of the main reasons Sonic is still alive right now. Link [ytmnd.com]

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by bersl2 ( 689221 )
      Whoa there, buddy. You do know that it's been almost a month since the deadline and no legal action has been filed?

      When I first saw the C&D, I knew it wasn't sent out of malice, and I thought it was just business: if trademarks (like the name and image of Sonic) are not defended once in a while, they run the risk of being declared diluted and thus invalid, so I thought that this was Sega taking care of its responsibility to its bottom line to defend its... "intellectual property" (bleh, I feel sick now
  • Maybe sega should just drop Sonic all together? Most Project Plans have a 'Do Nothing' option when the Business Case doesn't fit the solutions available.

    They have 2 other famous (and slower) Icons to fall back onto if they wanted to release a game; Namely Alex Kidd and Wonderboy. Both have HEAPS of potential for the creation of a 3d world adventure game similar in style to perhaps the new Zelda game on the Wii or something more innovative.
  • The key to saving Sonic: make a game that doesn't suck. The end.
  • The problem with the recent Sonic offerings is that Sega is no longer Sega any more. Sega died in 2003/2004. After discontinuing the Dreamcast, they were brought out by Sammy. Sammy changed their focus from making interesting new games, and switched Sega entirely into focusing on turning a profit above all else, along with a reduced focus on 'home software'. Sega are forced to produce Sonic games as cheaply as possible, because despite them being awful, they still sell. Unfortunately the change of focus has
  • Although I generally agree with you that Sonic didn't do the transition to 3D very well, there were some parts of the 3D games I really enjoyed. In Sonic Adventure I very much disliked the adventure part, but some of the levels were fun. Especially when the speed was like in the original Sonic games. There was one part of a level, I don't remember the name right now, but there was this track in the sky of which you almost couldn't fall off and the camera made crazy moves around it to make it more exciting.
  • Sonic in 2D is coming to Live Arcade so all is not lost.

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