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Games Entertainment

Valve Hoping For 360/PC Play, Scared of PS3 Online 105

Posted by Zonk from the weird-thing-to-be-scare-of dept.
Valve's movement to the console space has been slow, but this year will see the release of Half-Life 2 on both the 360 and PS3. They seem to be having mixed reactions to that move. On the one hand (according to CVG), they're very much hoping that 360/PC crossplay will be possible for their upcoming Team Fortress 2. On the other hand (according to Game Informer and 1up), their reaction to the PS3's online component is one of fear. Valve's Marketing representative Doug Lombardi: "PS3 is brand new and PS3's online is kind of scary so we're hoping that EA is going to be a strong partner for us. (laughs) It's always the scariest thing when it's not all yours. With the PC it's all ours, Steam is all ours, code's ours, game's ours. On 360 we're making it, we've made it before, we know what the Live thing is, although it's Microsoft's so we kind of know it. PS3 we're not building it, we haven't made a PS3 title before, and we don't really know what PS3 online really is. It's always the devil you don't know that you're the most scared of."
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Valve Hoping For 360/PC Play, Scared of PS3 Online More

Valve Hoping For 360/PC Play, Scared of PS3 Online

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  • The devil you do know (Score:1, Flamebait)

    by jhfry ( 829244 )

    It's always the devil you don't know that you're the most scared of."
    I'd say sometimes it's the devil you DO know that you should be most scared of.

    I have to say, that when I don't know someone/something, I am typically very open minded and positive. Whereas, approaching an entity I know I can't trust (like MS) I am always very nervous.

    • Re:The devil you do know (Score:5, Insightful)

      by drinkypoo ( 153816 ) <drink@hyperlogos.org> on Thursday March 29, 2007 @03:42PM (#18534341) Homepage Journal

      I have to say, that when I don't know someone/something, I am typically very open minded and positive. Whereas, approaching an entity I know I can't trust (like MS) I am always very nervous.

      So what you're saying is that it's doubly reasonable for them to be terrified of Sony? It's both the devil they know AND the devil they don't.

    • Re:The devil you do know (Score:4, Insightful)

      by NekoXP ( 67564 ) on Thursday March 29, 2007 @03:51PM (#18534525) Homepage
      Considering a lot of the guys at Valve used to work for Microsoft, I don't think anyone there has any reason to be scared, nor have a lack of trust; they know what it's like from the inside and have their internal contacts. None of them were fired or ousted, but were valued employees that went to do other things - I am sure Microsoft misses them (especially considering the success they've had, wouldn't MS be riding a high right now if Half-Life and Steam had been their product? :)
      • A very good point. What if MS decided to partner with Valve to provide a Steam like service integrated into Xbox Live? Kind of like the Phantom Game Service except it could actually happen.

        Swi

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by nuzak ( 959558 )
          > What if MS decided to partner with Valve

          Partner, nothing. I think there's a very good chance they might buy Valve.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by NekoXP ( 67564 )
            I doubt Newell would let it happen.

            And integrating Steam into XBox Live is a bit late.. Steam should have BEEN XBox Live. PopCap Puzzle Pirates FTW.
    • MS Tendancy: Will pretend to partner with you, steal your business models and contacts, cut you out, and grind your company into dust. "embrace, extend and extinguish"

      Sony: Partner with you, promote your collaboration, sometimes provide innadaquete documentation at first, attempt to replace your collaboration with a propriatary project a few years later. Fail miserably to compete with your old collaboration.

      From history it seems safer to partner with Sony. although they try to screw you later they tend to d
      • Actually, I can't see that to be the case. Cytrix partnered with Microsoft and they are thriving. When they made the deal with Microsoft, their sales boomed. And they keep growing despite MS adding more features to their version of the solution. I went to a Microsoft conference a few weeks ago and they were promoting Cytrix solutions as a great extension of the basic capabilities in Windows. The same happened with many other partners. Actually, many often asked for features such as backup to tape, cluster s

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by jhfry ( 829244 )
          Funny how you say Cytrix is thriving despite Microsoft's continuous theft (for lack of a better word) of their best ideas. Cytrix isn't still around because Microsoft is honoring anything, they are around because Microsoft knows that as soon as they make Cytrix obsolete they will face some difficult patent infringement and possibly antitrust law suits.

          Novell is a good example where a one time partner was nearly bankrupt by Microsoft. MS dropped support for the DEC Alpha after a lot of brotherly hype if I
          • What an odd recall of history you have. Novell never partnered with Microsoft (until last month). They were enemies from day one. I know, I used to work for a Novell distributor at the time, and Microsoft was no friend from the start. It was a competitor, and a strong one that almost got us ruined, but that wasn't because any partnering issues (actually it might have been, them having more and stronger partners than Novell made it a difficult fight). Microsoft stopped supporting Alpha after three years of a

    • Re: (Score:1, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Talking with the guy who wrote most of the networking code for Resistance:Fall of Man, he made it sound like Sony's approach to networking is the WORST of both worlds. You have to do everything yourself because Sony basically just gives you a device driver. Friends Lists, invites, chat handling, etc. are all up to the developer. There are no libraries or even standards for these. But, unlike the PC, you have to log every game connect with a Sony server so you still have big brother collecting data about

  • xbox vs. PC (Score:2, Interesting)

    by MrLeap ( 1014911 )
    This reminds me of playing quake3 on the dreamcast, and getting trounced by all the folks who played on PC. Are they going to give the console folks auto aim? Or a 40 dollar keyboard and mouse adapter to buy? I hope not, for I'll be playing on a PC, and i'd really enjoy a mouse/keyboard skill buffer to take advantage of.
    • I'm assuming you can just make use of the Xbox 360's 4USB ports.
      • Comment removed based on user account deletion
        • Well, I know my USB keyboard works just fine on the 360 for composing messages and such. And even if it's not allowed for games right now they can always make exceptions. Used to be you couldn't go ever 50MB for Xbox Live, and due to Castlevania: SOTN they bumped it to 256mb. And considering that MS has already said there would be cross platform play between the 360 and PC versions of Shadowrun and valve wanting to do the same for HL2, they'll have to do something to level the playing field and that would b

    • Re:xbox vs. PC (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Kelbear ( 870538 ) on Thursday March 29, 2007 @04:16PM (#18535075)
      No you cannot have kbm/mouse. Microsoft has made statements that they will not support kbm/mouse(it's trivial for them to allow them to be connected, it's just their interface license that keeps them from working natively). You can google for this.

      The implementation varies from game to game. In the case of the first FPS crossplatform multiplayer game Shadowrun, they are giving console player auto-aim, while implementing cursor-speed penalties to handicap mouse twitch speeds so that there will be less value in fast and precision aiming and more emphasis on other factors.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by vux984 ( 928602 )
        The implementation varies from game to game. In the case of the first FPS crossplatform multiplayer game Shadowrun, they are giving console player auto-aim, while implementing cursor-speed penalties to handicap mouse twitch speeds so that there will be less value in fast and precision aiming and more emphasis on other factors.

        Let me be the first to say that's not even a game I'd want to play on the PC.

        I mean I agree that the playing field *should* be level but frankly I'd rather just not have xbox360 player

        • I mean I agree that the playing field *should* be level but frankly I'd rather just not have xbox360 players connected to my PC game than put up with that kind of crap!
          Concur. If PC players have to put up with the screaming console hordes in an FPS, the least we should be able to do is annihilate them with our 1337 twitch skills. :)

        • I mean I agree that the playing field *should* be level but frankly I'd rather just not have xbox360 players connected to my PC game than put up with that kind of crap!

          I wonder if that's why Microsoft decided to not allow "coed" PC + 360 matches for Halo 2....
      • I've been considering a 360 as an alternative to the PC for gaming, and figured that mouse & keyboard support for games would have finally (logically) been implemented, particularly in regard to the volume of games that desperately need it. Unless some company from Hong Kong comes out with a product allowing m/kb use, as they have in the past for other consoles, that glaring lack of foresight is a deal breaker for me.
    • Just get a PS3, did I mention it supports USB and Bluetooth keyboards a mice....
    • This has long been my problem with console shooters. The lack of precision of the thumbsticks. They did however make a Keyboard and Mouse that plugged directly into the Dreamcast, though I'm unsure if it works with Quake3.

      The problem really is they need to design a more intuitive / effective controller mechanism, one that works as well as the keyboard + mouse combo in shooters. FPS with a lightgun type device and a 1 handed directional controller in the offhand would be really cool, maybe the Wii will deliv

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Saffaya ( 702234 )
      >This reminds me of playing quake3 on the dreamcast, and getting trounced by all the folks who played on PC

      You were too cheap to buy the DreamCast keyboard and mouse ?

  • So basically (Score:4, Interesting)

    by earnest murderer ( 888716 ) on Thursday March 29, 2007 @03:42PM (#18534345)
    It's early in the process and they don't yet know what to think about it. But that's not going to stop 1up from passing that along in the most inflammatory way possible.

    And people wonder why so many businesses hide behind their PR department.
    • To be fair, its really not early in the process with regards to TF2...that game has been delayed repeatedly.
  • I'm just wondering either Microsoft or Sony would have some sort of verbiage in the development contract they sign with companies to prevent cross-platform gaming. As much as I'd love to see a game be multiplayer-enabled across PS3, 360, PC, Mac, etc. I have a feeling neither MS nor Sony would allow it.
    • You might want to check out Final Fantasy 11, playable (on the same servers) on the PC, Xbox 360, and PS2.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by ADRA ( 37398 )
      Valve has always been 'pro-MS'. Since they're based in greater-Seattle area, is it really that surprising?

      What was a real kick in the ass was them completely dumping OGL from their now current-generation games making them unable to play on anything non-Microsoft.

      Now that they are in the UniPlaf world of windows, the incentive to support -any- other platform is probably a heavy one. I can't speak about their architecture in particular, but unless a system is written from the ground up as modular, its difficu
      • Have they ever really been multiplatform, though? Yeah, Half Life 1 ran on OpenGL, but that was probably because the engine they bought from id ran on it. And from what I remember, Half Life 1 never got a Mac or Linux port.

        They've probably done some studies and decided that the Mac FPS market is not for them at this moment. That pretty much belongs to UT2K4 and Halo.
  • The question as to which is the superior gaming input device will finally be answered.

    • Re:Keyboard/Mouse vs. Controller (Score:4, Insightful)

      by the dark hero ( 971268 ) <adriatic_hero@@@hotmail...com> on Thursday March 29, 2007 @03:53PM (#18534565) Homepage

      The question as to which is the superior gaming input device will finally be answered.
      When it comes to FPS games there never was a single doubt which one was the best. The Keyboard/Mouse combo will always win out in FPS games over a controller.

      • When it comes to FPS games there never was a single doubt which one was the best. The Keyboard/Mouse combo will always win out in FPS games over a controller.
        I agree with you, but there are definitely people who argue that the controller is superior to the keyboard/mouse combo for FPS playing. Strange but true...

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Pojut ( 1027544 )

          I agree with you, but there are definitely people who argue that the controller is superior to the keyboard/mouse combo for FPS playing. Strange but true...


          And you will find that a vast majority of those people started playing FPS's on a console as opposed to on a PC (or just don't use a PC for gaming period)

          • Re: (Score:1)

            by greed ( 112493 )
            So maybe they'll let me use a keyboard and mouse on the console? I've got one plugged in already. Actually, it's a Model M with built-in trackball and a USB-PS2 (IBM PS2, not Sony PS2) adapter. I'd want a real mouse for games, but it works nicely with the webby thing and for entering names and stuff.
      • So... The FPS-heads will just connect a keyboard and a mouse to their consoles.
        If the developers aren't idiots and design their games as if the consoles had no usb-ports that is.
      • Furthering those lines: how many FPS games on consoles have "aim assist?" How many on PC?

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by Sibko ( 1036168 )
        Err... No one's actually made a game yet that pits a controller vs a keyboard/mouse. [Shadowrun will be out soon, though.] So how exactly do you know a keyboard/mouse will always win over a controller? That doesn't sound so much like logical reasoning to me as it does faith and an unwillingness to accept change.

        • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

          by Mprx ( 82435 )
          Dreamcast Quake 3 vs PC Quake 3. Keyboard+mouse won so hard it wasn't even funny.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Simon80 ( 874052 )
          You sound like you've never developed to a competitive skill level with any FPS games using a mouse and keyboard. You don't need to put one against the other directly to see that it's impossible to achieve the same aiming ability with a gamepad using the current control schemes games use with them.
          • Haven't there been a lot of controllers designed specifically for FPS games? I remember that at least one or two of them were reviewed as being at least as good as the mouse+keyboard combo, though they took a while to get used to.

        • Re: (Score:1)

          by adona1 ( 1078711 )
          Well, I played James Bond Nightfire on PS2, then on PC...the PC version was much easier to play, and the sniping etc was much more precise. I guess it was just a shame that the PC port really sucked :)
        • Actually there have been at least four such games for consoles, and yes they most definitely removed any doubt some may have had about this issue quite a long time ago. Unreal Tournament, Dreamcast, 2001 Outtrigger, Dreamcast, 2001 Quake III Arena, Dreamcast, 2000 Half-Life, Playstation 2, 2001 (no online option, but 2-player splitscreen deathmatch) From what I've seen, the lack of logical reasoning or unwillingness to accept change has been a trait found in those who enter PC FPS gaming and insist on us
        • Well, not exactly. You don't need a console to use a gamepad. I have one for my pc, it's a Logitech one that looks exactly like the PS2 one.

          What I did was this:
          In one pc: mouse + keyboard. Me.
          In the other pc: logitech gamepad. An 'expert' Halo player.

          I have to say, the Halo player is a damn good bastard. I expected total ownage and I still won half the time, but it was not what I expected. He could beat me more times than I was ready to accept. It also helps that the logitech gamepad is very good, b

      • Re: (Score:1, Insightful)

        by toejam316 ( 1000986 )
        Its true. Go buy a Xbox control, then re-wire it to USB and get the XBCD Controller Drivers and try play Halo or now Halo 2 online. See how much you "own". I know this firsthand ;-)
    • No this will answer which control device is the most effective, I guess better at its job. But perhaps not more fun and gamming is meant to be fun. Take paint ball game I like playing when everyone has pump action weapons, as there is a short interval between shots when you can make a dash or get off a shot when pinned down. However it is obvious that a semi-automatic weapon is a much more effective. Therefore I like the worse weapon more making it better in IMHO. This doesn't seem to make much sense once

  • Console/PC mix (Score:4, Interesting)

    by RichPowers ( 998637 ) on Thursday March 29, 2007 @03:50PM (#18534515)
    Obligatory: How can Valve make it fair for someone with an Xbox controller to fight against someone with a keyboard/mouse setup? I play shooters on both consoles and PCs, and the keyboard/mouse is far superior in terms of control and accuracy. I wouldn't want an Xbox player on my team if he has difficulty aiming. Would Valve have to modify TF2's gameplay to accommodate the shortcomings of the Xbox controller? (As in dumb the game down like EA did with C&C3 - another console/PC release)

    Oh, and do PC players and console players really have some burning desire to play with one another? TFC public servers have plenty of trolls and idiots, but no where near as many as I encounter on Xbox live. Fighting with them on Halo is bad enough.

    I own an X360, PS2, and PC so I can experience different forms of gaming. And at this point, my PC is still the best for shooter games.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by dorath ( 939402 )
      One would hope that Valve could create an extra setting with three options for each match: Console only, keyboard + mouse only, and mixed.

  • Wii? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Yvan256 ( 722131 ) on Thursday March 29, 2007 @03:51PM (#18534521) Homepage Journal
    It's sad to see the console with the best First-Person Shooter controllers gets pushed aside for its lower CPU and GPU capabilities.

    So you end up playing FPS games on more powerful systems with crappy controllers.

    And before you tell me that I only need to practice, I've got plenty of experience. About 15 years with a keyboard and mouse. The Wii remote and nunchuck take about 30 seconds to get used to. The analog sticks and dozen buttons on the Xbox 360 and PS3 gamepads? I gave up after 2 hours.

    And no, I don't own a Windows PC either.
    • The Wii control scheme is certainly superior to any control pad. However, it's still far from the precision and control of a keyboard/mouse combination.

      The Wii still doesn't allow someone to turn with the speed of a PC user and it doesn't allow for precise, quick targeting. The layout of the remote, and all the variables with the screen's size and the distance to that screen hinders accuracy.

      And that's not to mention that the targetting accuracy varies from game to game. I've had the on-screen crosshairs ji
      • The Wii still doesn't allow someone to turn with the speed of a PC user and it doesn't allow for precise, quick targeting. The layout of the remote, and all the variables with the screen's size and the distance to that screen hinders accuracy.

        Not to mention heat. If there is a window or a heater behind your TV, you can forget about playing with yoru Wii with anything that requires the wiimote to aim. IT's stutter and jump all over the screen because of the heat.
        • In front of a window is probably not the best place for your TV, but I hear you on the heater thing. Will curtains fix the window problem?
          • No. My friend have blinds and curtains. The IR radiation still eminates enough to screw the wii mote. for his house setting the big screen in front of the front window is the only orientationt hat works. it's unfortunate but we're night owls so it doesn't effect us that much generally.
            • Darn. I asked because I'm in a similar situation. Of course I can't find a Wii, so it's not a problem now, but I would like to get one at some point. I'll have to put the TV by the heater by day and by the window at night :)
              • Night time by a window should be fine. it's the daytime heat that makes the wii mote useless.shaking games are fine but anything requiring the IR is useless.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Yvan256 ( 722131 )
        I didn't say the Wii remote and nunchuck were better than the keyboard+mouse. However, for a console, it is better than the current gamepads with their little analog thumbsticks.

        As for the precision, I'm guessing it's more of a software problem than a hardware problem, similar to debouncing a button via software.

      • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

        by tepples ( 727027 )

        The Wii still doesn't allow someone to turn with the speed of a PC user

        Even if the game binds +Control Pad left and right to quick turning? What about rolling [wikipedia.org] the remote or the nunchuk to turn?

        The layout of the remote, and all the variables with the screen's size and the distance to that screen hinders accuracy.

        Would it be so hard to let the player adjust the pitch/yaw sensitivity?

        And that's not to mention that the targetting accuracy varies from game to game. I've had the on-screen crosshairs jittering on the Wii's system menus making it somewhat difficult to quickly select some of the smaller buttons. But then I'll play a game like Wario and the crosshairs are stable and fairly accurate but then there's a slight lag in responsiveness.

        Would it be so hard to let the player adjust the pitch/yaw moving average width?

        I'm sure we'll eventually see something better than the mouse/keyboard combination but the Wii controller isn't it.

        Does a mouse/keyboard combination allow for more than one player per monitor? Single-screen multiplayer is a big advantage of consoles over PCs, as the price of Wii + $60 eBay markup + 2nd remote + 2nd nunchuk is still less than the pr

  • I remember them talking about how innovative they are going to be using multiple cores in a new version of their engine. Have they finished it?

    I see why they fear the PS3, its not really using identical cores. Heck, I am not even sure how you can build a cross-platform game and utilize all the features of the PS3.

    Not that I care. I have played the demo of Quake 4 for the 360 and it looks like crap compared to the PC. Not going to be getting half-life 2 for either system.
    • You do realise Quake 4 was a very rushed launch game right? You shouldn't use it to jusdge the 360. Try checking out Battlefield 2, F.E.A.R., Gears of War (OK, technically not an FPS) or the upcoming Bioshock. The 360 is plenty fine at it.
      • Nono, I realize that. I was trying to compare the visuals of a game from the 360 to the PC. You would figure, with the lower res, that you could put more textures? Use all the cores? I know its comparing apples to oranges as I have a high end card, I just wonder that will any of these ported games ever will use all the power of the console, or if they just click a box in codewarriors cross platform C compiler.
        • all Xbox 360s are required to at least run in 1024x768 (or close to it, 720p), which also happens to be one of the most popular PC resolutions.

          It doesn't matter if you could fit more textures in the game at 480i/p, because then it wouldn't run at the required 720p
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • now correct me if im wrong, but on a ps3 or xbox360, the games are going to be harder, if not impossible to 'hack' due to the static state of being on a cd... I can see the console kids not being happy about some PC gamers running about with their aimbots and wallhacks and not being able to do the same... now I dislike cheating in this manner just like most people should... so maybe consoles actually have something right here
    • The fact that the console versions are "static state" has nothing to do with it. Almost ALL "hacks" involve a secondary program/process either using information that is in memory or information that the program is handling/sending/receiving. THAT is why hacking is easier on PC; it's much easier to develop and RUN a hack on PC, whereas doing so on a console is mostly impossible afaik.
    • VAC makes this a moot point. Also, 360 games can be hacked too (due to the reliance on MS's "unhackable" console); just look at Gears.
  • NO STEAM FOR THE PS3. I want one more than ever now! :)
  • ... when you build your entire source engine in DirectX. Of course valve's console takeup has been slow.

    It only works on two platforms Windows and 360.

    • ... when you build your entire source engine in DirectX. Of course valve's console takeup has been slow.

      It only works on two platforms Windows and 360.

      Instead of trolling, could you read what he said? He said nothing about DirectX. Porting a game that uses DirectX to another API is straightforward these days. How to make use of all the cores in the PS3 is not.

      Sorry to disappoint you, but DirectX is not the reason people don't port to other platforms.

  • What is going to be funny is when TF2 arrives on both Xbox and PC. For years, all the people I know who play the Xbox and PS2 have defended the place of FPS games on a console based system. I have been constantly disagreeing over the fact that with a gamepad, you cannot accurately and quickly aim and move fluently. PC's always have better control with the mouse and keyboard.

    Now when console FPS plays PC FPS, the results will speak for themselves. This could result in one of two things:
    1. Console players

  • Team Fortress 2 not out? (Score:4, Funny)

    by VGPowerlord ( 621254 ) on Thursday March 29, 2007 @11:51PM (#18539681)
    Team Fortress 2 still isn't out? I remember seeing an advertisement for it in the original Half-Life's box.

    What'd they do, outsource it to 3D Realms?

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by crolix ( 833807 )
      Yeah, it's one of those "when it's done" releases. Personally, I am wondering what kind of wonderful multi-player mods are in the works for the much anticipated Duke Nukem sequel... :)
      • Now I'm picturing a Duke Fortress mode. :D

        Nah, we'll probably see:
        Dukeperative
        Dukematch
        Team Dukematch
        Dukeslaught
        Dukesault
        Capture the Duke
        Double Dukination
        Last Duke Standing
        Dukevasion

        (Dukeified from the UT 2K4 games mode list [unrealtournament.com])

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