Randomized Maps in Team Fortress 2 Explained 133
Given the amount of time that gamers have been playing the original Team Fortress, it's no wonder that Valve has designed the upcoming Team Fortress 2 with longevity in mind. One aspect of that design process is map layout: a randomization algorithm will reconfigure the map every time a game is launched. The result will be a multiplayer game requiring much more than simple map memorization and sniper rifle spawn camping. The post on Computer and Videogames offers a video featuring project lead Robin Walker describing the complicated process of making every random map work well. "As for how the dynamic maps work in practice, that was hard to judge. The match we played on Hydro, the first map to use this special game mode, was enormous fun. But as extensive as our playtest was, they didn't let us play on the map for three years, and that's the kind of heavy use under which this system should flourish. What we did notice is that this is not just a Battlefield type system with some control points 'locked'. When a point is not in play, routes to that section of the map are physically blocked off, so the physical shape of the map is different for every combination of points. That forces you to revise your mental picture of the map, and see it as fresh again."
Nice (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Nice (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't think I'm particularly unique, but I have been thinking about this since Unreal Tournament was released
If you designed a (very) large level with 4 or 8 seperate paths/areas then your level could be (somewhat) randomized or load balanced (depending on the number of players on the server) to maintain the fun. I could be wrong but I have always thought that when small levels become overcrowded, or large levels have too few players, the game is simply not fun
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Great concept, but as you said, flawed execution.
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So feel free to -flamebait me too, at least I kind of deserve it. All I'm trying to say is +10 Valve on this one. And now I have to go
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-d
I never understood. (Score:5, Insightful)
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A lot of the FPS out there today our team oriented, or at least try to be. That means you want to spawn your players nearby, or behind their own team. Spawning at a random place on the map makes it a very solo kind of experience. If its a pure deathmatch, that might work fine.
Of course several games I've place, including TFC and DoD have both had moving spawn points. If you capture a point, your spawn point moves forward, helping you advance farther in the map. I usually really enjoy those maps. It
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Re:I never understood. (Score:5, Interesting)
Some measure of randomness in a map, as this story illustrates, can add to the dynamic nature of a game. Blocking some paths and opening others on a given map can force a different strategy on a player or team without throwing them into an entirely alien environment. In other words, it forces adaptation while maintaining familiarity.
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If chess players would disagree, then why was there complaints when Kasparov lost to Deep Blue, because they had programmed every game that Kasparov had ever played into the machine.
Really, do I even need to answer this?? Kasparov had played many computer games, thus the computer had a long history of Kasparov's playing patterns to look through. Gary meanwhile did not have a history of the computer's playing patterns since it had not played any games before.
However, I think it's a little bit of a fallacy to say that memorization of a map means that you are good at a game.
Wrong. It's not a fallacy if memorization of a map is part of the game. In fact there's many games that require only the skill of memorization, including one called (surprise!) "Memory". Some people prefer being able to memorize a
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Again, I'll harp about my favorite genre with FPS games with the hard core realism in which skill does count.
Take Red Orchestra [redorchestragame.com] for example. I keep harping on it because it is realistically painful. Historical imbalances have been added to the game to make it close to the real thing as possible.
You have to deal wi
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Have to agree with you on the maps too. Given that the specific layout of the map is part of the balance between sides, I think it would be fairly difficult to randomize the maps in it.
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Technically, if the map was random then everyone would be looking for a weapon and not just you.
That is the point of it being random. When I play online games I usually play games that don't have health packs and weapon pickups as far as realism (I pr
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Claustrophobopolis (dm2): there are two rocket launchers, and one of them can only be accessed through a teleporter (unless you already have a RL, then you can rocket jump instead). The other rocket launcher is in the middle of a room elsewhere. If a team ca
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It doesn't make sense in the 'base' mentality to have all the stuff spread randomly around the level.
Also, TF was never just 'deathmatch with flags' like CTF was. It was about specific classes with specific abilities doing specific jobs. It's not about who c
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Sad Face (Score:3, Insightful)
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Still dreaming of a 3D FPS version of Nethack.
Well actually I can think of a game that has quite some similarities with Nethack (although more maze-ish) and that's in first person 3D and that is almost a shooter (in that sometimes you can shoot and throw stuff). It's called Scarab of Ra [semicolon.com], and works great on Mini vMac (a Macintosh Plus emulator)
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If the map changes too much, each team is left spending the first few minutes of a match figuring out what's different and how that affects any strategies. For deathmatch, whoever spawns closest to the "best weapons" has an advantage until people figure out what's different.
I can understand some ra
Depends on your personality, I guess (Score:2)
E.g., in Bartle's scheme (ok, so it was made for MUDs/MMOs, not FPS, but it does partially apply to more than MUDs/MMOs) I can just see a die-hard achiever (the guys playing for score) jumping in front of the same vent or taking the same pre-learned route to maximize his score. Whereas an explorer will love discovering new routes, dealing with new situations, etc.
And don't laugh, I pers
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TF Classic went from "team deathmatch and CTF" to "team know-your-position-and-run-the-map deathmatch and CTF". And it wasn't just TF - that's pretty much symptomatic of any team based FPS you can think of. Sooner or later, a team emerges that has "running the map" as a key component of victory; then everyone else has to follow suit in order to win.
If I'm playing an FPS, I expect the advantage to be handed to those with good FPS skills: reflexes, ammo management, aiming, steal
hahaha Sweet (Score:2)
I hope I never have to play de_dust again!!! (well I actually can't play anything right now, cause I'm too lazy to configure the 3d drivers under ubuntu and then play around with Cedega to get Steam working...)
Either way, thank you Valve.
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Is it me (Score:2)
Racing games beat you to the punch (Score:3, Insightful)
Still cool. But not as much memorization as they imply.....
Layne
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Every fresh round, it'd pick one of 3 routes through the map to unlock so that the hotspots moved. I don't know if it was random though, because it seems everybody else managed to find the unlocked area perfectly:P
Interesting... (Score:2)
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On the other hand, if it's the first to, say, 3 flags, a handicap that allows a losing team to walk faster or get better weapo
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Battlefield 2 would be great with team deathmatch, solo deathmatch probably not as much but a smaller map would work or a solo
TF2 RL (Score:4, Funny)
Ranodomized maps (Score:2, Funny)
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Former Vaporware (Score:1)
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You're either a new TF2 fan and haven't been clinging around for ten years, or you're just a fanatic. Either way, you trying to argue this is a bit ridiculous. Ten years with very little to show for it: that's my perspective.
Dumbing down of FPSs (Score:5, Interesting)
The elements of skill at FPSs:
1. Twitch
2. Map control
3. Enemy prediction
4. Self unpredictability
Twitch is pretty much dead now that FPSs are designed for consoles, and usually running at 30fps. Success at twitch requires good genetics (fast reaction time is critical), and obsessive training (so it can become subconscious, if you have to think you'll be to slow), so understandably it is not popular with all gamers. Therefore the game designers add autoaim and weapon spread to make it less important.
Map control requires great memorization and 3d visualization skills. You need to know where every chokepoint, every item spawn, every enemy spawn is, and be able to instantly visualize every route between any two arbitrary points on the map. This isn't so limited by genetics, but if still requires a lot of effort, and again repels the "casual" gamers. Randomizing the maps makes this skill less important.
At the tactical level, enemy prediction and self unpredictability are closely related to map control. There's a constant tension between needing to control the map and avoiding predictable behavior. Things like knowing high traffic areas to fire a rocket into without looking, and knowing where an enemy is most likely to appear after seeing them briefly all depend on map knowledge. These last two skills are not completely eliminated by random maps, only reduced to skill at highly local movement.
Map randomization helps reduce multiplayer FPS from a legitimate competitive sport to just another amusement.
Re:Dumbing down of FPSs (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Dumbing down of FPSs (Score:5, Insightful)
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BTW, my first
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Grand Theft Auto 2 --> 3 ? Was the game mechanic "stealing cars" that had to be retained?
Super Mario World --> Mario 64 ? "Platformer" as the mechanic?
I'm sure you can think of other examples; a series can retain the essence of gameplay but change dramatically (the 2D-->3D examples were the most dramatic I could think of thoug). If people don't like TF 2, why not keep playing the ori
evolution of GTA isn't what you think (Score:3, Interesting)
The main gameplay sections actually aren't that different between the 2! In fact this is most obvious in GTA3, which had an "overhead" camera mode that made it look surprisingly close to 2. Really, the difference is mostly camera angle, and being able to do a bit more vertically. (And, I'd say, drive a lot faster since then you could see where you were going!)
The real difference, IMO, was that *cutscenes* were now in the same 3D engine, instead of just voiceover phonecal
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I think the question was artistic, wanting to tell a certain story rather than having the player make it up. (And even then it was a transition; GTA3 still had a silent protagonist)
Plus, the cut scenes in GTA are a lot more varied than in Mercenaries, which are little more than the simple mission briefings (IIRC) with a few lines of color before and after, like if you go up to the surrounding soldiers. That's been around for YEARS.
Also, I dunno... in mercenaries
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I disagree. Map randomization makes scouting useful. Without it, memorization of the map and various points on it is the key to victory, as you have pointed out. By randomizing the map, though, the game becomes more about analyzing the terrain situation and working out the best strategy for it in real time. One skill (rote memorization) is replaced with another (analytical thinking under pressur
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Dumber? No. (Score:5, Insightful)
This adds another aspect to playing the game. You know what you have to do, but now you also need to explore the map and find the weapons, find the best choke points all while the other team is doing the same thing. And you have to do this every single time.
Team communication is going to be even more important now. Your team will have to be dynamic and adaptable to not only the enemy, but to the terrain as well.
As far as I'm concerned, eliminating the blind rush to see who can get the super weapon/power up first is a good thing. Making players think more is not making the game dumber. People who don't like to think, who don't like new challenges every time they enter the game, won't like it.
I stopped playing FPS' because I was bored with the maps. People played the same maps over and over and over and over. It was always a mad rush to the same known locations. While that can be fun too, after a while I need some variety.
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You're right about one thing. Psychology would change. Instead of running straight to the choke point you know about, you have to find a choke point and then wonder if maybe your opponent may have found a different way in. Every time through it's a whole new game.
When I state I don't play
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No, you're just being closed mined about it. What the game is simply changes. As for the skills you mentioned above, they all still play in to a random map:
1. Twitch
It's an FPS, this will always be part of the game. If anything, the randomness is going to emphasize this further. It takes little in the way of quick reaction to fire a rocket at a known location when you see the enemy. On the other hand, if you don't know where that enem
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That's prolly why TF classic, quake3 and CS were so unpopular.. oh wait.
I see it as another attempt at Valve saying "how can we "improve" this already established franchise", unfortunately improving for valve means splitting the fan base and decimating a popular game.
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Have you ever actually played TFC (or even TF?) There are no "super weapon[s]" or "power up[s]" that you can pick up. You spawn with all the weapons you can ever have (barring kit change) depending on the class you chose, and anything you might pick up (armor, ammo, grnades) is always in your base, in the spawn/resupply room, which is usually protected by ceiling turrets against enemy
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TF2 will be mainly team based, and in regards to casual play, random maps is great. Casual duels in team games will be based on who can adapt faster to a new map seed only for the limited time the match is on. realtime visualization a
Re:Dumbing down of FPSs (Score:5, Insightful)
I disagree: It adds a new feature to "map control", and that's "reconnaissance." If you don't know what the map looks like up front, you have to determine what it looks like, and then you can attempt control just like in any other map.
A randomized map still has chokepoints, item spawns, and enemy spawns. Figure them out before the other guy does.
-F
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I don't know of a multiplayer game that has auto aim. None of the ones I've played do, anyway.
"Randomizing the maps makes this skill less important."
This would be true if the maps were actually redesigned each game. What's happening is that certain parts of maps are blocked in each game, and the starting point changes, but the map itself does not. They're not looking to confuse the player, or to remove any chance of the m
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No, it doesn't. It's just as important. You just need to be smart and adaptable enough to figure it out as you play. You know, like real life.
Of course, it makes it harder for Rain-Man players like you who have a conniption if your spaghetti isn't served on the exact same Big Bird
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Playing a dynamic and possibly unpredictable map takes far more skill than playing de_dust for seven years non-stop.
Console FPS games are designed for consoles.
They're added because the games are played with gamepads, which are not as good as mice. It's not a sini
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Uuuuhh I don't see how this makes it any less competitive. There are still teams and they are still fighting each other for some type of points. This just reduces the game to generalized skills, and would probably lead to increased player communication during a match. In a randomized map, I imagine it would be beneficial to tell your teammates where some weapon spawn is, or where a good sniper p
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A somewhat randomized map is emphasizing a different and
TFC (Score:2, Flamebait)
I'm a huge TFC fan, I play it even to today and love every moment of it, but I absolutely refuse to buy another Valve game ever again due to extremely poor marketeering.
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The prodige drinks machine is still a fictional drink BTW.
Already done, kinda? (Score:1)
So is TF2 still planned for the Quake 2 engine? (Score:1)
This game has been in development almost as long as
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Nobody's seen really anything of the new Duke, correct me if I'm wrong. There's shed-loads of TF2 stuff out there.
Half-Life's TFC map sequence (Score:3, Informative)
2fort
2fort
2fort
2fort
2fort
That was my biggest gripe of Half Life TFC: Almost no map variety. You were almost always guaranteed to play 2fort. It was the de_dust of TFC. It got boring after awhile.
I enjoyed the other maps like the attack/defense map where you would have the attacking team going literally at a snail's pace towards the flag due to all the crossfire. It was great. Favorite map? The map of the gigantic living room where snipers frequently stood in the bookshelf.
In terms of multiplayer-PC game maps, Multi Theft Auto is great. Tons of maps(Deathmatch and race), most of them suck, but still fun to play. They load literally in a second, being grafted onto San Andreas. Now only if the combat(ie get out of your car) MTA will surface.
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Honestly, my favorite map was a TF original that never (to my knowledge) made it into TFC, called 'bases'
UT2k4 Onslaught Random (Score:2)
These are not random maps (Score:2)
These are not randomly generated maps. They are not procedural. The idea is actually that there is one base map which can have 14 different states depending on lots of different factors.
This type of map would then, in my opinion, make memorization even more important. There are certain areas of the map that are blocked off and certain areas that are opened up depending upon factors like CP ownership.
This is not procedural. It is not done to "balance the game"
Maps not really random (Score:2)
the more things change (Score:2)
Heh (Score:2)
There's actually been a lot of development in Quake1 these days. FTEQuake (with shaders and new particle effects) looks like a modern FPS, and is fully compatible with all the old Quakeworld servers and clients.
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Part of the Source engine that is not used (Score:3, Informative)
Granted what they are going for seems a little more ambitious for TF2, but feature like that are what internet based FPS's need to progress and become better. TF has also been one of the few FPS's that truly utilize height in map making, something that is lacking in most CS maps...