EU Considering Regulating Sale of Violent Games 299
Spamicles writes "European Union justice ministers met today in order to discuss the regulation of sales of violent video games to minors. Europeans were riled up last year when a German gunman shot several people before taking his life at a secondary school. A European Union Commissioner is taking advantage of the shootings last year called for stricter regulations in the video game industry. A motion introduced last month calls for legislators to "put in place all necessary measures to ban the sale of particularly violent and cruel video games.""
Cruel? (Score:4, Funny)
Like Daikatana?
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Re:Cruel? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Cruel? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Cruel? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Cruel? (Score:5, Interesting)
Is it me or COULD there be a connection? I mean, when did you ever hear of a teenager going postal in a, say, Starbucks? Why is it always schools?
Re:Cruel? (Score:4, Funny)
Ridiculous (Score:3, Funny)
Save The Children is our politicians!
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Banning violent video games IMHO is stupid and counter productive since a violent game will most likely enable a person to take out their aggression on the game rather than actually take out their anger on real people. Most people who
Let's calm down for a moment, though (Score:2)
Frankly, I don't see anything wrong with that. We all rant and rave a
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We knew this was coming (Score:5, Insightful)
Our best hope, really, comes from the fact that the Presidency moves on to Portugal at the start of July. So far as I know, Portugal's position on games is nothing like as screwed up as Germany's and they might not be so motivated to keep pushing to advance this.
The proposed EU constitution rejected by a number of states over the last few years was a bad joke, but there's no denying that the EU needs serious structural reform. Unfortunately, given that said reform should really limit the powers of the EU institutions rather than enhancing them, we're unlikely to see any sensible proposals emerging any time soon.
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Re:We knew this was coming (Score:5, Informative)
The ratings are also pretty fair and its not that expensive to get something rated (a couple of thousand for a 90 minute film)
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The British film-lobby must suck at their jobs.
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Germany is already completely screwed up (Score:5, Interesting)
- No soldiers, you're commanding "robots". Which is a bit odd when it comes to the special units, but
- Of course they don't bleed or yell when they die. They just fall over and vanish.
- No Anthrax in the arsenal of the Terrorists, they're using acid. Why that acid only affects "robots" and no tanks is beyond me, but ok.
- Here's the best part: No suicide bombers, instead you have cute little "rolling bombs" which resemble a tea-cart with a comic-style "bomb" on top. Why those teacarts can drive cars or generally behave like humans not really explained.
And so on. I mean, I don't need my games "bloody", but when it crosses the line to ridiculous that's usually where I stop enjoying the games. And the "germanized" versions usually leap over that line by a few miles.
It can get more stupid (Score:5, Funny)
E.g., take "No One Lives Forever 2". The original game tweaked the AI a lot, so the enemies would notice a fallen comrade, see if he's dead, etc. Except the German version came and replaced all corpses with backpacks.
So for a start you ended up hiding and/or disposing of backpacks instead of corpses. I mean, wth? Why would someone sound the alarm for seeing a backpack near a bed in the barracks? Don't all soldiers have one of those anyway?
But it gets better. Picture this: A patrol comes by and starts shaking the backpack and saying stuff like "Oh no! Are you still alive? Say something!"
I mean, WTF? Since when was a backpack alive in the first place?
All that clever scripting and trying to make it believable in the original game... just made it look stupid in the censored version.
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There's not enough money in the budget to rework all the AI and cutscenes to make sense in Germany, and if they make it for Germany from the start, they won't make as much money in the other countries.
On the other hand, a friend pointed out to me today that you never hear of school-massacres from countries other than the US. Is it because we do
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Most of the gameplay changes aren't mandated by the law. There is a central agency which gives those ratings, and in extreme cases might even ban the game (mostly if you tried to go around them), but they can't tell you what to change in those games.
Mostly the changes happen just because the publisher wants to get a lower age rating, that's all. Most of the time it's some marketroid saying, basically, "noooo, 18+ is missing our target demographic, we need 16+ at all cost!!!" Tha
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Probably both. They don't happen all that often in the rest of the civilized world, and when they do, they don't receive a lot of coverage in the US (just like so many other news items that happen "elsewhere).
On the other hand, you don't hear about many "school shooting" inci
Re:Germany is already completely screwed up (Score:5, Interesting)
I often ask myself if this is doing any good to the children. Especially in first person shooters. Kids shoot at things that look like humans, they kill them but nothing happens, they usually just fall down and/or disappear. The lessons a kid could learn from this is? pointing with weapons at people and pulling the trigger doesn't do much (no scream, no blood, nothing). It's clean
Erfurt (germany's colombine) did happen despite the draconian measures the german government put on computer games. AFAIK there has not been such a case in another european country which have (mostly) very lax rules about computer games. It should be clear that happenings like Erfurt or Colombine are not caused due to computer games but most likely due to the environment of the school kid (personal problems, problems with family, teacher maybe all of them).
Such laws do what? Usually after a release of the "german version" of a game there'll be a patch available (or a config setting documented) how to change the game back into its original non-german state. That's what i always do and i do not know anyone who does not. Many german friends have started ordering their games via internet from the uk or usa not because these games are cheaper there and not because many games get released earlier in the uk and the usa no - they want the "original version[tm]"
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Wolfenstein 3D was completely banned in Germany. Apparently it glorified Nazis... by making you kill lots of them.
So basically you're saying the EU works? (Score:2)
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I don't know, I think it is a little ironic that now they are voluntarily in that position.
Maybe when the British get the presidency, they could suggest some changes in the way the Germans do things?
Gun violence != Violent video games (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Gun violence != Violent video games (Score:5, Interesting)
Not part of the EU but here in Switzerland the gun lobby made sure the policies are quite friendly to them. No politician wants to touch that with all the foreign currency coming in from weapons exports. Time to time the mandatory assault rifle at home for all service-man policy (with military service mandatory for all males) makes a scandal when some guy goes Rambo but then they hush it with "values of tradition" and other crap and everybody forgets about it. And nobody talks about the use of such rifle involved and way too many suicides.
But yeah, lets blame video games and leave the weapons in the hands of the people... Like we need them! It's bloody Switzerland, not Israel.
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Example from 1994: Population 7 Mio; violent deaths: 1596, total homicide 92; homicide involving firearms: 40; total suicide 1490; suicide involving firearms 392.
Households wi
Re:Gun violence != Violent video games (Score:4, Insightful)
Clean up the gene pool my ass. Our field of physics will move more slowly without her.
But then, I wouldn't want to get in the way of you clinging to your unnecessary guns with a religious zealotry.
Anonymous Coward couldn't be more appropriate for that tripe. If you're a total jackass, fine, but have the strength in your blind faith to attach your name, loser.
Re:Gun violence != Violent video games (Score:4, Insightful)
Hanging takes time and you have to resist saving yourself (or you set it up so you can't).
Cutting your wrist/throat/whatever requires resisting a lot of pain til you black out.
Drink/Alcohol requires a lot of work to get it and then take enough to die.
Jumping off a building/bridge requires you to goto said place, climb up, then jump off.
All of the above have some kind of barrier between you and them, picking up a gun is just as simple as closing your eyes and pulling a trigger. Which compared to the others is a walk in the park.
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As far as the necessity of an armed populace, there is only one sure historical truth: Sooner or later the tree of liberty must be refreshed with the blood of patriots and tyrants and if tyrants are the only ones with firearms the tree may very well drown from an excess of the blood of patriots.
In a democracy you can vote people out of power. Historically there have not been many democracies so far.
I'll believe this type of argument if say the US citizens use guns to revolt instead of voting out the current party.
If you really believe this, wouldn't citizens owning nuclear weapons just accelerate the process, or do you think there should be limits on the destructive power a single person should have?
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What happened to gun regulation? (Score:5, Interesting)
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Here's a good question. Are video games simply the blame du jour or does the gun lobby have something to do with it? As evil as it sounds, maybe it's time for a games lobby?
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It's just the usual "dunno it, so it's the culprit (Score:5, Interesting)
Along came radio. So it was the radio telling our kids all the wrong things. Radio listeners grew up and behold, again being a loonie wasn't the next big thing.
Swing music. It has to be that dreaded swing music with all those odd wiggling dances that drives the youth nuts. Well, guess what, the swingers grew up...
Ok, television. That flashy crap, it's the bane of youth and rots their brains. Hmm... nope, the TV generation grew up (not to mention that the TV lobby is strong enough that even though TV did rot their brains...).
Heavy metal! The devil's music and all those hidden messages twisting our kids minds and making their hair grow! Well, the metalheads grew up and cut their hairs, the beheading of chickens by biting their heads off isn't the new fad, so... nope, not either.
RPGs. That's it. Dungeons and Dragons, the devil spawn itself! Look at all those false gods and whatnot and our kids getting lost in that fantasy world. Well, the D&D generation grew up and still no temples of Bane and human sacrifices.
But
See a pattern? It's always whatever the teenage group is interested in that the parent generation does not understand. The current generation of teenager parents is in the area of their 40s, born around or just before 1970, grown up in the mid/late 80s. Some might even know computer games, but those games were anything but realistic. They know all about TV, radio, books, music (hey, especially music!), but usually know precious little about computer games.
So who's gonna get the blame?
I predict in 5 years it's gonna be trading card games and Animes.
Re:It's just the usual "dunno it, so it's the culp (Score:2)
Right now (in Australia at least) it's the emo subculture that's destroying our youth. Two teenage girls commit suicide and it's front page news for weeks... if they'd been fugly instead of hot (in a goth-chick way), it woulda been mentioned once on page 17 then dropped. Damn media.
As for what *our* kids are going to be making us tut-tut
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Maybe 5 years was a bit early. But it's certainly gonna be some very suitable scapegoat for the 2010 to 2020 years. After that, who knows what's the next fad for teenagers. But it's certainly going to twist their minds, ruin their lives and turn them into monsters.
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Actually... (Score:2)
I imagine every slashdotter knows how isolating obsessive tendencies can become (even if its just hours spent playing Nethack online).
[I know, I've stepped over slashdot's "all censorship is unremittingly evil
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Make a law regulating all violent media, or don't make a law at all. Preferably the latter.
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I don't think anything here would change much, but then I haven't RTFA, so I could be wrong.
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Those laws already exist, for example the UK has the BBFC [bbfc.co.uk] which regulates domestic sales of media. IMHO extending the system to include games is a no brainer. It didn't make sense with pacman, but games are getting more and more imersive and this change is inevitable.
Unfortunately, the BBFC has a history of requiring cuts, for example headbutts are frowned upon, in order to relea
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Everyone is influenced to do everything they do based on what they see and hear. It's how humans and most animals learn. We observe and copy. You obviously don't have children.
Whenever you form an opinion on something, it is done by your brain searching through for relevant information and groking it for you. You are the sum of all your experiences.
A child brought up in a violent family tends to follow their ways. The question is, how much of an
What could happen? (Score:4, Insightful)
At least they can control the violence in games, but TV doesn't bring that option.
I think it's up to the parents to take control over what their children can handle. The parent knows best what's best for the kid. I know a 10-year old that plays GTA, but he still knows the difference between games and real life. The parents need to know if their child can draw that line, before their children cross it.
And it will start with violence, but what are they going to do about racing games? They'll try to find a link between car accidents and Gran Turismo...
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Roughly speaking, they found that people who play a lot of racing games drive more aggressively in racing games. Instead of putting them behind the wheel of a real vehicle, they put them in a simulator. The possibility that knowing nobody could get hurt might be a factor apparently never even crossed their minds.
No link handy, but I'm pretty sure it was on Slashdot.
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Excelent point, I remember seeing that study as well. They really should repeat it using real cars etc. I personally think there is a connection, having driven a little too fast in real life after playing games. Once I powerslid round a corner in the rain without even noticing I'd done it until 30 seconds later. It was a bit of an eye opener.
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oh yes, that'll help (Score:5, Insightful)
What we have here is a handy emotive issue that can be used to make politicians sound like they are 'in touch' with the needs of the community. The fact that its a loads of nonsense obviously has no relevence.
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Judging from the situations in those places (Score:2)
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Nice point, shame it's wrong. Polititians do not pick up on points of concern to the public, they pick up on the concerns about which there is the most shouting or potential publicity/funding from pressure groups.
The public are not concerned about this issue. Most wouldn't even know about it unless someone plastered it across a newspaper. The lobbyists with money are concer
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Ok, at least that's a fair warning ...
A constant background culture of violence, materialism and porn will create a different mood in society to a constant background of for instance, art, classical music and meditative exercises.
I think you are taking the easy way out by using "different mood" instead of what you imply - i.e. that it's much worse, but for which you have no proof. Bringing up porn into a discussion about violence follows the ususal patten of "modern w
not an outright ban (Score:5, Interesting)
I have loved playing GTA over the last few years, but that doesn't mean that I think it's appropriate for 10 year olds to play. I have no interest in the likes of Manhunt, but I see no reason that it shouldn't be made - only reasons that it shouldn't be sold to the wee ones.
If we had something stronger than volunteer parental ratings for an ignorant parental populous, just maybe we wouldn't have to listen to Jack Thompson's tripe any longer. After all, the generation that up until very recently has been buying games for their kids has had NO way of understanding the medium - it's been foreign to parents, and therefore parents have made dubious purchasing decisions.
Why not make retailers check ID as a liquor store does? Some games are simply inappropriate for little kids and should be limited to adult consumption. They shouldn't be "banned" or limited in the production, but the sales should be limited to those who are old enough to have learned what boundaries are.
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When I was wee, I was pretty much allowed to watch as violent a movie as I wished by age 10 (these were the Rambo and Revenge of the Ninja years), but when I wanted a moderately violent videogame, my dad said no. When I asked why it was any different he gave a fairly long speech about the effects of replaying a scene over and over or trying to complete a level 20 times, versus seeing it on the screen for a minute. That may be totally misled, but it really stuck with me.
The fact is, my parents w
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A parent should have the right to say what their kids may or may not do. I'm strongly against giving the state too much power over what kind of information parents may give to their kids!
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Actually, for the UK at least, we'd actually be holding games to the *same* standard we hold movies. The BBFC ratings given to films are legally binding and its a crime to let a minor in to see an 18-cert film, or to sell/rent the DVD to them.
For those not familiar with the cinema ratings in the UK:
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No, it's illegal to sell violent films to children here in the UK and other places in Europe as well. The USA idea that children should be able to buy violent films is considered quite odd by people over here.
Precisely. The government is putting the decision in the hands of the parents, rather than letting the kid
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I don't know if you're a parent or not, but how would you feel if your kids could go buy alcohol an pornography as much as they want and there was nothing you could do about it? (except try punishment etc.)
It seems to be an American thing that people apply "fre
Pardon the Godwin's Law Violation... (Score:2)
More constructive advice: economies where young folks can actually get hired might put a dent in that wave of youth crime. I doubt you'll find that many of the 300 cars which will get burned in France tonight were torched by kids with jobs. Thats the liberal part of me talking. The conservative part of me adds that you'll want to figure out how to assimilate more of those immigrants, because I doubt that many of the cars are being bur
Huh? (Score:5, Informative)
No we weren't.
Re:Huh? (Score:4, Informative)
Go sensationalism!
They have already admitted that the reason is fake (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm from Germany, which is the country pushing hard for this sort of nonsense I'm ashamed to say. However, the reason they ostensibly give is not the true reason they are pushing for it. Several of the major proponents of this have already let it slip that the real reason is that they don't want people to play video games period. They don't want teenagers "wasting their time" with games and get "worse grades" at school which may make them less attractive as wage slaves, I mean, makes it harder for them to f
Re:They have already admitted that the reason is f (Score:2)
Magic Bullet (Score:3, Interesting)
The practical effect of this seems to me to obviously be that people that want to play violent video games will now just get them through non-official channels - ie, they'll pirate them. Or download any number of violent video games that are made available for free on the Internet [americasarmy.com] to anyone in the world.
Politicians - please stop wasting your time and our money and get back to doing something else. Leave the parenting to the parents and let people accept some responsibility for their actions, eh?
Why politicians want to scape-goat violent videos (Score:5, Insightful)
1) Boost their popularity by portraying themselves as crime fighters who are protecting the children
2) An excuse to get rid of (or at least limit) things they just don't like or want
It's interesting:
- that this crime was committed by a 19 year old, which would be considered a legal adult in most countries (except for the US where you have to be 21 to enjoy full legal status, i.e. the alcohol laws)
- they don't blame guns
- they haven't looked into the social life and influences of this person other than he played a video game(s)
Point in fact:
- rape and murder are not caused by pornography, video games, rock and roll, Drugs, or any of the other usual suspects. False analogies are just that - false. It's too hard for them to find the real answers to social problems like spending money for after school programs, and providing people with proper social housing, medical and social support for psychiatric programs, etc... the list goes on. Simplifying the cause of a murder to a video game is so ludicrous it would be laughable if it were not true.
When I was a kid I wondered why adults are so stupid. As an adult I still wonder.
Re:Why politicians want to scape-goat violent vide (Score:3, Insightful)
Two more:
1. They don't understand or play video games.
2. They don't believe a significant number of their voters or donors play violent video games.
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But can be triggered by them.
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I can't read your mind, so I don't know whether you are trying to be Funny, a
Who cares about facts? (Score:2)
First, the Johann Gutenberg High School shooting was 5 years ago.
Second, nothing I've read on this particular shooting ever linked it to video games. He was expelled from school.
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Simple solution to "think of the children" complex (Score:3, Interesting)
This forces their parents to buy everything for them. They can't hire Random Guy to buy their cigs because Random Guy would in effect be selling to the minors (a crime). The parents are presumably giving their offspring what they need, so they commit no crime. This way, I don't have to deal with stupid laws, but more importantly the state doesn't have to decide on the standard by which children are raised, which is a terrible, terrible idea.
Re:Simple solution to "think of the children" comp (Score:2)
It's already a crime to supply minors with cigarettes (in Norway anyways). The same goes for selling or giving them items that can encourage tobacco use, as well as sale from vending machines.
We're thinking of the children.
New bussiness opportunity (Score:2)
2. Advertise them in EBay for double the marked price
3. Admit those false moustaches as proof of age
4. Profit!
That without taking P2P networks into account. I'm not sure if the EU bureaucrats are aware of the difficulties of controlling the distribution of digital content in the Internet era. They should talk to the RIAA before wasting their time.
Games don't kill, RPGs do. (Score:2)
WTF? They want to regulate games, while at the same time selling weapons willy nilly to anyone with the cash to pay for them (no questions asked)? The US and Russia leads the world arms trade, but runners up have suspiciously European-sounding country names:
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,2605823,0 0.html [dw-world.de]
I think this is what we call a Cluster of Clusterbombers:
http://apps.sipri.org/milap/world_aprod_map.html [sipri.org]
http://www.sipri.org/contents/milap/mile [sipri.org]
Yeah send these people underground (Score:2)
PEGI? (Score:5, Insightful)
This stuff happens every time some psychopath decides to go on a rampage. Banning violent video games won't work, and is completely bloody stupid when you consider where half of your so-called "traditional" games come from. Chess is a war game. If you think British Bulldog [wikipedia.org] is innocent, try thinking of it as a bunch of people trying to rush a gun platform. "Ring-a-roses" is a warning poem describing the symptoms of bubonic plague. The only difference between these games and video games is the fact that for the first time in history, a war game or zombie horror story can be rendered on a screen in real-time with precise detail.
You can only take a psycho down before they kill too many people. Sometimes you're lucky and someone will spot that a person is acting strangely or getting unstable. Banning violent video games will just mean that the next time someone decides to start dishing out mass lead injections, we'll have slingshots or some other item banned because, well, he started by firing marbles at cats and it progressed from there. Something Must Be Done, Think Of The Children, you catch my drift.
I hope the justice ministers discussing this have a sudden attack of common sense and declare that any mature, sensible adult should be able to engage in as much of an orgy of virtual destruction as they like. Fact is, taking some geek out with a headshot is fun, dammit. It's the old equation of "(fear - danger) == excitement".
Has anyone ever wondered about reasons? (Score:3, Insightful)
COULD there be a connection rather than with their choice of video games?
Fakt: ALL of those teenagers or young adults who went on a killing spree had rather poor grades and were generally not accepted members of their "society" (however you want to define it). Many of them have already dropped out or were forced to leave their schools.
COULD there be a connection rather than with their choice of video games?
Fakt: ALL of those who sought bloody "revenge" come from what is today labeled a "broken home", usually with negligent or abusive parents with few or no friends.
COULD there be a connection rather than with their choice of video games?
But no, let's blame games. It's less hassle than having to deal with the problems.
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Fakt: It is easy to label a parent 'negligent' after their child commits a mass murder.
Fakt: It is easy to say someone was an outcast after they commit mass murder. NOBODY is going to say 'he was such a good friend' because they will be watched closely afterwards for the same behavior.
Fakt: Everyone that kills people is angry or crazy, not just children.
Fakt: Everyone that kills because they are angry goes after those they are angry at.
Fakt: Taking a gun and shoo
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Talking about limelight, another reason we didn't even touch yet. Generally, you have teenagers and young adults in that "going postal" group who are anything but the limelight takers. They ain't the sports heroes, ain't the top geeks
I am questioned ... (Score:4, Insightful)
And when I see at the same time that one single nipple displayed on a show triggers a massive censorship on live TV shows, I am even more questioned.
Does this mean that a nipple is more obscene for child that a live murder ? Does it mean that a nipple is more abnormal and unnatural than to kill somebody ?
What kind of example is this for children ?
When born, children have no nudity problem, once fed with occidental culture, the trouble starts : nude = abnormal bad evil, violence = normal cool fun !
To me the real problem with occidental culture is violence addiction. Violence shocks nobody. But a single niple shows almost everybody.
Realy we should all go and consult a Psychologist, because we got a problem
What are non-violent games? (Score:2)
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What's wrong with this? (Score:3, Insightful)
Do folks see this type of regulation as a slippery slope? What could it lead to?
If parents want their kids to be able to play violent games, they can just buy them. Not allowing the children themselves to purchase the games isn't really a problem IMO. If publishers are concerned that their marketing efforts to children will be wasted, then maybe they need to change their marketing. If adults won't buy these games for their kids, it's a different problem.
scapegoats (Score:2)
Would be nice if people started providing solid evidence before legislating. but such is the flaw in democracy. it enables rule by the [ignorant] masses, or at least allows politicians to justify their own [warped] agenda by claiming they are serving the interest
Germany loves regulating. (Score:2)
On the other hand, this type of thinking just doesn't fly with other members of the European union, where you're expected to be smart enough to tell your kids what they can play, watch and do. And supervise them if you feel thats necessary.
I think a German friend of mine explained how some videoshops work, ple
i subscribe to the catharsis theory (Score:5, Interesting)
the truth is that violence and rape have actually been going down in areas of the world where media saturation with sexual/ violent content is allowed. that instead of desensitizing people to sex/ violence, pornography and violent media provide for a harmless release that would otherwise happen in the "real world"
it all boils down to how you view the social development of children. are we born vessels of purity and innocence that are corrupted by society? or are we born raging no impulse control demons that are tamed by society? i don't know about you, but i've been around some 3 year olds recently, and a 3 year old human being is basically a feces slinging monster. Scale up a 3 year old to a teenager or young adult, without any proper social development, and you have your basic madman killer/ rapist. so social development channels our sexual and violent impulses into more appropriate channels, and violent and sexual media are merely an extension of this ability to tame our negative and natural impulses into harmless release
anyone who played a lot of violent videogames/ watched a lot of violent movies/ indulged in a lot of pornography and then went out and killed/ raped is someone who is psychologically already damaged, and it wasn't the media that made him or her commit crime, and it would have been some other stimulus that would have precipitated their behavior if they were never exposed to violent/ sexual media. blaming the media is a red herring
some of you may consider me bizarre, but i actually think we should expose children to MORE violent and MORE sexual media, in GREATER quantity, at a YOUNGER age. and this will result in less real life rape and violence
i am not in any way joking. i seriously and firmly believe that
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