Valve's Gabe Newell on Apple's Gaming Failures 217
The site Kikizo has up a lengthy interview with Gabe Newell, co-founder of Valve and one of the minds behind the Half-Life 2 games. Though their discussion centers around the Orange Box (slated for release soon) and the titles contained therein, the discussion kicks off with Newell's scathing dress-down of Apple's understanding of the importance of gaming: "We tried to have a conversation with Apple for several years, and they never seemed to... well, we have this pattern with Apple, where we meet with them, people there go 'wow, gaming is incredibly important, we should do something with gaming'. And then we'll say, 'OK, here are three things you could do to make that better', and then they say OK, and then we never see them again. And then a year later, a new group of people show up, who apparently have no idea that the last group of people were there, and never follow though on anything. So, they seem to think that they want to do gaming, but there's never any follow through on any of the things they say they're going to do. That makes it hard to be excited about doing games for their platforms."
Hey! They got games for Mac too... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Hey! They got games for Mac too... (Score:4, Funny)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B-ekl_cEWk [youtube.com]
There's a classic.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Hey! They got games for Mac too... (Score:5, Insightful)
A common error people make is to compare the sales of console games for EVERY console platform to PC game sales.
When you compare PC game sales to individual consoles, the PC sells more games than the 360, PS3, or Wii. Halo 3 might be an exception, but that's a blip, a temporary boost that doesn't happen every week.
So of the four platforms, the PC is on top. How, then, is PC gaming dying if it's the leading platform?
Re: (Score:2)
Party games for PC? (Score:2)
When you compare PC game sales to individual consoles, the PC sells more games than the 360, PS3, or Wii.
But how many games that can use more than one USB gamepad per machine come out for Windows, Xbox 360, PLAYSTATION 3, or Wii platforms? I'd imagine that the majority of households with a gaming PC have more people than gaming PCs, except perhaps at universities. For instance, I have a PC connected to a TV, and others have PCs in arcade cabinets, and we're itching for some native games that use both joysticks.
Why every console is valid (Score:3, Insightful)
How many of your friends have got all three of current generation's consoles. Not many. Some do, but the avarage user has 1 box sitting under his TV.
:
Same question about Macs vs. Windows operated PCs.
Therefore, at the time of buying a game he hesitates between 2 option
- either buy it for his current computer.
- or buy it for the console that sits in the living room.
he's not hesitating between all
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Because on the PC a game selling 50000 copies can be considered a hit, on the console that would be considered a failure. See in the PC world you have the big hits like HL, Sims, WoWetc, and then you have lots of lttle sellers. There isn't a strong "middle class" of sales.
The console world does have a "middle class" of sales
So a game that sells 50000 copies of it's PC version and 500000 of it's console v
Re:Hey! They got games for Mac too... (Score:5, Insightful)
Personally, I think console gamers as a group are somewhat prone to fanboyism and thus are extraordinarily vocal in terms of attacking anything that isn't related to the console of their choice. The obvious attack against PC gaming is that it's "dying", even as console companies are working feverishly to turn their consoles into an almost PC-like experience with hard-drives, networked and online gaming, and improved pointing devices like the Wiimote.
To be honest, I'm not sure why so many people feel the need to slag other people's gaming systems. We're all gamers, and we all benefit from the various innovations that come from the various forms of gaming. If one of the consoles makers manages to come up with a system that provides a definitive gaming experience, I won't cling to my PC stubbornly. Conversely, if gaming on the PC offers up something that consoles simply can't supply, console gamers would do well to pay attention and applaud, rather than slag it.
Now, innovation in gaming just needs to continue until I can retire in, say thirty or forty years, having buckets of cash to spend on the new systems and all the time in the world to play!
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
And lets be honest, sales from services like Steam and Direct2Drive are rather insignificant compared to that coming from brick and mortar stores, that is if they ever actually released those numbers.
Not to mention recently you have such time vacuums like World of Warcraft that have been drying up PC gaming dollars that might go elsewhere. Consoles don't really have that problem, yet.
Re:Hey! They got games for Mac too... (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Hey! They got games for Mac too... (Score:5, Insightful)
Bioshock
World in Conflict
Medal of Honor: Airborne
Civ 4: Beyond the Sword
Supreme Commander
Crysis
DiRT
HL2: Orange Box
Call of Duty 4
I could go on and on, and the holiday season hasn't even hit yet. You could argue a couple of those are console ports, but the vast majority wouldn't even begin to work on a console.
PC Gaming dying? Uh no.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Not saying one's better than the other, just saying I liked to the TrueNuff.com video because arguably it was "first".
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
what was really funny, however, was the one mac supporter who used someone else's work than cut in to try to defend why Apples are better for gaming.
In short, he said
1) Consoles are "teh" better for gaming than PCs!
2) only kiddies who know nothing about computers use PCs for games!
3) Mac's Hardware is up to par! really it is.
I have no doubt that Mac's hardware cant run most games on the market, considering that all of the hardware - or close to it- is the same
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
The first important thing was: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:The first important thing was: (Score:5, Informative)
Re:The first important thing was: (Score:5, Informative)
Re:The first important thing was: (Score:4, Informative)
This is a problem with Apple's mouse, not with the OS, since the OS can use any old logitech mouse quite happily. This is what I do.
Re: (Score:2)
Can't play World of Warcraft with Mighty Mouse (Score:3, Interesting)
(Yes, you can walk with the keyboard too.)
Re:The first important thing was: (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Agreed (Score:4, Interesting)
Of course, the same could be said for Linux. If the "bigs" showed up on Linux, I'd be dumping my Windows desktop, too.
Bottom line: first non-Windows OS with decent, supported, modern gaming and I'm off to the races.
I have a feeling that Shuttleworth isn't as silly as the Mac folks on this issue, wouldn't be surprised if he's had the same meeting, too.
Re: (Score:2)
Don't hold your breath. There are multiple issues that will keep most games from every being made for the Mac or Linux:
1. DirectX/Direct3D is a really nice API for making games. And MS supports it with nice development tools.
2. The market for Mac and Linux games is incredibly tiny, and it's just not worth creating new versions (meaning, using an API other than DirectX) of a game for those platforms.
3. Most imp
Re: (Score:2)
I see this fallacy spouted a lot, typically by console fanbois.. have anything to back this specious argument up?
Last time i checked the PC had 3 row dedicated to
Re: (Score:2)
I'm a games programmer, so I have to ask. How is DirectX/Direct3D better than SDL/OpenGL?
-:sigma.SB
Apple needs better hardware for gameing... (Score:2)
The I macs have weak video cards and the only way to get a faster cpu is to get a bigger screen that puts even more load on the GPU.
The mini is over priced and under powered.
Re: (Score:2)
Yes and no. (Score:2)
I think Apple as a whole is too distracted by trying to do too many things at once. You know that the iPhone had to take a lot of focus to pull off. Yes while they talk about increasing Mac marketshare I don't think its their bread and butter anymore and probably no where near the direction they will go an
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
People need to be more specific - its not that the Mac is unsuitable for games, its unsuitable for high-performance 3D games - mostly first-person shooters - used by people who would get beaten up at LAN parties if their rig couldn't pull 60fps at 1800x1200 in the latest game with all the quality options set to 11 - and I
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Most of the pro players set the graphics down as far as possible to see their opponents easier.
modern mac hardware is fine for most games, and they could sell higher end systems for those who wanted more eye candy, it's not like mac users are known for paying less for systems.
I have a few friends who use macs, they play WoW extensively and would love
Other points from the article: (Score:5, Insightful)
So [Team Fortress 2] tends to accommodate a wider variety of play styles than say Counter-Strike. I mean Counter-Strike is very clear; there's not a lot of variety in that, whereas there's a huge difference between the tactical thinking that an engineer does managing resources versus say the approach that the sniper has playing in that game. So really it's much more accommodating to a wider range of play styles than any game out there.
This is exactly why I haven't played CS for 2 or 3 years, but I've been playing TF2 every night this week. In CS, or Halo, or just about any other multiplayer first person shooter, if you're not good at shooting people in the head, you're not good at the game. But in TF2, there are so many ways to play the game that everyone's bound to be good at something once they find their niche. While I still suck at playing a soldier or sniper in TF2, I'll often find myself at the top of the list when I'm playing as a Medic or Engineer.
The other unique thing about TF2 is the variety of cooperation that it requires. In Halo and CS, sticking together is just about the only required teamwork. In TF2 the level of class specialization demands an incredibly diverse range of cooperation. Switching the balance of power is often as easy (or hard) as finding a combination of classes that can defeat whatever strategy happens to be working for the enemy.
In some ways, the cooperation in TF2 reminds me more of World of Warcraft than any other First Person Shooter.
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah, nothing to do with control of the map and power weapons.
Rest of your points are well made, however.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
You're right, but what makes TF2 different than, say, Return to Castle Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory or the Battlefield series of games? Those all had class-based play, also... and it doesn't look like TF2 is offering anything new here.
TF2 isn't really offering anything new here. What it is offering is possibly the most polished, well-balanced, and thoroughly enjoyable example of the genre. It's similar to Blizzard's strategy with WoW: people have bitched non-stop that WoW isn't innovative, but the game is so successful because it dropped most of the annoying crap and polished the remainder to a high shine. TF2 does precisely the same thing for team-based shooters. I've been playing shooters since Wolfenstein 3D and I'm a huge fan of
Re: (Score:2)
You lost all interest in a game because they give the winners 10 seconds to have some fun before the next round starts? This is the equivilant of not wanting to drive a race car because they allow the winner of the race a victory lap. It doesn't ruin the game. All it is is a special moment/reward for the victors. Besid
Re: (Score:2)
I lost all interest the second I watched a gameplay vid where the losing team becomes unable to attack before the next round starts, allowing the winning team to frag them without resistance. DoD did the same thing, and it's one of the reasons why I don't play it anymore. I'll maybe try TF2 when Valve stops annoying the player for shits and giggles. TF2 could have been a good game but this is more than enough to convince me that Fortress Forever is the way to go.
Fair enough, although I'm curious as to why this bothers you so much. If, as you state, you don't care about losing, then why is it such a game-killer? I suppose one could view it as Valve deliberately being juvenile, but in all fairness the free-frags fit quite well into the sense of humour that permeates the game. I was roaring with laughter the other evening as the last surviving member of my team during free-frag (we lost, obviously) was a scout, squeaking "don't kill me! don't kill me!" over voice
I'd buy a Mac if it was the best for gaming (Score:2, Insightful)
After all, no gamer goes.. oohh I want a Dell XPS. No, they say, oohh I want a quad core Kentsfield and a 8800 GTX SLI blah blah blah.
Apple just doesn't have the insight or ability to take Mac gaming BEYOND PC ga
Re: (Score:2)
Apple would be stupid if they see gamers as a few percentage points. I see gamers being the 80/20 of hardware sales. Gamers easily buy the most new cutting edge hardware of anyone running the desktop even if their numbers in the overall desktop community is a minority.
If Apple prides itself on producing high end syste
Re: (Score:2)
Apple would be stupid if they see gamers as a few percentage points. I see gamers being the 80/20 of hardware sales.
I wasn't implying that gamers aren't a huge percentage but to Apple they're worthless because they can't do anything for them except be worse than or just the same as PC gaming.
Apple can't just match PC gaming, they would have to actually outperform the PC market if they expect gamers to switch on that standpoint alone. Your typical gamer isn't going to switch to OS X just to get the exact same performance they could with Windows, with fewer games, higher cost and more effort. It would only matter if th
Problem is (Score:2)
As you work down the Apple range comparing prices, the XPS will generally have (or have the option of having) better GPU grunt under the hood.
Problem as I see it is that Apple != Games. Nobody buys a Mac to play games, therefore there's no need to bot the price/cut margin putting in a fa
Turnover rate? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Sounds like whining (Score:2, Insightful)
Other game companies have made games for Apple no problem: ID, EA, Blizzard, etc. The difference is they accept that they have to go with OpenGL. Some of them are fairly recent ones too. Apple has even made 1-2 updates that include fixes for a game, so they "care." I've always seen it as an effort vs reward type of thing: a bun
Re: (Score:2)
http://forums.appleinsider.com/archive/index.php/t-18299.html [appleinsider.com]
Bastards !!!
[1] No network play with PCs, PC mods wouldn't work, this is why Sierra died.
Re: (Score:2)
1) The factual accuracy here is questionable. This is 5 years old. Right after, somebody claimed that HL2 was "100%" coming to Mac because he "knew a guy" who worked at Valve as a mapper.
2) According to the forum posts, Sierra cancelled the project, not Valve
3) It would have run in software mode, most likely, since I don't recall Macs having dedicated 3D hardware back then. Half-Life limited to software mode isn't worth having at all. It made sense when HL1 was initially released to include a s
Re: (Score:2)
Late 1998 or early 1999 was when Macs started coming with 3D hardware by default, IIRC. And there was third-party 3D hardware for the Mac long before then (not that I would know).
-:sigma.SB
Specifics? (Score:2, Flamebait)
Re: (Score:2)
I'm a Mac user, and also an indie game developer. I love OSX, but I develop exclusively on Windows. Why? Because DirectX is a million times the lib that OpenGL is. I know open source advocates don't like hearing it - but look, object-oriented (I don't care what you say, a C API falls apart at that level of complexity), well supported by a massive developer base, and well maintained, and not afflicted with proprietary-video-card-extensions-itis.
In short, OpenGL works, and it works well, but it's also a maj
Re: (Score:2)
1) DirectX does a bit more for you (built in vector and matrix classes, for example)
2) It looks butt fugly - but maybe that's just me, I hate hungarian and microsoft's naming conventions in general
Really, so little of a game is the graphics code, though, and any decent game dev is going to be using their own wrapper classes anyway.
The problems are more that you can get acc
Re: (Score:2)
Um, no. the minimum requirements for all of Valve lineup is quite low.. they even do surveys every 6 months or so to see what the majority of users are running and develop a level below that.
Of course they do support higher end setups but this is n
So what where the three issues? (Score:2)
what three things??? (Score:2)
How about a few details? How about coming out and saying what it is that the Macs are missing?
- Is it "Direct X"? (cause that isn't going to happen)
- Is it better graphics cards? (they are the
Re:What Apple needs (Score:5, Interesting)
What about the original XBox? That was basically the same architecture as a PC, but optimized for games.
Re:What Apple needs (Score:4, Insightful)
But the GP is talking nonsense. Shell out five grand for a XPS or Blackbird and you're buying a gaming PC, full stop. The Amiga was no more "optimized for games" than a Mac (to get back on topic)
Re: (Score:2)
BS. The Amiga was "optimized for games" in the same way my Wii/PS2/whatever is ... it was a fixed HW spec. Games "just worked" on the Amiga, this has never been the case with the win32/PC and at this point I doubt it never will be. DirectX brought it out of the complete disaster area it was previous to that, but MS are well aware that their biggest problem is 3rd party drivers for video ... and Linux is going to fix this problem before they are.
Amusingly Apple would have the best chance of doing this w
Re: (Score:2)
The XBox could have been the same, save for Microsoft's shortsightedness. It was a fairly powerful PC with DVD support and a hard drive. As the Linux on XBox project shows, its a platform capable of far more than gaming.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
It'd be nice if they let people freely mod the things once it was fully EOL'd in a few years, but that isn't really germane to the product strategy.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
By contrast, the company that 'gets it' about everything else doesn't seem to see any worth in trying to make their platform more g
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Does it? If one thing Apple works hard for, it's a good user experience. They charge more for hardware of moderate performance. They WANT customer loyalty.
Gamers by contrast love to upgrade video cards and screw with bios settings. Gamers also have NO loyalty. They'll drop anyone to go to a next big thing in performance and gaming. The PC world there are plenty of vendors competing in all spaces. Who is Apple going to compete against? Apple? The entire chasing gamers trail of tho
Re: (Score:2)
Can you find a machine compentant at gaming for the same price as the $1399.99 iMac? (this it the $1499.99 model, with educational pricing).
It's got a Radeon HD2600 Pro as default, so I won't accept anything less than that. I know that's not a great video card, but its a heck of a lot better (2x as fast) as a Geforce 8500,
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
You could make a very strong case that the Mac could be an ideal gaming platform since they utilize a limited number of configurations-- it's a closer analog to a console than to a Windows PC that way. /That's/ why it boggles the mind.
There're different kinds of gamers, and those that hack around with their boxes/upgrade the hardware themselves are not the only ones that drive the gaming market. Given that 'l33t rig' warehouses seem to be doing fine, it seems clear that there're even hardcore g
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Eh? Where have you been during all of the PS/XBox/Wii/Cube/PSP/DS/Cedega SUX Wine is good enough/ flame wars? And besides, look at all the consoles I just mentioned, no bios to tweak, no video card to swap out. The group you reference are the ultra hardcore types. For every copy of Bioshock sold there were four copies of Sims 1/2. This isn't current [wikipedia.org] but if start to add the tweakers up, they aren't that big a bunch. All would take is a little initiative on Apples part and they
Re: (Score:2)
I think this is a great stance for apple to take.. "if you can't do what you love on a mac, fuck you we don't care for your business".
If a "gamer" can't show blind loyalty like yours to a platform then why try to develop for them.. they obviously have their priorities backwards.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
The main obstacle to gaming on the Windows platform is Windows - that is, the amount of memory the operating system soaks up just for being around. There, however, you can just slap on some more memory and you're good to go.
But with Macs, I understand that from a game programmer's perspective, the graphics APIs just aren't as good as DirectX. Can't fix that with a few RAM sticks. I've got my Mac computer dual-booting, so I'd know! Also, they don't sell a box that is really in that "gamer" niche. The top-e
Re: (Score:2)
Maybe if Joe Sixpack wasn't buying the Best Buy 499.95 special and expecting it to play the latest games...
For the most part the only time I hear complaints out of Windows gamers is the ones that don't have enough cash to buy their own gear and have to live off of mommy and daddy's ha
Re: (Score:2)
I guess that's true if you see every reply to your post as an argument.
Re: (Score:2)
Really? On
Hmm, I guess the 4 or 5 gaming rigs I've had in the past decade didn't really exist then. All of which smoked any console gaming system of the time by far...nevermind. Why am I responding to blatant flamebait anyways...oh yeah, +4 insightful.
Sheesh, someone fix that please!
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Game companies are going to continue to develop for PC because that is where the m
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
the primary problem here is that we have no idea what was asked for. if Valve told Apple "give us DirectX", it's no wonder they were ignored. same problem with your step 3. without know what was asked for, we have no way of knowing whether anything was done.
the problem here - and it's one Newell has as well
Re:Yep. No games. (Score:5, Informative)
Apple's historically always been like this, though. Even classic games like Prince of Persia, Uninvited, or even Myst were done with no support or promotion whatsoever from Apple.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
He's not saying "Macs can run games,
I assume you mean that he's not saying "Macs can't run games."
But yes, he's not saying that. He's saying that Apple isn't helping game developers. Worse even, he's saying that Apple is openly soliciting game developers to spend time to give Apple information on how to help game developers, and then not acting on any of that information.
I don't see any reason to disbelieve him. As an Apple customer, I hope that Apple changes this behavior and starts pursuing game de
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Erm.. What?
Mac Games Release Calendar: http://www.amazon.com/Mac-Games/b?ie=UTF8&node=229647 [amazon.com]
PC Games Release Calendar: http://www.amazon.com/PC-Games/b?ie=UTF8&node=229575 [amazon.com]
Notice the 'more' links on the PC list. There are single days where the PC will see more mainstream games released then the Mac will see for the rest of the year. Also notice those mac games.. they aren't exactly f
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
You've got my attention, but have you got any examples?
Re: (Score:2)
If it actually worked, I'd move to linux extremely quick.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)