Target May Discontinue Manhunt 2 Sales

Ars Technica's Opposable Thumbs blog is reporting that retail giant Target may be pulling Rockstar's Manhunt 2 from store shelves and their online storefront. "This could be an interesting case: there is no content in Manhunt 2 that goes above and beyond what we've seen in other M-rated games without the extensive hacks needed to unlock the more graphic content. If Target wasn't seeing high sales of the game though, it wouldn't hurt the company financially to pull the game, and it gets to look family-friendly. From a public relations standpoint that's a win-win situation. My question remains: would Target be as quick to pull the game if it were a runaway success? " GamePoltics has up a discussion of the issues surrounding this move, with commentary from analyst Michael Pachter.

No Big Deal

[Fozzyuw]

Target is a big box retail often found in the same cities as Wal-Mart, Best Buy, ShopKo, etc. and games stores like GameStop/EBGames, etc. No big deal if they pull them. Consumers will just walk next-door and pick it up. Now, if Wal-Mart pulled it, that would be something because a LOT of those other stores will follow Wal-Marts lead when they do things.

It's just more copies for the stores that are selling them.

Cheers,
Fozzy

Re:

[shlepp]

I thought Wal-Mart censored all the stuff they sell, Movies, CD's and Games? I don't shop at Wal-Mart, last CD i baught from a Wal-Mart was a Rancid album and it was full of censoring..

Producers, not WalMart

[PadRacerExtreme]

since they'll edit the profanity out of an Eminem CD but then sell Pulp Fiction or South Park right next to it.

I don't believe WalMart does the editing. The record producers create a 'clean' version and an 'explicit' version (look on Amazon, they sell both version). WalMart is choosing to only sell the 'clean' versions.

However, in the movie world, there is only one version, the 'explicit' version. I recall about a year ago a couple of companies that were doing the editing for parents (buy the movie, send it to them, they send you back a clean version), but I can't find a link to any of them right now. And I

Re:

[Walpurgiss]

I doubt the record companies would expend the effort to produce the clean edits of the CDs if WalMart did not refuse to sell the originals though.

It has to cost a lot of money to make clean edits, but it must cost a lot more to have zero record sales at WalMart.

Costwise, it makes zero sense to produce clean edits yourself just to do so unless compelled to for a reason like WalMart refusing to sell explicit lyrics. Radio is really the only other venue that would be interested in such a thing, but they

Re:

[nharmon]

They already expend the effort to product the clean edits for radio play. Compiling them into a CD costs nothing.

Re:

[SatanicPuppy]

That's only true for the tracks they think you'll play on the radio. Very seldom do studios release an entire album that has been sanitized; if some song gets big that was unexpected, the radio station will censor it themselves using whatever editing tools they have on hand.

Re:

[Applekid]

Not all tracks are released for radio play. Each album typically yields one or two strong singles that get cleaned and trimmed for radio. Not only do remaining tracks would have to be similarly edited, radio edits also might trim spill-over from the prior song, extend the post so dj's to talk on top of the intro, and shorten to better hit the 2:30 sweet spot.

Cleaning language is a primary goal of the radio edit, sure, but they take the opportunity to do more tricks.

Re:

[edwdig]

Radio edits are only done for the singles, which is at most 3 or 4 songs off the CD. Obviously the first single is known before release, but often the follow up singles aren't chosen until later on.

Basic cable

[tepples]

They already expend the effort to product the clean edits for radio play. Compiling them into a CD costs nothing.

They already expend the effort to product the clean edits for basic cable and free-to-air TV play. Compiling them into a DVD costs nothing.

Re:

[dosius]

I know someone who asks me to tape (well, dvdcap) movies off WUTV all the time because they don't watermark. (Being free-to-air they of course show edited movies.)

-uso.

Re:

[JCSoRocks]

Producers do the editing. The same "clean" version you get from Wal-Mart is the same thing you hear on the radio. Ever heard a DMX song on the radio? Every other word has to be censored, it's hilarious. But it's done using sound effects and such. However, there are also other artists / producers that will just create a "clean" (radio edit) version of the song. Replacing "bitch" with "girl" or "ass" with "thang", whatever it takes to get it played on as many stations as possible. Sometimes singles even inclu

Re:

[dintech]

I can guarantee you that no artist would want the likes of Wal-Mart doing their editing for them.

I bet that any musician who views their work as actual art would wouldn't allow editing of their songs at all. Surely to allow that would mean that the edited part was unnecessary to the work in question and that couldn't be, right? But wait, actually it's just manufactured garbage...

Re:

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Producers do the editing. The same "clean" version you get from Wal-Mart is the same thing you hear on the radio. Ever heard a DMX song on the radio? Every other word has to be censored, it's hilarious. But it's done using sound effects and such. However, there are also other artists / producers that will just create a "clean" (radio edit) version of the song. Replacing "bitch" with "girl" or "ass" with "thang", whatever it takes to get it played on as many stations as possible. Sometimes singles even include both the original and the radio edit. Probably for DJ types who may need to occasionally play the "clean" version of the song. (Right, like telling a girl to rub her "thang" on you instead of her "ass" is soooo much more PG). At any rate, I can guarantee you that no artist would want the likes of Wal-Mart doing their editing for them.

What's weird is Wal-Mart also carries DVDs of the show Oz. I'd love to see the look on a Soccer Mom's face when she realizes that's not a TV series starring Dorothy and Toto.

Re:

[OldeTimeGeek]

ClearPlay [clearplay.com] sells players that filters out violence/sex/whatever parents don't want their kids to see and GoodMoviesOnline [goodmoviesonline.com] (and others) take copies of movies and returns back a copy that's PG.

As an artist, I'd sue

[Opportunist]

If you don't want to view or hear my art the way I envision it, don't consume it at all. How is this kind of content altering different from applying a crack to computer games? How can one be legal and the other be illegal?

Re:

[OldeTimeGeek]

I absolutely agree with you. Unfortunately it appears that enough people want the bowdlerized [wiktionary.org] version that there is a large market for it.

I seem to remember that the folks that bring you the expurgated versions say that they aren't modifying the original in any way, which is why they don't get hammered with the DMCA or any of the other copyright acts, but it seems a minor difference to me...

Re:

[Some_Llama]

Why don't they sell both types tho, so people like me can buy the uncensored version?

Something about hearing "old school" instead of "fuck you" in a rage against the machine lyric makes the song feel comical and not rebellious.

Re:

[Opportunist]

So? Does a crack modify the original? If it can, I'd love to see it, it would be the proof that a DVD-ROM can write to an original disc.

Re:

[Mr_Tricorder]

I work for Target, and we sell a DVD player that will edit explicit content out of movies for you. It's called Clearplay, and you have to subscribe to their site to use the filtering technology. You just download the Clearplay filter library to a flash drive and plug it into the Clearplay DVD player, and it will use the library to determine what content should be filtered out of whatever DVD you're watching.

Re:

[Tridus]

You know that based on what? A game like that might sell well to parents of little kids. The "casual" gaming market is actually pretty big, and a lot of it is on the PC. It just doesn't garner much press.

Far as I can tell, pretty much nobody is actually playing Manhunt 2.

Re:

[MBGMorden]

Indeed. If IIRC, the video game withe most copies ever sold is: Deer Hunter. A bargain bin queen sold mostly at Wal-mart.

Now, personally, I actually do hunt deer in real life, but the GAME was stupid. You click, get into the game, and these huge deer walk up to you within seconds (in game you'd never go more than 3 minutes without a monster buck walking up. IRL, it's not uncommon to go days without seeing ANY deer, and those huge trophy bucks are a once a decade thing, assuming you're not just paying some

Re:

[mpathetiq]

[I]t's not uncommon to go days without seeing ANY deer...

Would you really want to sit staring at a monitor for days on end when playing a GAME?

This thing sold in DROVES because it was a) cheap, b) easy, and c) didn't require any time investment.

Sounds like a perfect casual game to me!

Re:

[Fez]

Would you really want to sit staring at a monitor for days on end when playing a GAME?

Not for me, but judging by the number of WoW addicts, I'd say that is a "yes" for a fair number of gamers.

Re:

[mpathetiq]

I suppose I should have clarified... "Would you really want to sit staring at a monitor for days on end without any action when playing a GAME?"

Re:

[MBGMorden]

Would you really want to sit staring at a monitor for days on end when playing a GAME?

It's not that such a thing should be implemented, it's that everything that makes hunting enjoyable doesn't translate into a game very well. It's the simple, repetitive, and completely unchallenging nature that is stupid to me. Pick any other game genre like puzzle games or something, and there are goals (however trivial), and a progressive level of difficulty. Deer Hunter to me is like playing Tetris with only square blocks. Sure you win all the time, but that isn't accomplishing much.

Square blocks

[tepples]

Pick any other game genre like puzzle games or something, and there are goals (however trivial), and a progressive level of difficulty. Deer Hunter to me is like playing Tetris with only square blocks.

All the blocks in Tetris [youtube.com] are square. Would you rather play with round blocks [wikipedia.org] or hexagonal blocks [hextris.com]?

Re:

[aichpvee]

I definitely prefer round blocks [logiqx.com].

Not here...

[tkrotchko]

"IRL, it's not uncommon to go days without seeing ANY deer"

Come to my back and front yard. I guarantee you'll see 20-30 a day. They're a pestilence in the northeast.

Re:

[MBGMorden]

I can see them that frequently here at night on the highways, but catching them in the daylight hours when you're allowed to shoot is what's hard for me. I also live in the Southeast (South Carolina specifically), where our forests are THICK. You can't see more than 50-60 yards from most deer stands I hunt, so if they're hanging out at 200-300 yards where in a lot of places people would be taking a shot already, I can't even see them :). Only exception is when I hunt in tracts cleared for power lines. In

Re:

[tepples]

Indeed. If IIRC, the video game withe most copies ever sold is: Deer Hunter.

Citation needed. Did it sell more than 8 million (Half-Life), or more than 16 million (The Sims) [tmcnet.com]? Did it sell more than 33 million (Tetris for Game Boy)?

Re:

[Austerity Empowers]

You'll buy your daughter a "Barbie goes to the mall" game on a whim, whether she wants it or not, and not worry about it much. You'd buy manhunt 2 for your child only if asked.

I think it's a pretty plausible explanation. Effectively this is just buying karma for when you need it later (like Manhunt 3, which everyone wants, and features full body degloving!).

Woohoo! Forbidden Fruit!

[erroneus]

That'll just make people want their game all the more! Thanks Target!!!

Re:

[techpawn]

If it's marked that only 17+ can buy and should play it because of stated reasons (I believe that's the target for M rated games). Unless it's just sitting and collecting dust what good reason does a company have for pulling it off their shelves.

These are the same people who sell the "Unrated" version of movies to teenagers without a second thought but because video games are the hot button for "Think of the children" THAT'S what gets attention.

"Games are for kids"

[Opportunist]

That's what's still in the heads of many adults. Most games were actually played by minors until about ten or twenty years ago. But those gamers grew up and they stayed with it, and they want to play something other than Teletubbies in Lalaland.

I'm honestly surprised the thinkofthechildren crowd didn't discover Anime yet. Considering that "cartoons are for kids" is another stereotype hard to combat, and that many Anime cover subjects that are even by my standards not suitable for kids. And I'm not even tal

Re:

[techpawn]

I'm honestly surprised the thinkofthechildren crowd didn't discover Anime yet.

PLEASE! Don't give them any ideas...

Re:

[KDR_11k]

Give them Felidae [imdb.com], bad enough. Traumatized my sister. It has cartoon cats slicing each other's guts open and ripping the entrails out. What a joy for 5 year olds...

Re:

[westlake]

That'll just make people want their game all the more! Thanks Target!!!

More likely, the game will never be missed, as buyers are drawn to games like Bioshock - intelligent, suspenseful and the perfect compliment for the XBox 360 and HDTV.

Looks like ...

[ThirdPrize]

there is such a thing as bad publicity.

Re:

[Some_Llama]

"there is such a thing as bad publicity."

Tell that to Hitler. (or should i say Joseph Goebbels?)

I think I speak for the majority....

[Borealis]

I think I speak for the majority of gamers when I say "Who gives a rat's ass?"

I mean seriously, when the major marketing point of a game is whether it's banned, not the graphics, gameplay, and technical merit, one has to wonder whether anybody besides Jack Thompson is ever going to bother with the game.

Can we stop talking about this lame and pathetic excuse for a game now? Violence as part of a game is shiny. Crappy games that use it to sell instead of actually being decent suck, let's move on.

Re:

[superbus1929]

Who was the nimrod that modded this down? This guy nailed it perfectly; most gamers out there don't give a crap about this game (no numbers yet, but I'm betting it's not selling well, despite the publicity and decent reviews), it's really just an average game if you don't count the gore, and if you want gore, there's better alternatives.

Re:

[Opportunist]

The fun part is that the only ones who actually give a rat's ass are media hype agencies who want to make the frontpage, thinkofthechildren activists who would love to regulate everyone's life to bubblewrap our kids and people without a purpose in life who try to find something sensible to do. And of course people like Jack who're all that rolled into one.

Has anyone ever heard a gamer talk about it? Good or bad? Anything? Anyone here who cares? I mean, about the game, not the issue of freedom of speech.

Re:

[mdwh2]

If you don't like it, don't buy it. But people are bothered because of attempts at censorship.

Here in the UK it is not even legal for me as an adult to buy the game. Normally I wouldn't give a "rat's ass" about this type of game, but I do give a rat's ass that a nanny state decides to tell me what I can and can't play.

Crappy games that use it to sell instead of actually being decent suck, let's move on.

Given the trouble it's having being sold in stores, or even at all in some countries, I hardly think it's

Re:

[Borealis]

In the UK it is heinous that you are not able to buy it, because that is dictated by your government. Government has no business telling you what games you can and cannot play, and I fully sympathize. In the United States however, this is not a matter of government interference, it is Target deciding not to carry it. Given the absolute lack of merit to anybody I think that's probably good sense. The only option we could have to remedy this solution would be to force retailers to carry all games, regardl

Re:

[ClamIAm]

Well, as a Minnesotan, it certainly gives me a good subject for a snarky editorial I can send to the Strib, e.g.: "It's disappointing that Target, one of Minnesota's most visible corporations, feels it must censor the artistic medium of electronic games just to win some 'think of the children' points" ...you get the idea ;)

Re:

[Borealis]

Technically they aren't censoring, they are simply deciding not to sell it. Since they are not a government agency, this is entirely within their rights. You, of course, are free to point out that it is entirely the right of the shopping public to protest this. Honestly though, while I share a disdain for censorship, I feel that this is not the fight to make a stand for requiring retailers to stock lemons. Target could just as easily have decided not to sell Bioshock, a game that allows you to kill litt

Re:

[ClamIAm]

Technically they aren't censoring

This is a matter of debate... it depends on your political/economic philosophy. :)

If the game sucks, don't sell it.

[xxxJonBoyxxx]

Another week, another "Manhunt is, like, so XTREEM" article, eh? Someone in their PR department is due for a promotion.

Would Target be as quick to pull the game if it were a runaway success?

No. (Kind of a silly question, isn't it.)

Players think the game sucks: they aren't falling for the enormous "carnage to the limit is cool" marketing campaign that's been going on here on Slashdot and elsewhere for six months. If anyone wanted it, the game would earn its shelf space. But...they don't, so buh-bye.

Of course not...

[analog_line]

My question remains: would Target be as quick to pull the game if it were a runaway success?

Of course not. That doesn't mean they wouldn't end up doing it in any case. See also: Don Imus' aborted radio career. It took an awful lot of pressure to bring him down, with all his political influence and the extreme financial rewards he reaped for his bosses. Manhunt and Take 2 have little to no political influence, and if their products aren't a financial success, who's going to be hurt if Target takes them off the shelves and sells them at firesale through another venue, maybe even eBay.

Re:

[plague3106]

Well you should be happy to know that Imus is due back on the air next month. Of course he shouldn't have been fired anyway... especially not in the middle of doing a fundrasing event for charity.

Re:

[analog_line]

I'm not particularly happy or unhappy about Imus' return. I didn't listen to him, nor care that he got fired. He's rich enough to take care of himself, and apparently he has.

I just used him as an example.

Re:

[plague3106]

I didn't listen to him either, but I did care about why he was fired, because its part of a distrubing trend of citizens trying to censor each other.

Re:

[killjoy966]

See also: Don Imus' aborted radio career.

The Biggest News Talk Radio Station in America Just Got Bigger! [wabcradio.com]
Shock Jock Don Imus Returns to Airwaves [google.com]

If I were you, I'd get my money back from the clinic.

Re:

[brkello]

Imus was removed because he wasn't bringing in money anymore. It had nothing to do with pressure on his bosses, it had to do with the pressure on the advertisers. They pulled their ads from the show, the show wasn't making money, so they canceled the show. It really has nothing to do with political and everything to do with financial. That being said, Imus will be back in a few months.

Of course, I agree with your initial sentiment that Target would not pull something that was highly profitable.

The hypocracy (Irony maybe?)

[BrianRoach]

Walk into Target.
Buy "Unrated" versions of Horror/Slasher movies on DVD.

Because, you know ... those are perfectly fine. Those Evil Video Games, on the other hand ... ::sigh::

- Roach

The game is too violent.

[Turn-X Alphonse]

Me and a friend were discussing this the other day and decided that we liked the concept of the original manhunt, but the game was just too violent to be worth playing. If the game involves violence but has another focus (Tenchu comes to mind, it's a very similar game style) then the violent is acceptable, it's there as a means to an end and fits the setting, but when that flows backwards (The game is the violence not the violence is part of the game) it just loses all interest to both of us.

We're both 21, both been avid gamers since we were kids and both play games ranging from Mario to GTA:SA to Silent Hill, we're not the type of people to be overly conservative and avoid a game based on religious content or violence, but we expect a game to use these mediums and others in a way which enhances the game, rather than steals focus from it. If Manhunt was a good stealth game which just happens to be realistic in it's violence to the point of being uncomfortable we both would have picked it up, but being a violence game with a bit of stealth just makes it appeal to children (12-16 year olds) rather than appeal to the exact audience they claim to be aiming for.

These manhunt stories seem like iPhone stories to me now. The hype is feeding the hype rather than the product. The iPhone was on Slashdot daily, it was going to spawn undead and be the new hot drug on the street, instead it just faded into the mists and rarely gets mentioned any more, the hype is no longer needed and the content of the product just isn't enough to stand on it's own two feet. That's how I feel Manhunt is going, it's unlikely we will see a third, or they will attempt to be even more extreme by which time the crowd will have gone "bored of you beating nurses to death with a fetus, I'm off thanks" and it won't get hype or sales.

Re:

[killjoy966]

The iPhone was on Slashdot daily, it was going to spawn undead and be the new hot drug on the street, instead it just faded into the mists and rarely gets mentioned any more, the hype is no longer needed and the content of the product just isn't enough to stand on it's own two feet.

Although it may not be daily, it seems [slashdot.org] the iPhone [slashdot.org] still [slashdot.org] gets [slashdot.org] plenty [slashdot.org] of play [slashdot.org] on Slashdot [slashdot.org].

Good or bad, publicity is still publicity.

Re:

[ToasterMonkey]

The iPhone was on Slashdot daily, it was going to spawn undead and be the new hot drug on the street, instead it just faded into the mists and rarely gets mentioned any more, the hype is no longer needed and the content of the product just isn't enough to stand on it's own two feet.

Emphasis my own.

You're gauging this solely based on Slashdot article submissions? I think you may have slipped up and meant Manhunt in there at the end, but...
Using that guideline, can you tell me which US presidential candidates are hot now, other than "BUSH SUCKS"?

Slashdot presents an awfully warped view of the world if it's the only place you get your news err.. opinions from.

Re:

[Turn-X Alphonse]

I'm from the UK, I do not follow American politics, so no I could not, sorry. :)

Re:

[mdwh2]

The difference is, we can legally go out and buy an iPhone. Hype means nothing when we can't buy it (here in the UK).

Simple Solution

[Tsu-na-mi]

If they don't want to carry MH2, don't give them GTA4 (or any GTA titles) either.

Re:

[xero314]

Yeah that will work. A Company with 1 billion (and falling) in annual revenue attempting to threaten a company with just shy of 60 billion (and rising) in annual revenue. I'm sure that the company that has been around since 1902 and is in direct competition with the worlds largest retailer is going to bow to the threats and demands of the 5 year old video game producer who is already on many peoples shit list for allow explicit content to remain hidden in there products. If Take Two has any brains at all t

Manhunt not that Great

[shlepp]

I played the first Manhunt for about a half hour and i didn't find it that fun or interesting. So how could Manhunt 2 be any better? I highly doubt it's decent, but i wasn't a fan of the Manhunt either, I prefer GTA.