A History of the Xbox Red Ring of Death Fiasco 230
VentureBeat has a lengthy story about the situation surrounding the Xbox 360's "Red Ring of Death." It starts with the developmental phases for the 360, looks at the marketing decisions that drove Microsoft to aim for a release ahead of the PS3, and talks with sources and engineers within Microsoft about what could have been done to prevent the problems. Quoting:
"Leading up to the launch in the fall of 2005, the number of defective units would soon grow to tens of thousands. Any other consumer electronics company would likely have postponed a launch with such low yields. But Microsoft had more money in the bank than anyone else. The decision this time would fall to Bach and Moore. The costs of launching with low yields -- where you take big losses on every product sold -- could bankrupt other companies. But Microsoft could afford to do so. Microsoft did delay the launch date from October until November. But some inside the company still believed returns would be out of control."
Dumping? Loss leader? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Have you tried Googling the word "dumping"? Because the first link explains it.
Re:Dumping? Loss leader? (Score:5, Funny)
Another alternative term to "dumping" is explained, in much greater depth, by googling "2girls1cup".
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I'd appreciate it very much if someone could please explain to me, how is it possible that one company sells something at a loss and it's called "dumping" (which you can get in trouble for, IIUC), and another company sells something at a loss and it's called a "loss leader?" Wtf?/quote
As I recall, 'dumping' is when you sell a product considerably more cheaply in one country than in another. For example: If Sony sold the PS3 in the US for $200, but the equivalent of $700 in Japan, that'd be 'dumping'.
Hopefully for both of us, my memory is correct. ;)
Re:Dumping? Loss leader? (Score:4, Interesting)
i don't think that is what's usually meant by 'dumping'.
although it does seem to primarily refer to predatory pricing in the context of international trade, it's not when you sell something cheaper in one country than in another. it's simply when a product manufactured in one country is being exported to another country at a price below cost or below the market value in its home market.
as with most forms of predatory capitalism, its legality is fuzzy and often what one nation preaches is not what it practices--particularly western nations which like to tout the virtues of "Free Market" capitalism, such as the U.S.
so if a U.S. corporation wanted to dump products on another nation, they would condemn any protectionist policies which might oppose these actions. but simultaneously, if another country wanted to dump products in the U.S. which competed with domestic industries with powerful lobbies, antidumping petitions would be filed with the Dept. of Commerce.
things like 'fair value', or the difference between 'dumping' and selling a 'loss leader', are entirely subjective. they're simply used in whatever way most benefits a given group.
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Which is why we should make a single international standard, and then sell Bill Gates into sexual slavery!
Re:Dumping? Loss leader? (Score:5, Informative)
Dumping, on the other hand, is selling at a loss so that you can drive the other company out of business and then raise the price of that same item.
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That's not how it worked at all. Microsoft wouldn't have been able to survive selling it's products at a loss for years, let alone making billions of dollars doing it. They got where they are with a combination of other questionable tactics, and targeting the most open computing platform (the IBM-compatible) with software that was "good enough". Furthermore, I don't consider XP and Vista to be outrageously priced either, unless your one of the types that thinks all software should be free.
Me without my mod points ... (Score:2)
Re:Dumping? Loss leader? (Score:5, Informative)
"A loss leader...is a product sold at a low price to stimulate other, profitable sales." --from Wikipedia [wikipedia.org]
The XBOX is a loss leader because people will buy it at its cheap price, then people will want to play the XBOX. Those people will be required to buy games. The games are high margin products. Microsoft makes both so it's all good for them. It's just like with printers and ink or razors and blades. Microsoft would be guilty of dumping the XBOX if they sold the XBOX in say Europe for 20 USD, which I don't think they do.
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It's just like with printers and ink or razors and blades.
What's the deal with the razors and blades cliche? Nowadays they typically sell the handles with a couple of blades for UK £4-6 (around US $7-11 inc. VAT/sales tax).
That's not a major ripoff, but it's not especially cheap either. I mean, the "razor" (i.e. the handle!) is just a piece of metal with some rubber grips and a plastic blade attachment. They can't cost that much to make. If they weren't generally one-off purchases, I'm sure they could make pretty decent money by selling these kits alone.
Re:Dumping? Loss leader? (Score:4, Informative)
You do realize that Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo all receive a licensing fee or percentage from every game sold, yes? While they may make more money off 1st party games, 3rd party games still bring in a nice chunk of change as well.
You also might want to check the stories of each system when they first came out. There are plenty of indicators that both X-Boxes and at least the last two PlayStations were sold at a loss, and if not a loss, then a very minimal profit margin. Nintendo is the only system maker to consistently release systems at a healthy profit. Not a loss, nor anywhere near the break-even point, but a decent enough profit that they have some very fat stacks of cash on hand.
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Uh that is just two examples. How about the SNES, NES, Genesis, GBA, DS, PS2, PS1, etc?
I think you will find that the PS3 and Xboxes are the exception and not the norm.
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"Uh that is just two examples. How about the SNES, NES, Genesis, GBA, DS, PS2, PS1, etc?"
Small nitpick: The PS2 was sold at a loss, too. The only person arguing with that is 'Gord' and his 'evidence' is highly questionable.
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The XBox's game library is absolutely miserable, and always has been.
These are by no means all exclusives, but I'd like to counter that with:
GTA4
Viva Pinata
Assassin's Creed
Bioshock
Call of Duty 4
Devil May Cry 4
F.E.A.R.
Gears of War
Final Fantasy XI
Guitar Hero/Rock Band etc.
I'm just gonna stop there.
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You know, as a PS3 owner I envy these games more than the previous ones (which are mostly multiplatform) I'd love to have these on PSN.
Re:Dumping? Loss leader? (Score:5, Interesting)
I'll explain the difference, Dumping is when a company sells a product below cost to bankrupt their competitors.
Loss leaders are when a store sells a product below what they pay to draw in consumers and get sales.
Clearly the video game industry is rife with corruption and 'Dumping' primarily because hardware makers can subsidize the price of a console with license fees from game developers.
depend on 'dumpers' like Microsoft to have some very complex bookwork, and possibly some Chinese shell corporations to sell high priced parts significantly below cost, but only to Microsoft.
there are lots of ways electronics can be sold below price, specifically cell phones and satellite TV boxes, which come with service agreements. but in the cell phone market, you're not locked into a single phone, although each cell provider has their own line of phones... most big players have models for each provider, except in cases where they get more money to be 'exclusive' to AT&T (like the iphone) etc.
some of this stuff is illegal in many places, but as i said shell corporations are shady and hard to stop. because billionaires often engage in venture capitalism, it's not hard to 'invest' in a shell corporation that's going to go into an exclusive contract to say, sell 40 million $40 dollar parts at $1 a part, and have the initial VC funding of say 40 million dollars, while 'your buddy' makes a cool million cash etc... then let the company go belly up, or keep using the same shell corporation with additional rounds of VC funding...
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doh the math gods kill me again, 40 million $40 parts is more like 1.6 billion dollars. ah well, the general concept is still there.
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If the XBox 360 was an attempt at dumping, then it was a completely failed attempt. But given that in the console market, selling the console below cost and making the money up on sales is the historically common way to do things, it's more reasonable to believe that they were selling it as a loss leader like everyone else. This is certainly the way the PS2 was sold. It was a monster hit, and yet hardly drove either Nintendo or Microsoft out of the console market.
The remarkable thing about the current ge
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Well sega has been killed off as a console manufacturer and afaict nintendo have survived only by making a sideways move (leaving the traditional "console with best graphics" game and creating what is essentially a completely new market that they dominate).
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'dumping' has a specific meaning in economics, and it refers to the practice of selling product in another country at a price far below that country's local cost. This can happen when the seller's country gives him a subsidy that lowers his costs. Tariffs are used to counteract that. A nice exa
Dumping versus loss leaders (Score:4, Interesting)
I'd appreciate it very much if someone could please explain to me, how is it possible that one company sells something at a loss and it's called "dumping" (which you can get in trouble for, IIUC), and another company sells something at a loss and it's called a "loss leader?"
Dumping [wikipedia.org] is a form of predatory pricing [wikipedia.org] under international trade law whereby a product is sold below cost or below market value in the country of origin. Economists sometimes take a more general definition of dumping to mean any kind of predatory pricing but in my experience this is a less common usage. Dumping often occurs when a producer has excess capacity beyond what their home market can absorb so they sell the excess in a different market either to damage current/potential competitors or to gain market share.
A loss leader [wikipedia.org] is basically a sales promotion. One product is sold cheaply (possibly below cost) with the expectation, but normally not the requirement, that customers will be enticed into buying additional more profitable product(s). The most famous version is the razors and blade model pioneered by Gillette.
The important difference is that a loss leader isn't necessarily destructive. With dumping there is no attempt at profitability, at least not in the short term. However predatory pricing in general, including dumping, can be very hard to prove. It's quite rare to have clear evidence that dumping is occurring. Furthermore in some countries (notably China) it's not unusual for the government to hold stakes in manufacturing firms. Naturally it is rather difficult subpoenaing records from a state owned Chinese manufacturer so you can sue them for dumping.
The cynical answer (Score:2)
It's called "dumping" when it's done by someone you dislike, and "loss leader" otherwise.
For the politically unconnected company, there are three pricing models, all predatory:
Dumping - lower than competitors
Ripping off consumers - higher than competitors
Cartel - the same as competitors
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I'd appreciate it very much if someone could please explain to me, how is it possible that one company sells something at a loss and it's called "dumping" (which you can get in trouble for, IIUC), and another company sells something at a loss and it's called a "loss leader?" Wtf? It's especially clear in this case, when you have orange rings of death and whatnot, that the purpose is to bankrupt the competition by selling yours for less. By the time someone spent their Christmas money on one product, they won't buy the other. Hence, dumping.
They're only "dumping" if their business plan doesn't indirectly profit from the sales, thus compensating for the losses in consoles.
For example, if I'm a gas station across from another gas station, and I start selling gas at $1/gallon in order to get the other gas station to fold, I'm dumping. I'm just losing money, no part of my business plan makes any money back. It's not a "loss leader" for anything else.
However, with videogame consoles, neither sony or microsoft are losing money in their videogame d
The cynical anwer (Score:2)
It's called "dumping" when it's done by someone you dislike, and "loss leader" otherwise.
For the politically unconnected company, there are three pricing models, all predatory:
Lower than competitors - Dumping
Higher than competitors - Ripping off consumers
The same as competitors - Price fixing
Re:Dumping? Loss leader? IT'S NOT SOLD (Score:2)
For starters it's not sold. If it were sold you could do what you want with it, mod it to your particular desires, run what you want on it. As it is, it's like buying a record or CD player from one of the 4 big music companies and find
Collapse? (Score:3, Interesting)
What if the company is just facing the domino effect of collapse because their engineering and management does not work anymore. It makes me depressed to observe all this. [slashdot.org] They were unable to deliver VISTA in time. Customers and hardware suppliers actually hate VISTA.
They develop a game console with gigantic losses. They develop the next game console as a second choice. Maybe something is broken in their management of development. I mean look, where is the bugzilla server for the xbox?
Do you remember the story about the lawyer's letter to the parents of the baby killed by an Xbox fire?
But this Slahsdot post finally reminds us that Microsoft was never different. When we look back there is actually a history of autism in the company but it always paid off in the past. Like Napoleon, an insane leader who did every mistake but for some time he was quite lucky.
TFA is written by nitwits (Score:2, Insightful)
The future profits that the company once hoped for are now likely to wind up in Nintendo's pockets.
Right, just like a defective Audi will drive people towards purchasing a Toyota Yaris. Nintendo and Microsoft aren't competing for the same market niche, and apparently the author doesn't realize that. The Wii is for casual gaming, the XBox and PS are for hardcore gaming. Might as well say that peggle is taking sales from Half Life 2.
The XBox360 is getting a lot of negative press, but I think they made the right call by launching early. They've been able to displace a lot of the negative press by extendi
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I wanted a PS3, but I've got about £1000 worth of PS2 games that I'm not about to give up on (my PS2 just gave up the ghost).
Having bought a cheap replacement PS2 instead of the backwards-compatible PS3 I'd have liked, I was not well disposed to Sony, so I look to the XBox-
Just too unreliable.
I now have a Wii, and love it, but would have probably been happier with a more powerful machine.
For me, both MSFT and Sony dropped the ball badly.
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I'm interested in why you didn't buy a backwards compatible PS3. Too expensive for you? Personally I held off on getting a PS3 as long as I could, wasn't till late 2007 that I began to think it was worth getting it in the near future. Then this year, my PS2 Linux kit HD started having issues, so I knew it was only a matter of time. I use mine for Linux, Oblivion, Orange Box, PS2/PS1 games and some media stuff.
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On a side-note CronoCloud- How did you play Oblivion on a PS2?
(Lastly, thank you mods for the +3, Troll above- I feel I've finally arrived)
Re:TFA is written by nitwits (Score:4, Insightful)
Utter rubbish.
While different consoles do have features that reach out to different niches there remains a huge area of market overlap in which they compete.
If the Wii didn't exist would MS have sold several million more 360s? Of course they would.
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>>>The Wii is for casual gaming, the XBox and PS are for hardcore gaming
If you define "hardcore" as "boring and overly complicated" then you hit it in one. I don't own any of these consoles, but I am leaning towards Wii because it returns gaming to its primary purpose - fun. It's like a return to the classic-era Nintendo, Sega, and Atari consoles, and it's probably the reason Wii rose to #1 worldwide.
I don't find much fun in reading esoteric manuals & memorizing complicated commands (as is of
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While the Wii and the Xbox appeal to different segments of the gaming market, it's a false dilemma to say that a gamer can't purchase both or has to choose between consoles. U
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"Nintendo and Microsoft aren't competing for the same market niche, and apparently the author doesn't realize that."
Have you taken a look at Wii Ware and Xbox Live Arcade recently?
"The Wii is for casual gaming, the XBox and PS are for hardcore gaming."
Yes, that's why Microsoft bundles their Xbox 360 with such hardcore games like Uno and Pac-Man CE, or why their memory cards come with 70-hour gems like Geometry Wars and Worms.
"The XBox360 is getting a lot of negative press, but I think they made the right ca
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During quiet moments in cut scenes and movies, my PS3 is only slightly less loud than the 360.
Interesting timing (Score:5, Insightful)
I wonder at the timing of a Xbox-critical article on the exact day the latest price cut hits, bringing the Arcade version under the price of the Wii.
The first two questions to ask about any news story:
Why am I hearing about this, and why now?
It's amazing how much is revealed by these 2 questions.
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Well, it does coincide with my personal experience of the Microsoft Red Ring of Death. My XBox 360, bought in late 2006 if I remember correctly, just died a few weeks ago and we recently got the replacement back. Adult-only home, well ventilated and treated properly.
Units will continue to die for years to come. For us owners, this problem will continue for a long time.
Most XBox 360 consoles before the recent hardware changes will die with unreasonably short lives. It's just a matter of time. It's a des
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What is revealed? (Score:2)
The only thing it reveals to me is that you are probably a conspiracy theory nutbag.
The day of such a price cut probably is a good day for a bit of a retrospective.
What would you prefer? That they only reported the price cut? I don't see why simply regurgitating a press release would be the sort of reporting we should wish for.
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PS3 is doing just as well (if not better in Europe) taking the headstart of the 360 into consideration. It'll be with us a lot longer than the 360 also - should be as long lived as the PS2 (which is still selling).
And that's considering the PS3 is still quite a bit pricier than the Xbox360 - there are plenty of folks who would like a PS3 and are still waiting for the price to come down, or will get it this Christmas coming.
I'm happy with my sole recent purchase from the console manufacturers - a Nintendo DS
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Funny, then, that it is still beating the shit out of the PS3.
Funny, but that's not what I see. Worldwide sales for the PS3 are considerably higher than for the XBox 360 at this point (source: VGChartz), and have been since the beginning of the year.
The XBox still has a lead thanks to its hasty launch, but that lead is slowly eroding. And you have to wonder: are all those broken units actually counted as new sales? I wouldn't put it past them...
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Also, while he might laugh at our decision to buy PS3 (I just got my 80GB last week) - we can sit here laughing while he is in queue turning his Xbox in, hoping he only have to wait a couple of months to get his replacement.
Oh and we get to put Linux on our box.
Proof that MS bought its way into this market (Score:5, Interesting)
We've seen it time and time again, how Microsoft can afford to buy it's way into a market segment. I wonder if it will pay off in the long run, because it seems they've hit a saturation point with this product they have. Not much growth over the last product revision, and barely making a penny in the last few quarters (let's not talk about making up for all the loses to date yet).
With the stock price stagnant, how long can upper management convince shareholders that this is the right thing to do?
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It depends on emotion. if people *think* the stock is worth the price, they'll hold it or buy.
Apple is in the same boat.
I think MS is in a precarious position. If one of their bets doesn't pay off soon (XBOX, Vista, or otherwise) I think they will have a few people to answer to.
Lowering the price seems like a desperation move, although the system HAS been out for 3 years now.
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Pass me some of the stuff you are smoking please...
Sounds a lot like what NVIDIA has happening... (Score:2)
...right now with their G84/G86 GPUs at the moment. They estimate their losses to be in the range of 100-200 million USD. Dell, HP, ACER, Lenovo, and other laptop makers are affected by this with no end, or resolution for the owners of the units containing the defective chips, including yours truly.
The failure rate has been measured in either weeks, months or years. Owners of the affected laptops have been buying extended warranties to cover replacement in the event they should fail.
Dell has acknowledged th
+1 yes I am a sony/apple fanboy. (Score:2, Insightful)
My XBOX 360 dis 4 months ago and I bought a PS3, re-purchased all 6-8 games I play (mostly FPS team games, GRAW, COD, RS).
How do I feel? I feel like using Linux: it is better than windows, but lacking stuff. PS3 is superior (like linux) but it is lacking a strong community feeling like xbox live. It is also lacking the sometimes needed, but sometimes hated strong core (assholes) who play 600 hours a month to be the best in certain games. These are the guys who sometimes hate, but the ones who give a strong
Re:+1 yes I am a sony/apple fanboy. (Score:5, Insightful)
I do not want to host family parties (nor play mario #122 or other kiddie games)
First off: Mario is not a "kiddie" game. It's a platformer, but that doesn't make it childish.
Second: Zelda, Smash Bros, Super Paper Mario, Metroid Prime 3, and Mario Kart are kiddie games? Damn, why didn't someone tell me?
Are you one of those gamers who defines "kiddie" to be "doesn't include lots of gore and/or swearing"?
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While many of these games are still fun to play, they provide a completely different gaming experience/style than the type of games the OP is talking about. So, while I like playing games on the Wii, the type of games I enjoy most are not targeted to that console.
Given a choice of a Wii or a 360/PS3, I would not select the Wii. I think that is the point he was trying to make.
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Any game that doesn't deal with adult themes or content is a kiddie game. Not that it's a bad thing.
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It's the adolescent equivalent of "family-friendly". Some gamers don't speak political-correctese.
With all the bombs, smashing stuff, abuse of turtles and evil chestnuts/mushrooms, you'd think Jack Thompson would target Nintendo instead of Rockstar Games. But then, it's done with several doses of humor and Miyamoto-style wit, so no one is offended.
Well, except the turtles. How dare he strip search them.
But the blame should be placed on whoever designed the Gamecube (black/white should've been the first colo
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I define kiddie games like this:
There are colorful cartoon-like characters in the game who collect coins which hang in the air, and you are bouncing of huge mushrooms and your enemies are evil turtles and other cartoon animals, plants and persons.
It is similar to a psychedelic dream, except is is presented in a generally bad resolution and a low but vivid color palette.
Metrois prime is the only game that made me think of getting a wii until I saw the resolution and the graphics detail, which almost surpasse
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Consoles? Useless without online play?
I'm really feeling old. I remember visiting cousins just to play SNES/N64 games with them. =/
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I remember hosting lan parties at my house. We were playing anything and everything of the few that allowed to shoot each-other.
I also remember playing Quake and Counter Strike on a 56K modem.
Then remember playing on XBOX live with a bunch of strangers. Still community feeling and good laughs.
Then I go online (with the same games) on my PS3. It is worse that driving an ATV alone in the forest/desert (actually it is not bad, just a lonely activity).....
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The point of the post was, that while the xbox is a limited hardware, the whole experience of the xbox live system is really fun (for me).
However, that POS died on my, so I am here with a $500 dismantled box and peripherals, and 10 games ($600) as a waste. And I refuse to buy a piece of hardware that already died on me once because that is just stupid. I heard of people who have 2-4 xboxes, all which died.
On the other hand I took a quick view of other options, and mentioned that the WII does not interest me
Good thing they're not getting away with it! (Score:5, Funny)
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they are losing billions and a huge portion of the population doesn't even know what RRoD is. They have seen it but don't know it has a name. They wrote off billions last year to try and make this year look good but they will probably never make a profit on the product.
And really, the Xbox has been a failure for what it was intended to do and that is hold off Sony's PlayStation. The PS2 is out selling Microsofts Xbox360 in a big way and the PS3 is now at or around even with Xbox360 quarterly numbers. There
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more money than sense (Score:5, Insightful)
For instance, it can't be that difficult to design an OS that works. Linux has done the basics, and it is free. Apple has done the GUI, with much less money than MS. Yet the best MS can do is a spend millions of dollars on pointless commercials. Is this because it has no idea how to fix the software? Is there no way to invest the 77% profit margin in making working products. Does it all have to spent on yachts.
And it is not rocket science to design a game console. We have had generations of them that worked very well. MS just jumped in and borrowed existing tech, then used the windows 77% percent profit margin to subsidize the costs. And the xBox 360 is the second generation product.
Of course, we must acknowledge that MS tried to design custom hardware, a task for which it has no experience. This leads to the question of why it couldn't just pay for someone to do it right. Oh yeah, the yachts.
People like to compare IBM to MS, and see MS slowing down, but then ultimately being successful like IBM. What people fail to realize is that IBM spent the money to make rock solid products. The Selectric was a damn near perfect machine. The big iron did their job. The IBM PC was bulletproof. I don't know how MS is going come out the other side of the desktop monopoly when Google moves all the customers to the clouds with a six nines failure rate, and MS is still living in a world where a four nines failure rate is acceptable.
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People like to compare IBM to MS, and see MS slowing down, but then ultimately being successful like IBM. What people fail to realize is that IBM spent the money to make rock solid products.
Actually, IBM went from being a hardware company to a services company. When MSFT helps you design, install and optimize competitive products like IGS does with setting up Solaris servers connecting to EMC disk arrays. Realizing that money can be made off of more than just software licensing, then they'll be successful like IBM.
Go read ex-CEO Louis Gerstner's book, it wasn't typewriters, the mainframe or PCs.
http://www.amazon.com/Who-Says-Elephants-Cant-Dance/dp/0060523808/ [amazon.com]
Great mis-statement in article (Score:5, Funny)
FTFA: "Microsoft has still sold more Xbox 360 consoles than Sony to date."
Damn, I never saw that coming!!!
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FTFA: "Microsoft has still sold more Xbox 360 consoles than Sony to date."
Damn, I never saw that coming!!!
Sony hasn't sold any Xbox 360 consoles, so that quote is correct!
It's called Hubris (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft's problem is pretty simple, hubris. It's illustrated quite well when you look at the kind of management practices taken by Ballmer and to a lesser extent Gates.
Microsoft has been so enamored of their own success that they believe that they cannot go wrong, simply because of who they are. They are also more than willing to pursue business with the kinds of principles and ethics that you'd expect from a used car salesperson. They really don't care what the customer experience is, they care about making money and believe that no matter what they do, they will succeed regardless.
Well to some extent that's true, or was true in the past, as mass and momentum are real. However it's also very clear that eventually momentum decreases and customer loyalty is a fickle thing. MS is already seeing the fruits of their poor judgement. Apple is selling more Mac's than ever, and I'd argue that Vista has played a big part in that success. I for one don't own an Xbox 360, I own a PS3. I probably won't ever buy a 360.
I'm sure Microsoft will recover, but to what extent remains to be seen. But unless they change their principles and work toward attracting the kind of loyalty through quality and connecting with your customers that Apple has enjoyed they will continue to see, if nothing else, a customer base that will be willing to jump ship at the first opportunity.
RROD (Score:2, Interesting)
I was playing Halo 3 the other night and my network connection was acting up, then the game lurched, froze and put tons of bars across the screen, followed by a loud screeching noise
so yeah, my Xbox RROD'ed on Sept 1st. I think its kind of odd that this story would pop up on /. within a week of it happening to me. I should pry call Microsoft sometime soon to get it replaced, but seeing as I'm a busy engineering student I haven't gotten around to it yet. Does anyone have any tips for dealing with Microsoft c
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That sounds kinda trite coming from an Anonymous Coward...
Nothing really new, except... (Score:5, Insightful)
I usually wait 6-12 months after a console is released before I purchase it so that I can get one with a working mod-chip from Canada. I'll be damned if Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo are going to tell me I cannot play backups. Yes, Backups. So I had nearly a year to watch this infamous shit storm start, and not become a victim.
The problems with the console were known fairly early by pretty much everyone. People talk. Kids talk even more, and most times you cannot shut them up. After about 6-8 months I myself heard about RROD constantly from people. Microsoft really "screwed the pooch" on this one and AFAIK, the losses on the returns have been at least 1.9 billion. That is a staggering number.
The only thing new about this is that there were people in Microsoft that knew they had quality problems, and yet made a business decision to push forwards anyways. The only word for that is hubris. That is what really amazes me.
That is awesomely full of shit. It says that he is an executive though, so I am not surprised.
The WHOLE reason I have still not purchased a XBOX360 is the Red Ring Of Death fiasco. It has to be the most unreliable product put forth in decades, probably since the Ford Pinto. I am not a fanboy and I own both a PS2 and a XBOX. I would really like to get a XBOX360, but to this day I cannot be assured that it will not fail within 6 months.
I bet that the "gamers" polled in that little research project were ALL under 14 years old. Of course they "forgave" Microsoft. They're kids! Try asking their parents if they can receive forgiveness. I bet there would be a different story entirely as shipping costs are not free. The time and hassle on the phone to get it taken care of takes its toll.
Forgiveness? That's a riot. Nobody that had to pay for that console is going to forgive or forget about this for a long long time. This WAS Microsoft's version of the Ford Pinto, even more so than Vista. That is saying something too.
Actually, shipping is free, at least in NA. (Score:2, Informative)
For most people shipping costs are in fact free. The replacement process is not without hassle -- I had to request a box 3 times before actually getting one, though you could legitimately blame their shipping company for that -- but the whole thing never cost me a dime, and I had my '360 back within two weeks of sending it off. I live in Canada; I don't know how it is overseas, of course.
(For reference, the process is this: you call their toll-free line, spend about 10-20 minutes going through an automated
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Competition (Score:3, Interesting)
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Right, as a Sony fanperson, I think it's good that Sony has some competition rather than totally dominating the market. It pissed me off to no end how SCEA slacked off a bit with added functionality for the PS2. Did you know that the PS2 can do a some of the media functionality the PS3 can do? But only in Japan. Same goes for the HDD stuff. NTSC-J FFX can use the HDD but NTSC-U/C territory FFX can't.
Not surpising that Xbox 1 -a PC- had great yields (Score:5, Insightful)
Many people complain about how incredibly hot their electronic devices become during use, and laptops get the most complaints. Why? Because everything is packed into a nearly air-tight space, hampering heat removal. The 360 designers sabotaged the 360's reliability by building a small and sexy machine that can't dissipate heat from the internal components fast enough to keep the running reliably.
The 360 designers dug themselves a deeper hole by rushing unique hardware elements, in contrast to the Xbox 1, which had industry standard components. Intel had its Celeron's for the Xbox 1s "dialed in" at its factories: yields should have been in the nineties. Likewise, the SDRAM chips were industry-standard, along with the DVD drives. As far as I know, the NVIDIA GPU was neither new nor groundbreaking. Microsoft commissioned IBM to build a custom chip--who's IP would be owned by MS, so no skin off of IBM's nose if the custom processor failed due to MS's unrealistic usage in production--based on a fledgling microprocessor technology. This was a big risk that hasn't paid off because the 360s physical dimensions seem to belie an overly optimistic idea of heat production from the CPU. With the Xbox 1, any veteran engineer could say, "Look, here's a Celeron, here's its heat production, we NEED a heat sink of such and such size, we need open space around it, and this much airflow." With the custom 360 CPU, engineers may have been afraid to speak up about the thermal requirements because the CPU was so new and unfamiliar. Then, there's the ATI GPU, again custom. MS went ahead and crammed it into the system while telling themselves it wouldn't overheat, would perform admirably, and, if not, they could make it work reliably. Well, they should have been more cautious and properly spec'ed and tested the GPU. After taking the time to test and establish the GPU's operating conditions, only then should they they begun design on a case that would be small and still allow adequate heat dissipation.
In the end, the Xbox 1 was a great console because of three things: one, MS didn't innovate: they simply built a Wintel PC based on reliable, time-tested, industry standard components. Two, MS used its position in the software market to cover its losses for producing a high-powered, high quality PC. Three, MS built the Xbox 1 with more regard for function than form. The case was huge, but was great for thermal management.
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The difference here is that the Xbox cost them a huge amount of money (I don't think they ever made a profit off an Xbox sale), and did not benefit from integration of parts. For instance, one of the most acclaimed bonuses of a 360 (by developers) is the integrated memory (I'm not a hardware engineer, so if I'm off here, correct me). The fact that the memory can be used both as video ram and standard ram allows for serious optimization benefits.
Just throwing together some PC parts doesn't make it better.
What they need ... (Score:2)
... is a new Xbox 360 logo [today.com].
And I'm sure those $200 cheap Xboxes aren't all refurbished red ring casualties. Not all of them.
Nothing new (Score:2, Insightful)
Big company releases defective product to get a foot in the door. Hardly anything new?
Typical of Microsoft, thinking of themselves rather than the people who have to use their product.
So like any other Microsoft product really (Score:2)
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Yeah, just like when we say "Playstation" we always mean "PS3", because the PS2 has been long dead.
Re:Cue Apple Apologists (Score:4, Funny)
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I must be... when did Apple start making a console?
(...and when you get done showing me that, someone show where the other three horsemen of the apocalypse are?)
(yes, I own a Mac. It ain't exactly a popular gaming platform...)
A wii little Mac (Score:2)
I must be... when did Apple start making a console?
First there was Pippin [wikipedia.org]. Then there was the wii little Mac mini [wikipedia.org].
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First there was Pippin [wikipedia.org]. Then there was the wii little Mac mini [wikipedia.org].
Then Pestilence and Death.
Oh, maybe you were answering his other question.
Re:Microsoft's Failure In The Console Market (Score:5, Insightful)
"now with the 360 they have taken on the reputation of having created the worst console in the history of gaming."
Can't say I agree with that. In terms of defect rate, absolutely. But if you have a working 360, it does a lot of things well.
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The PS3 is now out-selling the 360.
The PS3 may have a higher attach rate as well, last I heard.
The PS3 plays a modern high definition movie format you can actually buy new releases in.
The PS3 doesn't charge me to play online, so its substantially cheaper than a 360 over a year, or worse, five years.
The PS3 rarely crashes (I know some people report that it happens, even though its pretty stable).
The PS3 has some great exclusives.
Failure? hardly. Its still being sold successfully and selling more by the mon
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Worst console? Hm.
There DOES seem to be a big following online for it with Live. It's pretty cool to play all those old games on the system, and I do know a fair number of people who use the system a lot.
Train wreck? I agree. Will it continue on? Probably. Flawed and broken, though fortunately people actually have a choice in the console market.
It would, however, be interesting if XBOX dropped out and left only Sony and Nintendo.
Re:Microsoft's Failure In The Console Market (Score:5, Insightful)
Everyone should be thanking MS for jumping into the console market. Whether you like the XBox or not, the competition has made the market better.
Bash MS all you want, but they introduced more versatility in the XBox than Sony did with the PS2 (ie. harddrive, online multiplayer, custom soundtracks). Sony had a virtual monopoly in the console market and MS forced them to work harder. That only benefits the consumer.
Sure MS has lost a ton of money breaking into this market. Did anyone actually think it would be easy wrestling market share from a monopoly??? (If it were, Linux would have a much larger share of the PC platform. Yeah, yeah...mod me down. I'm writing this from a "Hardy" box.)
The RRoD is a serious goof by MS. Still, they have made great strides in establishing a position in the market considering this is their 2nd gen. and they are just now getting some of the franchise titles that were previously exclusive to Sony. Not to mention the benefit of having the enormous library of games Sony built up with the PS and PS2.
Whether you prefer the 360 or the PS3, you should want MS to stay in this market for the long haul. The competition will only improve the consumers experience.
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Competition is good, but it doesn't really matter very much which companies are doing the competing. There's only room for so many major game consoles at once -- I would say somewhere around three in any given generation. When more companies than that try to introduce new consoles at once, some of them fail (e.g., Atari Jaguar). So I would say that if Microsoft were to exit the market, there's a high probability somebody else would s
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didn't they go out and buy up a number of big game development houses? I know in the high end graphics market, they purchased SoftImage to get a Windows version. They forced them to do a port to Windows and tried to kill the UNIX version. Fortunately, those using SoftImage knew what a piece of crap Windows was and so the UNIX base would not purchase the Windows version and if the company wanted to not totally fail, they couldn't end the UNIX version. Microsoft eventually sold off SoftImage. Could be bull bu
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Anyway, as long as you're happy with your 360, play it for the time it lasts you, but have you considered what will happen when your fourth or fifth model breaks down, three or four years from now? Personally, I expect my consoles to at least _try_ to survive for 10 years minimum, my PS1 still does fine for that matter.
Right and wrong (Score:2)
The right thing they did was launch early before the PS3, which gave them a big lead, which led game makers to give them juicy exclusives.
The wrong thing they did was launch early, which led to hardware problems which (reputation wise) will dog the system to the end of its days, leading for most game makers to also develop for at least the PS3.
Note the trouble is the thing they did wrong is the thing that makes the most difference long-term.
Re:Right on time ... for the price cut! (Score:5, Insightful)
Too bad the reliability problems have been resolved.
Not to ruin the fun of a good old fashioned Microsoft bashing but the 360 has been fine since last fall. Sure it sucks it launched with so many problems, and I was as mad as anyone about it a year ago, but they made good and now we can concentrate on playing games.. which is the point of the whole thing.
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You wouldn't happen to weigh more than a duck, would you?
Re:Right on time ... for the price cut! (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Right on time ... for the price cut! (Score:4, Insightful)
Microsoft is still recycling that enormous pile of steaming 1st gen 360s into the loop by sending them out as replacements for newer machines that die of RROD. So, you buy a newer 360 to attempt to avoid the problems that plague the older 360's but yours dies anyway (even the newer 360's have a failure rate of between 10% & 16%). You send it in to get repaired & you get a lemon back which will only last a year.
With a process like this, you know that the RROD problem is never going away until MS both solves the problem (failure rate < 3%) in a new Xbox design and stops sending out the ticking timebombs as replacements.
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In b4 fanboi console war shitstorm...
How tragic- your vision of the impending and inevitable flamewar ignored and modded down by disbelievers, just like a latterday Cassandra [wikipedia.org].
:)
Mmmmm..... nah, on second thoughts you're just stating the bleeding obvious