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Video Game Loot Boxes Under Scrutiny By 16 Gambling Regulators (cnet.com) 100

Posted by BeauHD from the under-investigation dept.
An anonymous reader writes: Gambling regulators from 16 agencies signed an agreement Monday in an effort to tackle the "blurring of lines between gaming and gambling." The international coalition, made up of European agencies and the Washington State Gambling Commission, said it's calling on the video game industry and tech platforms to help crack down on unlicensed third-party sites offering illegal gambling in video games. The coalition also said game providers have to make sure that features like loot boxes, which let players pay real money to purchase in-game items to artificially advance their power levels, aren't considered gambling under national laws. This kind of pushback could impact the decisions of video game makers. UK-based Gambling Commission said in a statement: "We are increasingly concerned with the risks being posed by the blurring of lines between gambling and other forms of digital entertainment such as video gaming. Concerns in this area have manifested themselves in controversies relating to skin betting, loot boxes, social casino gaming and the use of gambling themed content within video games available to children."
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Video Game Loot Boxes Under Scrutiny By 16 Gambling Regulators More

Video Game Loot Boxes Under Scrutiny By 16 Gambling Regulators

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  • Remember when (Score:5, Insightful)

    by stealth_finger ( 1809752 ) on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @08:05AM (#57333482)
    Remember when you used to buy games and just unlock stuff as you go? Ah, simpler times.

    • Re:Remember when (Score:5, Insightful)

      by bickerdyke ( 670000 ) on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @08:17AM (#57333530)

      Remember when you used to buy a game and could simply PLAY it?

      • Re:Remember when (Score:5, Informative)

        by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @08:23AM (#57333550)

        This is solved by not buying games from shitty companies.

        • Re:Remember when (Score:5, Insightful)

          by ArchieBunker ( 132337 ) on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @08:47AM (#57333684)

          Gamers are a bunch of whores who like getting treated badly. Every time EA releases a game people bitch and moan how terrible the company is, how terrible the game was, and how they will NEVER buy another EA game again. Well six months later some new bullshit game is announced and all those people can't get to the credit cards fast enough to pre-order.

          • Gamers are a bunch of whores who like getting treated badly. Every time EA releases a game people bitch and moan how terrible the company is, how terrible the game was, and how they will NEVER buy another EA game again. Well six months later some new bullshit game is announced and all those people can't get to the credit cards fast enough to pre-order.

            I haven't bought anything from EA in over a decade now. Not because they don't have titles that would appeal to me- but because I think they're scum and I don't trust them.

            • I've done the same. I also research the DRM before getting anything from anyone. There is also a problem with titles adding spyware to updates, or being aquired by a company that does. :/

            • Re:Remember when (Score:4)

              by jwhyche ( 6192 ) on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @11:12AM (#57335008) Homepage

              I can't remember when I bought my last EA game. I checked my inventory and none of games I bought from Steam are EA. Plenty of indy games out there. I paid 15 bucks for Giana Sisters, Twisted Dreams and played the hell out of it.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by jonwil ( 467024 )

            A check of my records shows the last thing I bought from EA was The Ultimate Collection with all the C&C games in it. And (with the exception of the abomination that is C&C4) those games aren't terrible and are actually good to play (plus I bought it 2012 before EA went full scumbag with loot boxes etc).

            My most recent gaming purchases have been Bethesda titles (Fallout 3, Fallout New Vegas and Fallout 4) and some old stuff on Gog (the System Shock games specifically)

    • Remember when you used to buy games and just unlock stuff as you go? Ah, simpler times.

      Everyone who bought Ultima online and everquest back in the day paved the way for all this shit. As soon as publishers saw gamers were dumb enough to buy or subscribe to software they didn't own or control it was over.

      • For an online game, you are paying for the online service, like you did with AOL or your ISP. So I don't have a problem with subscribing to such a "Game as a service". But then again, Clients for online services used to be free and did not cost full retail price. (Aol coasters anyone?)

        • For an online game, you are paying for the online service, like you did with AOL or your ISP. So I don't have a problem with subscribing to such a "Game as a service". But then again, Clients for online services used to be free and did not cost full retail price. (Aol coasters anyone?)

          Facepalm, the whole corpoirate agenda was to take software out of customers hands. Quake 3 vs quake champions, Diablo 2 vs diablo 3 so no you are the ignorant fool who fell for the scam that ultimately ruined videogame history. The whole agenda was to take AAA games and rebrand them "MMO/online" and take advantage of the fact your brain doesn't reason very well so they get to keep the game and exploit you silly for profits. In the 90's we also had "online games" aka quake 3, they game with server executa

          • Re: (Score:1)

            by Anonymous Coward

            What comes to my mind, is the constant banter from the videogame industry about how getting rid of piracy would lower prices for everyone. Well, there is a 0% piracy rate on consoles these days... but a game that used to cost $60 and be a truly finished product now costs $250-300, and likely will require hours of patch and DLC downloads before it is usable... much less the cost of the loot boxes needed to get the items that you could purchase one by one in the past.

            Combine this with the video game communit

          • I'm not taking a "stupid" from someone who can't recognize the difference between a MMORPG with thousands of players in a realm where each player is able to (temporarily) change the environment for all other players and a simple 5vs5 deathmatch on a limited map.

            But I agree that slapping an MMO-label on what would be a simple shooter is ruining many good games. But It's not 100% scam. There is a good portion of hype in it. You say you remember the 90s.... Do you also remember what happened to games in the 20

          • Yes back in the day, you paid for a video game once and that was it. And no one is arguing that more games shouldn't be like that; however, if you are playing a multiplayer game online, it's just a matter of reality that someone has to pay to keep the infrastructure working. Subscriptions are one option if players choose that option.

            Where we should object is if a game is required to be online for no reason (SimCity). Where we should object is where additional money is required for content that should have b

            • Re: (Score:1)

              by Anonymous Coward

              We used to play multiplayer games without a subscription model, you know.

        • Exactly. MMORPGs need regular income to continue as a going concern. "Lifetime subscriptions" are fraud.

          I remember when exercise places exploded in the 1980s. Every one had a "lifetime memnership". They aren't carefully investing your money so they can keep going indefinitely. They spend and pocket it as immediate profits.

          What happens when the market "gets mature" and there aren't enough new lifetimers or monthlies to keep it open? It closes. This is a few years later. This was the business model all

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Remember when your parents bought you that game for Christmas but your brother decided to "rage quit" the game by pulling out the cartridge (while the console was still on) and stomp it to bits? Me neither. I don't have a brother.

  • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 )
    Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • Re:Wizards of the Coast should worry (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @08:30AM (#57333590)

      The difference is that gives you a tangible product. Wizards cannot ban me from playing MTG, nor can they disallow me from using proxies or fake cards, and are not obligated to allow tournament entry (nor are you entitled to it). I am free to sell and trade the cards I acquire, I cannot do this with the majority of lootbox or gacha games and when I can it's often trapped on another market.

      In addition, if WOTC goes belly-up tomorrow, I still have my cards, can still play the game, and can even organize (unofficial) tournaments. If Waifu Simulator Gacha 2018 shuts down, all my stuff is gone and I can't get anything back. If EA bans my Origin account, then all my shit is gone for good unless I do serious dicksucking or file a lawsuit. If Blizzard shuts down the WoW servers, they will DMCA any private servers that spring up, even non-profit ones.

      That's the difference between the two.

      • The worst part is, you're calling it "my stuff". Except it's not, not really. It's a series of numbers in a database on the company's servers that gets temporarily transmuted into pixels on your monitor as long as the company allows it. It'll be interesting to see how digital ownership evolves, since giving users any sort of control over ownership would allow as a side effect infinite duplication of virtual items (since they effectively cost nothing and are worthless without the company controlling the cre

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by Anonymous Coward

        There's a reason why WOTC is very careful to not acknowledge the secondary market. If they acknowledge that you can convert the cards you purchase from boosters into real money, then it literally is gambling.

      • . I am free to sell and trade the cards I acquire, I cannot do this with the majority of lootbox or gacha games

        You realize that this makes it far more like gambling, right? I mean, you are literally buying a box of things with variable value. I'm not sure why that's not gambling, but a scratch-off ticket is.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by mark-t ( 151149 )

        Where I would say that CCG's like Magic crosses the line and becomes gambling is that you don't know in advance how valuable the cards you get are going to be... while perhaps as a tangible good they might technically have the same monetary value as whatever you paid for them, sometimes you will get multiple cards that you like in a single booster pack, but other times you'll get a whole pack of cards where none of them will offer any significant benefit.

        In the end, the practical usefulness of individual

    • I don't disagree. It was always a gambling scheme. They're obviously not selling something worth what people are paying each time.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Yes, you can. If you want to buy a pack and start playing in a tournament then grab a premade pack. Those cost far less than $20 and work very well provided that you are familiar enough with the game to identify which one you want and to play it effectively. In fact, for $20 you can buy several and mix-and-match them to make your own distinct deck without relying on chance.

  • cards? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by cascadingstylesheet ( 140919 ) on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @08:11AM (#57333510) Journal

    What about those card games where you buy packs of cards, hoping to get some special powerful cards in them?

    If loot boxes are gambling, why aren't those card packs?

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Thats... actually a good point. If the cards have cash value (and the manufacturers definitely have been marketing to resellers) and packs are at least semi-randomly sorted then yea, it would seem to be the same as a lottery ticket. Magic the Gathering card packs are basically loot boxes.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by sinij ( 911942 )

        Magic the Gathering card packs are basically loot boxes.

        Yes, but there is "truth in advertising" aspect to this. The entire point of MtG are card packs, it isn't stapled to something else unrelated.

        EA isn't selling Lootbox the Gathering games, they are selling other types of games (e.g. FPS) and then force lootboxes on players.

    • Shhhh...

      If we're not careful, they'll restrict everything that's even potentially onerous in the name of protecting us from ourselves.

      We're already dumbing down our education system to account for the least of us, at the expense of the best of us... why not legislate to protect the weakest citizens so I can't even get a decent pain pill?

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by SirSlud ( 67381 )

        God damn this "old man complains world is getting dumber and making his life difficult/annoying" shit is super tedious. Doubly so because it never fucking changes and it's always the same kind of morons who whine about it, regardless of what decade it is.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by SirSlud ( 67381 )

      The difference is with cards, you end up owning something physical. I don't really care what you say they're worth, it's a physical tangible thing that you spend money on that you then physically own. That's a discrete difference.

      Also because the barrier of effort required to spend is much lower with virtual currencies/items in game storefronts, it's more prone to taking advantage of people who have spending control problems or gambling issues which is why you're seeing increased scrunity.

      Garret

      • The OP may be referring to games like Hearthstone which is a purely digital CCG. If Blizzard decided to shut it down tomorrow, you'd have nothing for the money you spent.
    • Because with those card packs that is 100% of the deal you know you are getting rather than being hidden away inside a different product that you have already paid full price for. Also you can take any cards you have, sell them, trade them, burn them, whatever you want.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by jdavidb ( 449077 )
      And even more importantly, why isn't this a purely academic matter? Why do busybodies get to decide that somebody's game is too gambly or their drink is too alcoholy or whatever and make them stop? I think such busybodies should be shown the door of society and allowed to debate those things on their own without forcing their religion on the rest of the world.

      • Why do busybodies get to decide that somebody's game is too gambly or their drink is too alcoholy or whatever and make them stop?

        Because society can't survive too much gambling or too much drinking, because they provably cause fallout.

        I think such busybodies should be shown the door of society and allowed to debate those things on their own without forcing their religion on the rest of the world.

        And I think people who engage in antisocial business should get that experience instead.

      • Because time and time again, the free market has proven to not be capable of regulating itself.

    • According to Wikipedia gambling [wikipedia.org] requires three elements: consideration, chance and prize.

      Packs of cards certainly have the first two - consideration is (according to my reading) the promise or exchange of payment. I'm not sure I'd agree about "prize", considering packs of cards are clearly labeled to have "n random cards". Some may be worth more than others, but it's unlikely to buy a new pack of Magic cards to find one card worth much more than the price paid for the cards.

      Loot boxes, on the other hand, h

    • I've never understood why card packs where the vendor determines the rarity and value of cards aren't gambling. I think in baseball cards the vendor didn't necessarily know in advance which cards would be the most valuable, as it depended on how the players did after the cards were made/sold. But pokemon cards are basically like slot machines or lottery tickets for kids, it's borderline evil.

  • Loot Boxes Vs Digital CCGs (Score:3)

    by Only Time Will Tell ( 5213883 ) on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @08:24AM (#57333558)
    I'd be curious on how these agencies delineate between loot boxes which you buy and have random pulls based on probability and digital CCG packs which you buy and have random pulls based on probability... The former I think is poor game design when you are trying for a skin or weapon and have to keep buying to get it (I'd rather have an in-game way to earn it). The later is inherent in the design to keep players buying packs in hopes of landing powerful rare cards (which carry a lot of value in platforms that allow trading). In either case, I can see a kid wrecking their parents' credit card trying to get the card or item they're hoping for.

  • Shut em down. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @08:36AM (#57333620)

    Honestly I hope they shut down all the games that have loot boxes that do anything beyond cosmetic looks. Any company that puts items in to loot boxes that increases power levels over regular game play options needs shut down.

    • Honestly I hope they shut down all the games that have loot boxes that do anything beyond cosmetic looks. Any company that puts items in to loot boxes that increases power levels over regular game play options needs shut down.

      Just get rid of them all together, pubg is the worst, its cosmetics only but you get the same shitty cosmetic again and again and again, but it's ok because I guess because you can sell them back for a fraction of a percent of the cost.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by genfail ( 777943 )
      The only good pay to win gamer is a pwnd pay to win gamer!
  • Or they could ignore each other until they go away?

  • Loot boxes are not under investigation. Spending real cash to buy them (or unlock "keys") is under investigation for gambling. And gambling for kids at that.

  • We already have a solution! (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward

    I don't like games with lootboxes either.

    You know what I do?

    I don't buy them.

    I buy other games that don't feature lootboxes. And which let me own the game outright in a way so the company cannot rescind my ability to play it at any point in the future that I want.

    This doesn't need legal claptrap. If you like lootboxes, buy those games. If you don't, then don't.

  • I was looking forward to getting NBA2K19 when it released a few days ago. But then the horror stories started coming out about all the microtransactions. Every review mentioned how bad they were. Some reviews _only_ talked about the microtransactions and how theyâ(TM)re so deeply ingrained in every single part of the game.

    Fortunately for me Iâ(TM)m not interested in multiplayer. I just want a âoequick matchâ against the AI, similar to the Kick Off mode in FIFA. Well, try this for yoursel

  • I'm sick of games trying to get kids hooked. I personally disallow many games, but you literally can't get away from the loot box nonsense if you want to play virtually any game outside of Nintendo games these days.

    • This is really bad in mobile games. I play a few mobile games and have noticed this happening more and more. One game had an event with premium characters. Pretty standard stuff - you pay the premium currency which you can accrue by watching ads, completing certain in-game actions, or by paying actual money. I'm fine with this part. I buy the ones I want and skip the ones I don't want, mostly using freely earned premium currency. The problem was that one character could only be obtained in premium "chests."

  • Draft Kings is clearly gambling yet it is endorsed by MLB, NHL, NFL, and (possibly) NBA. How can these "regulators" go after such pettiness that are loot boxes and ignore the 800 pound elephant in the room. Is is because regulators are big sports fans and like to play Draft Kings?

    • 1) Those countries tend to regulate Draft Kings. For Example, they have a gambling license for the UK. 2) Loot boxes make far more money than draft kings. Hell, you could probably point to at least 10 companies that make more than draft kings.

  • Concerns in this area have manifested themselves in controversies relating to skin betting, loot boxes, social casino gaming and the use of gambling themed content within video games available to children.

    There's nothing special about children when it comes to gambling. It's not like adults aren't affected by the same psychological mechanisms. Knowing that something is addictive, and being wiser, doesn't make it less addictive. There's no reason to bring children into the conversation, gambling is just as manipulative of adults.

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