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Software Games Entertainment

ESRB Introduces a New Label To Indicate That a Game Has Loot Boxes (theverge.com) 67

Posted by BeauHD from the in-game-purchases dept.
The Entertainment Software Rating Board (ESRB), which is the organization that rates the content of video games, announced a new label today to indicate that a game will offer in-game purchases of loot boxes or similar types of items that provide a player with randomized rewards. The Verge reports: "This new Interactive Element, In-Game Purchases (Includes Random Items), will be assigned to any game that contains in-game offers to purchase digital goods or premiums with real world currency (or with virtual coins or other forms of in-game currency that can be purchased with real world currency) for which the player doesn't know prior to purchase the specific digital goods or premiums they will be receiving (e.g., loot boxes, item packs, mystery awards)," according to the ESRB. The label will be applied to "loot boxes, gacha games, item or card packs, prize wheels, treasure chests, and more," the organization said.

The new label will sit below the game's content rating, as seen in the photo above. The ESRB originally introduced the "in-game purchases" label in February 2018, but that label was broad enough that it could be applied to any game that offered any sort of buyable digital good, including non-randomized items like subscriptions, season passes, or upgrades to disable ads.
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ESRB Introduces a New Label To Indicate That a Game Has Loot Boxes More

ESRB Introduces a New Label To Indicate That a Game Has Loot Boxes

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  • About time and why not both? (Score:3)

    by luvirini ( 753157 ) on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @06:05AM (#59949184)

    It was about time that the warning labels contain useful info.

    And why not have two labels, one for loot boxes and other for other content that requires extra payment?

    • And a further question, what about games that do the switch and bait of introducing loot boxes later?

      • Easy, they have to be resubmitted and relabeled. This happened before with GTA San Andreas and the whole Hot Coffee mod thing. When the hot coffee mod was discovered, GTA San Andreas had to be rated and was now rated AO. Rockstar had to recall numerous copies of it, and rerelease a new version of the game that didn't have any parts of the hot coffee mod in it to have the old rating again

    • First, the discussion was shifted from "How criminal are loot boxes?" to "Are loot boxes criminal?"... and now they are trying to shift it *again*, to "How much do we need warning labels for this practice that totally is not a crime anyway?"

      Why do some people let the criminals make the rules? What are we? Human fuckin palm trees, swaying to the guff of these six-toed born-to-rule pony fuckers? [youtu.be]

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

      Because loot boxes by definition are "content that requires extra payment". Category x is a subcategory of y, and therefore specifying that x is present automatically means that category y is present.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by guruevi ( 827432 )

        There are plenty of games where loot boxes can be unlocked simply by playing the game (which typically involves grinding) as well as paying for it with both virtual and real currencies.

        • Almost all of those structure the gameplay in such a way that grinding is nearly impossible given how much time it takes or in the case of multiplayer games such a poor option by comparison that you won't be on even footing with anyone paying to play.

          I don't mind free-to-play games that survive off of in-game purchases, but there are very few that do it right. Path of Exile is one good example where anything you can buy from the developers with real money is merely cosmetic.

          I just don't bother with th

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

          This is an irrelevant point, because "random drops" are not the thing being policed. "Being able to buy random drops with real money" is.

          So the question in your case is "can you buy those things for real currencies"? If the answer is "yes", game gets a tag. If "no", game doesn't get a tag.

          • Re: (Score:1)

            by guruevi ( 827432 )

            If you pay for the game, doesn't that mean you're paying for random drops with real money? Logically speaking, and if you classify random drops as 'gambling' in some law, perhaps even legally, any game that features random drops and had at some point a monetary transaction is a 'gambling' game. Same goes for Pokemon and Yu-gi-oh card packs.

            Eg. in Blizzard world you can buy in-game currency with real-life money, sometimes the game is free to play, other times it is a pre-paid game. You CAN buy random boxes (

            • Re: (Score:3)

              by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

              >If you pay for the game, doesn't that mean you're paying for random drops with real money?

              No. Your definition is so broad that it renders itself useless. For example, every time a new piece of gear drops in RPG, it would fall under this category, even if this piece of gear is completely impossible to trade to other characters.

              Even FPS games like Doom fall in this category, because they have random ammo, armour and health drops from enemies.

    • Re:About time and why not both? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 ) on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @08:21AM (#59949466) Homepage Journal

      Why not just make all games with gambling in them 18 certificate? Gambling is illegal for minors, right?

      That's all loot boxes are. They found a way to open a casino for kids. It's no different than a slot machine.

      • I suspect the argument that's used for why this isn't the case is that with gambling you stand a chance to win actual money back, whereas with this loot boxes you're just paying money for worthless digital assets that can't be exchanged for money. I think Valve had to close some in-game market where people could sell items for this reason, because then the argument fell apart because the digital assets could be easily converted back into money so it really was just a form of gambling.

        Even then, it's stil

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          That's the exact argument used in Japan. In Japan gambling is illegal, but it's also extremely popular and widespread. The way it works is you go to a pachinko parlour or other kind of casino and buy tokens, balls in the case of pachinko. If you win you get some prize that is basically worthless, but if you take it round the corner there is a shop that will buy it from you in exchange for cash and then sell it back to the gambling establishment.

          Technically you didn't win any money so it's legal. Everyone kn

          • But for some reason loot boxes are fine, most likely because most politicians either don't understand them or are corrupt.

            They probably don't understand them, but even if you explained it I don't think most would want to ban them simply because you'd have to ban a lot of other things as well. Even if they did, it wouldn't work. There were strict gambling laws in the U.S. but they did nothing to stop people from going to offshore online poker websites and the like in order to gamble. Frankly, I'm not even sure there's a good argument for gambling being illegal for adults anyway. So at best you could just prohibit children from

        • I suspect the argument that's used for why this isn't the case is that with gambling you stand a chance to win actual money back, whereas with this loot boxes you're just paying

          That argument has failed legal trials in several countries when it was determined items had monetary value and in some cases you get something that had more value than you paid and in others it had less. Kind of like gambling.

      • The term "gacha game" comes from the Japanese word gachapon which is just one of those random capsule-based vending machines. You've seen these, they've been around for a long time and they're everywhere. They're perfectly legal for children to use.

        The reason for this is the fact that when you buy something from one of these machines you always get something in return. You don't know what you're getting, but you always get something. You never wind up losing your money outright. That's still gambling in
  • If they had an ounce of honestly they would just drop the pretences and name it after what is is: "unregulated gambling". It doesn't matter that the player cannot withdraw real-world money, it's a bet on something of value with real-world money.
    • *honesty

    • Re:Well... (Score:4, Interesting)

      by GuB-42 ( 2483988 ) on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @08:33AM (#59949494)

      It doesn't matter that the player cannot withdraw real-world money

      It changes everything.
      A big problem with gambling is the idea that you can recover from your losses. A typical example is a gambler who bets his return ticket from Vegas: he obviously needs it, but for some reason, he thinks he is guaranteed to win that last bet, so he thinks that it is OK to bet beyond your disposable income.
      With look boxes, just like with funfair games and trading cards, it is clear that money you put into that is lost, so people are less tempted to spend more than they can afford. Sometimes, the line is a bit blurry: it is possible to buy a pack of Magic cards and if you are lucky, sell it right back for more in the same shop you bought it from. But still, it is rarely as much as a problem as real gambling is, it is clear that you are paying to play a game and not making "investments".

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by Tora ( 65882 )

        Stepping off a high cliff that can lead to gross personal damage, harm, or death, is still a problem even if the cliff turns out to only be 100 feet high--instead of the other height of 500 feet. Arguing to not call it a dangerous cliff because one is higher than the other doesn't really matter, in my opinion, and is usually only reserved for the people who like to dabble in the 100foot cliffs challenges, but don't like people calling it a dangerous cliff.

        Sorry, it's a dangerous cliff.

        Note: I used to owner

      • With look boxes, just like with funfair games and trading cards, it is clear that money you put into that is lost, so people are less tempted to spend more than they can afford.

        Not quite. The fact that the items in loot boxes can be traded for value higher than the cost of the box is the reason several countries have determined they are legally considered gambling.

    • Exactly.
      It is bad enough for in-game purchases, especially for online games, which give your character a real advantage, aka Pay to Win.
      Loot boxes is now pay to gamble. With still a lot of kids playing video games, It gets them addicted to gambling at an early age, before they mature enough to handle it.

      Gambling addiction is much like other addictions. Kids and teenagers, even mature/good kids. Do not have fully developed brains, their risk/reward functionality isn't fully developed. Getting that Big W

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by mark-t ( 151149 )

      Any correlation that might be observed between the monetary cost and the value of something is often nothing more than a coincidence, and the notion that if something has no monetary worth then it is not valuable is objectively false.

      And again, that some might be willing to offer real-world currency in exchange for what they *consider* to be valuable is only an indication that that they happen to value that thing more than they happen to value the money they will spend for it, and isn't necessarily a ref

  • I've been pushing for something like this for a long while now. It's about time these Skinner-boxes get labelled. The next step is to regulate them as gambling, which I am also pushing for.
  • Shamus Young has a good write-up on why loot boxes are so effective at addiction, i.e. how they're similar to gambling machines. It makes for a compelling argument to regulate them accordingly (especially WRT kids).

    https://www.shamusyoung.com/tw... [shamusyoung.com]

    The original skinner box was a scientific apparatus, but now we use the term to describe gameplay mechanics. What’s really going on is that we’re using an exploit in the learning systems of our brain to create pleasure.

    Under normal circumstances, this works as intended. It doesn’t matter if you’re performing music, shooting hoops, telling jokes, solving a crossword, or learning to punch lawless thugs unconscious. Every success gives you a little kick of dopamine, allowing you to gradually fine-tune and hopefully perfect your performance. And that’s the trick here. Whatever you’re learning, it needs to be something with a non-obvious solution. If the solution to a problem is straightforward, then your mind isn’t going to be attracted to it. Everyone is wired a little different, but most of us don’t get a thrill from pressing a win button.

    But what if there was something where you could regularly enjoy success without ever mastering it? What if there was a task that you could never improve at matter how long you practiced, even though you could still succeed once in a while? A task like that could theoretically reward you forever. The good news is, such an activity does indeed exist. The bad news is it’s a slot machine.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Kjella ( 173770 )

      I don't think that's a good write-up. There's a niche of people that get stuck on slot machines in a casino but of the general population they're few. What video games are really good at giving you is a sense of progress. I mean it's just increasingly more badass virtual trinkets to fight more badass virtual foes or just more tricked out looks but it feels real enough. What they keep offering you is short cuts. It feels like your character is going places when in reality they control both the short route an

  • How about making them 18+? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Hentes ( 2461350 ) on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @06:41AM (#59949256)

    Or is gambling for children okay as long as you're upfront about it?

    • Where every crime is legitimate, as long as you are upfront about it, and complain about "muh freedums (from other people's freedoms". ;)

      Thankfully, there's still sanity growing in this world.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

      Honestly, that's going to probably be overboard. Lootboxes are similar to trading card games and other things which are "gambling" except not quite because you're not gambling for money but "other value".

      Should we make things like Magic The Gathering, yu-gi-oh and so on to 18+ too? By your logic, we should. In more realistic world, people need to learn how to manage their natural risk taking instinct, and exposing children to things like trading card games is probably a decent enough method for it that is t

      • Re:How about making them 18+? (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Rockoon ( 1252108 ) on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @08:56AM (#59949574)
        Go even more tradition...

        They are the same as buying a pack of baseball cards.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

          Indeed. Good point.

          • I use to buy game pack cards but never really got into any particular game. I likely didn't spend enough to make it worth my time. I always used cash and clearly you can only spend what you have.

            That was in the early 90s.

            Flash forward to 2020. If you play an online game that has any kind of pay to play option or a market or any way for you to send money to the company, it will be done with a debit or credit card. It's much easier to over spend with a payment card. Especially a credit card that likely has a

        • They are the same as buying a pack of baseball cards.

          I've never heard of someone buying a baseball card and instantly being able to turn around and sell that card at a profit. Baseball cards value came from its rarity over time. It wasn't a gamble as much as a purchase with value only realisable at a later date.

          Lootboxes providing items sometimes worth more on the open market than what was paid for it, and sometimes worth less is precisely why they are considered gambling in many countries.

          • I've never heard of someone buying a baseball card and instantly being able to turn around and sell that card at a profit.

            Even brand new baseball cards have varying values. The packs are a random assortment, and some packs are worth more than the cost of the pack, others less than the cost of the pack. But none of this matters.

            In most cases, the cosmetic "loot" you get from these loot boxes are not easily convertible to money, and I dont know of a case where it isnt against the games terms of service to do so.

            I dont play barbie with my game characters and therefore I do not open loot boxes.

        • the practical nature of Baseball cards means they're limited. At some point you have the complete set. The same is true for Magic the Gathering cards.

          There's also a secondary market for both, which limits your expenses.

          Loot boxes tend to be infinite. There's consumables, obviously. Like what Candy Crush does. But there's less obvious things, like how loot boxes become chains to get gear needed to play the game, or even just to complete a set.

          There's also the fact that loot boxes introduce a whol
        • Baseball cards are very straightforward. I buy a pack, I know I am getting a known quantity of an item. This would be like taking your kids to Chuck-E-Cheese, paying admission, but then told you can't enter sections of the building without a specific baseball card you purchase in a random pack.

          As a parent, I am buying my kid a game. Traditionally, a game means challenges derived from a one-time purchase. Many games are very predatory...where they force you to play online and they only way to compete i

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Hentes ( 2461350 )

        Should we make things like Magic The Gathering, yu-gi-oh and so on to 18+ too?

        Absolutely. We should've killed this thing long ago before it spiralled out of control.

    • I am in general curious about the effectiveness of Age Rating systems.
      We have some parents that don't care, the kid wants it they will give it to them. (They are not necessarily spoiling their kids more than other parents, but their borders on what they think they can and cannot have, is rather loose)
      We have the other extreme where parents will follow these rating systems like gospel. Age 14 and under. if you are 13 years and 364 days old, you still can get it, or play it.
      These both extremes the parents do

      • They do break it down. https://www.esrb.org/ratings-g... [esrb.org]
        It will say things like "Blood and Gore", "Strong Language", "Simulated Gambling", "Real Gambling", etc. along with the overall rating.

        • I am not arguing that, I am just arguing the intial rating that gives an age and stops general reading further down.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by bws111 ( 1216812 )

        Yes, there are parents at those two extremes. And in the middle are a whole bunch of people who will just trust the guidance that the age rating gives. What is the problem with that? Parents that have a particular aversion to some element can get further guidance from the individual elements that are listed.

  • ... to indicate that a street has regular successful car thieves"
    (Hint: They will soon be on ALL the streets.)

    Yeah, no, there is no legitimacy in dupery and fraud. It is a crime. In a civilized country, anyone making "games" like that, must go go prison.

  • So I can search stores for games that have no advertising, no in game purchases and not be drowned out by the 50.000 click-3 in a row games that pop first.

  • Loot boxes...a cute term for addiction. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by geekmux ( 1040042 ) on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @08:01AM (#59949402)

    Just because you swapped a one-armed bandit with a game controller doesn't mean you get to dismiss the obvious underlying problem, which is an addiction to gambling.

    Enough of this "loot box" PC bullshit. Call the spade a spade already. It's easy to label them as mere "loot box fans" when they're 15 years old. Not so easy when that becomes a 35-year old basement dweller with a serious gambling addiction, and that's going to happen because psychology has already proven it will. (Why else do you think game designers invest millions into this shit.)

  • Games should be required to have a mandatory 16 or 18 rating if they include gambling mechanics.

    • Games should be required to have a mandatory 16 or 18 rating if they include gambling mechanics.

      Speaking of pathetic, no parent has ever thought twice about handing a hardcore porn surfing device to their prepubescent child.

      We call those porn addicting devices "smartphones".

      Wake me up when parents start giving a shit about perpetuating harmful addictions.

  • Gambling (Score:4, Insightful)

    by thsths ( 31372 ) on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @08:42AM (#59949524)

    It is time to call this by its proper name: gambling.

    "This game contains gambling."

    And then you are either ok with gambling, or you give the game a miss.

  • So what happens when they sneak them in? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by rsilvergun ( 571051 ) on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @09:43AM (#59949768)
    Activision has been doing that lately, where you buy a game and 2-3 weeks later (after the review cycle is over and metacritic base score is established) it's got loot boxes.

  • fuck them in the ear

  • That's it. That's the post.

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