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Games Entertainment

Unreal Tournament Not To Include Linux Executable 234

Posted by Hemos from the want-more-support dept.
AugstWest writes "According to Brandon Reinhart's .plan, even though the Linux support for Unreal Tournament will be on schedule with the rest of development, GT Interactive has decided not to include the Linux executable within the box. After Carmack's statement yesterday, the implications are pretty big. The only thing that could let them know how big the Linux gamer base is would be to have everyone interested in the Linux port make their opinions known, both publicly and to GT. " Politely let GT know - and thanks to Brandon Reinhart, who will be making the Linux executable available for download after UT hits the shelves.
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Unreal Tournament Not To Include Linux Executable More

Unreal Tournament Not To Include Linux Executable

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  • interesting post. i wonder if the above poster has much of this elusive thing called 'free time'.

    it's a savvy idea: why spend more than necessary to support a group whose gaming numbers are unknown? let's help them make it worthwhile!

    jon

  • huh? (Score:2)

    by Haven ( 34895 )
    GT decided that they didn't want to support a Linux version and didn't want it in the box.

    To my understanding they have a working linux port, but don't want to expand their market... Its just bad business.
  • I will by the Windows version as soon as it comes out. I have been playing the amazing demos as they have been released and am way too excited to sit on my hands waiting for the Linux port.

    I may buy the Linux version if I get a chance, but I have to buy the Windows version immediately.
  • I would not buy it just 'cus they are snubbing the linux folks. WTF are they thinking???
  • I think this is the first time Unreal has not done something that Id Software had announced that they would do first.

    Its seems their not going to include it in the box because they can't be bother suppporting linux.

    Another reason to not buy UT.
  • id is making it so if you buy a Windows version, you won't be able to get the Linux or Mac executables until after Christmas.

    At least GT is letting people download Linux stuff right away. But I don't see why they wouldn't just include it on the CD... strange.

  • How to send Epic a message (Score:4)

    by substrate ( 2628 ) on Friday November 19, 1999 @09:17AM (#1518157)
    Before anybody starts bandering about the favourite rallying cries of either boycott or pirate the game consider how best to send them a pro-Linux message.
    1. Wait till the Linux downloads are available, download them
    2. Purchase the retail package
    3. Send in your registration cards, make sure there is information that you're only playing the game because a Linux port is available.

    The only things that matter to management is the bottom line. Boycotting or pirating Unreal Tournament won't accomplish anything, you just don't appear in the bottom line. Maybe nobody using Linux plays games, or maybe everybody boycotted us but there's not enough information to tell. We did sell stacks of copies to Windows users though.

    Beyond registration a means of sending the message en masse would be useful as well. Something that says the only reason we the undersigned parted with money for Unreal Tournament was because a Linux port was available.

  • what do you think you are doing? (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    don't send hordes of slashdotters complaining about something they aren't interested in, but want just because of having sakes . If there isn't a big enough market to justify a linux exec then so be it
  • It makes sense to me. I'm sure there's not much market research out there to show how well linux games sell, because there simply are nowhere near as many commercial games available as there are for other platforms. It stands to reason then that a firm would take a more conservative approach to a market in which there isn't the sort of data that will show them that they will indeed make money.

    I will buy the Mac version as soon as it's available, and will ALSO buy the Linux version. If sales for the Linux port are much lower than anticipated because everyone's already bought the PC or Mac version, this company and others will surely take that as a hint to stop developing for Linux. The only way to get your voice heard is to let them know you WILL buy the game, and then actually go out and buy it when it gets released.

    -Pahroza

  • General... (Score:4)

    by _Ender ( 96584 ) on Friday November 19, 1999 @09:20AM (#1518162) Homepage
    I think it is somewhat of a good idea to release the Linux binaries separately, so that they can keep track (with some degree of accuracy, albeit not 100%) of the number of people interested in running it on a Linux box.

    Most people I know that run Linux go to Windows to play games client-side, but as far as servers go, we stick to Linux for running a dedicated game. GT should keep this in mind, and release the Linux binaries immediately upon release of the game in stores (which I suppose is today).

    One of the main factors they should also keep in mind is that not everyone has a T1+ connection to the net, so if they're going to be releasing binaries that add up to several MBs worth of data, they had better plan on mirroring it in several FAST places - not just their site and cdrom.com (or another heavily-loaded mirror)...

    I fear that Quake3's boxed Linux version won't gain as many buyers as it was once expected, due simply to the nature of the game in comparison with id's past games, but UT has a real chance here. Unreal was a horrid game over a network, but UT looks very promising (especially over a LAN =9 Add in random taunts to your victims to phenomenal looks, and you've got a fun game!

  • Ever thought about using phrases that don't involve qoutes from children's television shows? The fact is that Linux is opensource, much more powerful than win98, and handles TCP/IP protocols much better than any Microsoft product. One other thing Nerds don't need tech support they figure it out on their own.
  • uh, you can't buy the linux version. that's the point. you can only buy a windows version, and then download the linux executables.

    it's also not a matter of waiting for a port, the port is done, complete and ready to go, but it won't be on the CD.

    2 points for this?
  • from his plan:

    GT decided that they didn't want to support a Linux version and didn't

    want it in the box. We decided not to argue the issue, so the Linux UT
    libraries and executables will not be available in the box.


    In other words, we were to lame to stand up to GT. What a cop out. Come on Epic, stand up for principles like id does.

    Now I'm going to have to reconsider whether or not to buy UT.

  • Fuck'em (Score:1)

    by NaCh0 ( 6124 )
    If Epic is not going to support linux, I am not going to support them. Its that simple.

    How stupid is it develop a linux executable and not drop it into an unsupported directory on the CD?

    I'll be putting my money in ID's direction.

    Thank you Epic.
  • IMNSHO, just because, as a community, we are used to subsisting on unofficial, unsupported "ports" doesn't mean we should keep tolerating this situation.

    Don't buy UT unless it has "Linux" on the box. And here's why: if a company knows that X percent of the paying customers use its products under the XYZ OS, it hires ($$$ !) a proportionate number of developers and support staff. The more XYZ developers, the better XYZ support for the next release - it's a feedback system!
  • It's important to understand the difference between a distributor and a game studio. Epic Megagames (and I believe Digital Extremes) are the folks that have actually created the game. They have gone to great lengths to ensure that there is a linux version for folks like us to play without having to boot into windows.

    The idiots at GTI are the ones that have decided, for no discernable reason, not to include the linux executables. If you want to snub GT, simply order direct from Epic, if they offer it direct.

    In any case, it is GTI that is snubbing linux, not the actual game creators. GTI was purchased by Infogrames this past Tuesday, let's hope the new management has a better clue for future releases.

    If you snub them for this, then in the future it's likely they won't bother to create a linux version at all. Far better to bitch to GTI/Infogrames.

  • Contacting GT Interactive (Score:3)

    by GoRK ( 10018 ) on Friday November 19, 1999 @09:31AM (#1518173) Homepage Journal
    I noticed there wasnt an address or an active petition linked anywhere.. Thought these address from the GT Interactive "Contact Us [gtinteractive.com]" page might be of use:

    Customer Service
    If you have a general inquiry about existing or upcoming GT titles, choose from the following list of customer service agents:

    The one to contact: customerservice@gtinteractive.com [mailto]

    And for those of you for whom it is appropriate:

    Press Inquries,
    Product-specific

    f you are a member of the PRESS with a product-specific inquiry, write to Product Communications [mailto].

    ~GoRK
  • I dont find it strange at all. Why waste their time supporting linux? Soon UT, Quake III, and possibly some other games will be out commercially for linux. When they come out, BUY THEM. If you take the attitude that you wont buy them since they arent out as soon as windows, then the game makers will see that there is no market for Linux games. That would be the touch of death for your hopes that linux may someday be a gaming OS.
  • I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I don't see what the big deal is. They took the time and energy to do a Linux port, and they are making it available, just not in the box because they probably don't have the resources to hire and train support staff to handle what is likely a *very* small user base. And let's face it, as with most Linux problems, you'll be able to find ample support from the community. So in the end, the Linux crowd gets a great game (and boy is it) and GT tests the waters to see if there is enough interest to do 'in the box' games. A win-win.

  • Re:As good as UT is...... (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Yeah, but the software already exists. Adding it to a CD, and marking it unsupported, and plastering a "COOL it works with LINUX" logo on the box costs you nothing. Even if one CD is sold because of this, you have made profit. If none are sold, you lose nothing.

    Only an idiot wouldn't add it into the CD...
  • A couple of people who have posted on here so far said that they wouldn't buy UT because GT won't be shipping the Linux version in the box. Well, think a moment - Epic Megagames (UT's authors) didn't make the decision. GT made the decision. Epic, on the other hand, went through a lot of effor to make sure the Linux port existed, was up to par, etc. They did thier bit for the OS revolution here - GT dropped the ball. I'm still buying UT on Monday when it hits the shelves - I support Epic. However, I'm going to be following my purchase up with an email to GT, and to Infogrames to point out how much of a mistake this sort of thinking is, based on my feelings as a customer when it comes to Linux support. Not to talk bad about them but, this *IS* GT we are talking about. They've managed to have thier hands on some seriously good sellers (Unreal, Deer Hunter (*SIGH* A chart topper when it comes to sales. Go fig.) - and managed to still have serious problems financially (strong sales, and still big losses? Wow.) I'm hoping Infogrames becoming majority shareholder in GT might turn things arround. Anyway - write letters to explain how you, as a Linux user, feel about thier decision. Don't hurt Epic's pocketbook just cause the twits above them screwed it up for them.

  • Won't work. (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    When you buy the retail package, a "checkmark" goes beside "Windows", not Linux. If/when you have a problem with the product, if you aren't using Windows, you will be refused support. The best way to send a message to these guys is to simply NOT buy the game and wait for some other Linux-native, but more importantly, Linux-SUPPORTED game to waste time with.
  • If they couldn't be bothered to support linux then its kinda funny that they (Epic, not GTI) bothered to create a linux version of the game at considerable cost to themselves. GTI is to blame, not Epic. Frankly I don't understand what GTI was thinking since it costs them nothing to include a linux executable on the CD. Chalk it down to yet another clueless move by a large software distributor.
  • His name is Brandon Reinhart.... not Brian. Thanks.
  • I would imagine that a massive number of the UT servers will be running on Linux, which will seriously boost game sales -- more servers means more available places to play... Why should we support them if they're not supporting us?
  • Another reason to not buy UT.

    Which is another reason for them and other gaming companies to not release any more games for linux.
  • .. i might be wrong but, if you do buy the windows version, there isnt really much to download after that. the maps and textures and such will work on any platform. its only the code that had to be compiled for linux that would need to be downloaded. and that shouldnt be more than a couple megs. but whatever, im not very fond of linux, or UT for that matter. give me q3! -nick
  • specifically because I wanted to show support for Epic and GT for cross-developing a game on Linux (and its good, too). Just got the note today that it already shipped. Cripes.

    I'll still d/l the Linux port but it does concern me just a little that this news comes out the _day_ that this supposedly hits shelves and pre-orders are shipped. Least they could do is throw in a hat, t-shirt or mug?

    Bugger, didn't want to hassle with competing for download with everyone else again, either!

    (whining mode/off)

  • Silly zealots (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    They don't include the Linux version in the box because they want to count the interest in the Linux version, the best way to do this is to count downloads of the Linux version.

    Look at it this way, if the amount of downloads is huge, future GT games will come with Linux exes as standard.

  • I'm amazed (Score:4)

    by stump ( 21577 ) on Friday November 19, 1999 @09:41AM (#1518189)
    Slashdotters getting excited to purchase a closed-source product. Wow. Never thought I'd see that.

    What's the difference here folks? Is it because it's "just a game" and if it's unstable and buggy who cares? Or is it because open-source games just suck and we're forced to pay for good proprietary game software?

    By the way...if anyone knows of an open-source game that doesn't suck, I'd like to know about it. Don't mention the obvious Carmack released code.

    Time to watch my Karma drop...
  • that stinks. Just when I though Linux was getting an edge... *FLUSH*
    When they see the success of the Linux version of Quake 3 I think they'll wisnh they did differently, and more companies will notice too. I said it once and I'll say it again: PLEASE release Diablo 2 for Linux, Blizzard!!!


    If you think you know what the hell is really going on you're probably full of shit.
  • It's my understanding that they won't be releasing the data on the net (otherwise why buy the game). The main executable(s) should be the only stuff released on the net. Those should be limited in size to a few megs, thus there shouldn't be too much strain on their servers.

    This way, you buy a CD for windows but you download the appropriate binaries to run the linux version. I could be wrong of course, but this approach seems the most logical.

  • linux supports more than one arch (Score:3)

    by heh2k ( 84254 ) on Friday November 19, 1999 @09:43AM (#1518192) Homepage
    i know i was just bitching about this yesterday, but assuming all the world's an x86 is as bad as assuming all the world is running windows.

    i get the impressive that a lot of game developers believe linux only runs on x86 (or maybe that ports to other archs are "ports" and not "real" linux, or something like that).

    bottom line: if you're going to support linux (please do!), please make builds for archs other than x86! or, if the code depends on x86 asm and hasn't been ported to other archs, then say so; that is, say it's for linux/x86, not just "linux". saying it's "for linux" is pretty vague (unless you mean you're distributing the source and i'll build on any arch linux runs on).

    sorry to rant, but non-86x users are being left out (much the same way linux is being left out, in favor of windows) and not even mentioned.

    maybe i'm being a little pedantic, but it'd be nice to see other archs get more games (yes, i know there are some games available for ppc and alpha).
  • C'mon Epic....how the hell are we suppose to get games on the fastest growing platform supported if someone doesn't take the first step? If GT is being the bad guy here, then someone needs to let them know that they are going to LOSE in the FPS arena to Q3 just because they were too stupid to allow the binaries to be included on the same CD. Either that, or the fear of M$ must still hold some weight with developers. Either way, we all lose. Grow a spine.
  • I don't understand your point. They wouldn't have to "justify" the linux executable. If the CD has the space to put the executable onto it, what is the cost that needs justified. Let's see:

    1) Cost of space on the CD: Oops they weren't going to use that space anyhow, I'm sure the CD wasn't filled completely up. No cost there.
    2) Cost of extra boxes and manuals for the linux version: Oops they could be put into the same box with an extra sentence added to each. Works with Windows95 (and Linux) on the box and (linux users will find the executable in such and such directory) in the manual. No noticable extra cost there
    Where is the need to justify it. It is just a file. Put it in the damn box and write the word linux in the requirements. It's neither hard nor expensive. What is expensive is the bandwidth usage of all the Linux users downloading the thing.

  • Excellent point, IMO. Another suggestion also...

    Say that such and such a program comes out in a multiplatform CD. I would think that for the most part everyone is is buying for one platform - but what would tell them for sure? Well, you have feedback cards, but if you are like me you never send them in because all they are is a way to get you on their mailing list. What is another way?

    Simple. Call them up with an install question. Even if it is something silly like "I can't find the README file for Linux" or "I bought this game to run under linux - what is this directory marked 'win9x'?" Just a simple easy to answer question.

    Course, they would think "gosh, these linux guys are dense!", so maybe it is not a good idea after all.
  • I kinda disagree with that sentment. It's pretty hard to go from having a good game idea to the final stage of putting the box on the shelf to buy. Programming is the hardest stage - the second hardest is finding someone willing to take the risk, buy the rights, and distribute your work of art. The development cycle on most games if this type is currently 18 months (of course, the first Unreal was 5+ YEARS. Eeks!) That's not just one guy working on it at night (which is what I do) for 18 months. That's 5 or 6 guys (or even larger teams) working thier tails off for 18 months, and towards the end, working ungodly hours to make it all come together. Someone has to pay for that - most people can't just fork down that much cash, and pay thier own paycheck along with a whole teams paychecks. That's where companies like GT Interactive come in. They sign a contract, pay thier wages, etc. When the game is done and ready to go, GT takes the box from there, and runs with it. The downside is, from time to time, companies like GT screw you. That's pretty much what happened with Epic here, I think. They obviously were ready for a Linux version - and GT said no. Epic made thier effor, but, GT killed the idea. Someone also mentioned Epic being spineless because they didn't fight it. Considering the product went gold (burned to the master CD, basically) only a short time ago, if they got into a pissing match over the Linux version shipping or not, thing would get even worse. GT holds the cards when it comes to how it ships. Once Epic signed that contract, way back, with GT to make UT become a real product, and GT passed them the cash to get things going, it was all out of thier hands in many ways.
  • This sounds great. The only problem is that not everyone has the bandwidth to download a few hundred megs. If they really wanted to keep track of how many people are using the software, it wouldn't be difficult to send an electronic registration letting them know what OS it's running on. I'm sure that the linux folk would not mind taking the extra few minutes to let the game send the OS it's running on.

    I purchase quite a bit of software and hardware, and usually end up forgetting to send in a paper registration card, but fill out electronic ones almost 100% of the time. An automated one-time packet sent to them with an OS name would be perfect for the situation. Granted of course, that they let the user be the one doing the sending.

    Pahroza

  • This sounds great. The only problem is that not everyone has the bandwidth to download a few hundred megs. If they really wanted to keep track of how


    The Linux part of Unreal Tournament won't be a couple hundred megabytes. All it will be is the executable. I've not actually played a game in ages but I'd be suprised if it was more than a few megabytes in size. Most of the data on a CD is well... data. Maps, graphics, sounds, voice, ...
  • I think we should beat them at their own game guys. Even if you have absolutely no intention of buying the game, download the executable. This will raise the ratio of Linux downloads to Copies bought and maybe the next version will ship with Linux supported.
    I know you all are going to say that then when a linux version comes out it won't perform as good. But I disagree. When I bought Civ:CTP for Linux it was completely impulse buy. I had no intentions of buying a computer game when I went into EB that day, but seeing the word Linux I said "hey, I loved Civilization one. Why not get the sequal. I't here, it works on my machine, why not buy it" so I bought it. I still haven't bought Ultima Online or Kingpin. I see them in the stores and know they are supported under Linux, but don't really have the impulse to buy.
    I think the impulse sales of a linux version would be far greater than downloads of people that just intentional bought the game to download the linux executable. Marketing has alway been about forcing impulse buys (just look at what credit cards did) GT seems to have forgot that.


  • Bravo to Activision and every other company releasing a Linux version of popular games.


    Activision is actually publishing Q3 for Linux? I thought that Id was looking for another publisher familiar with Linux to do that. There was an old /. article just less than year ago which had Carmack asking /. for another publisher for Q3A for Linux. He had asked RHAT, but they declined.


    I would find the link to the old article, but I can't search the archives beyond a few weeks back. What's up with that?

  • Much more powerful: Linux has the ability to be an FTP server, TELNET server, File server, Web server, SAMBA server, and NFS server out of the box. Oh wait I forgot it can also read other types of partitions including FAT16 and FAT32. Through my own experience I can tell you that over both dialup and LAN I get faster downloads and connection speeds with Linux.
  • I stand corrected.
  • The problem is that it isnt only Unreal that is going to notice that Linux users arent buying. Other companies will see this and then decide not to make Linux versions. If you dont plan on playing Unreal that is fine. But if you do want to play then buy it once the linux version is out and do as the previous poster asked. This will be the only way to get more linux versions of games sold.

  • UT Linux (Score:5)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 19, 1999 @10:02AM (#1518207)
    The UT Linux executables will be available for download rather than being included in the box. We don't like this either. We REALLY, REALLY wanted the Linux executables to be on the CD, we reserved space for it, and actually had it there in the directory structure during beta. GT asked us yank it, because they were worried about tech support issues: that thousands of Linux users would have questions about installation that GT reps (who are only familiar with Windows and consoles) wouldn't be able to answer. We obliged with their request, because GT is responsible for performing (and paying for) UT tech support, and it didn't seem fair to put the burden on them. Here is part of a message I sent to a GT exec, advocating putting Linux on the UT CD-Rom: ---begin--- Why Linux on the Unreal Tournament box is a very good move: First, Red Hat Linux is selling very well in retail, and there's a good chance that by word of mouth, Linux users will pick up Unreal Tournament with their Linux purchase or afterwards. I'd be very surprised if we didn't gain over 3% more sales from Linux users. Now if UT sells a million units (Tim's wild guess), that's 30,000 additional units. If we make it *very* clear that the Linux version is unsupported (no tech support calls), then surely this is a profitable move. Second, while Linux users are far outnumbered by Windows users, the statistics don't tell the whole story. Linux users are the hardest of the hardcore. They're among the movers and shakers who are serious deathmatchers (Quake 2 and Quake 3 are available for Linux); they run major community web sites; they run servers on T1 and T3 connections. These people have far more influence on gaming than their numbers indicate. Third, Linux is gaining an incredible amount of momentum, and sticking the Linux penguin logo on the UT box would further the Unreal franchise's position as a leading-edge product that's not afraid to push into new territories. This has always been our hallmark -- Epic shipped the first-ever DirectX game (Fire Fight, published by Electronic Arts); now the Unreal Tournament demo is the first DirectX7 release; and now we have the chance to be the first game to ship simultaneous with Windows and Linux versions in the same box. ---end--- GT considered all of this and understood the issues, but still had overriding concerns about the cost. I can't say I blame them; I sure wouldn't want to be responsible for supporting users with 10 different versions each of 10 different Linux distributions, each with a completely different set of video drivers, x-windows shells, permissions, and possibly even recompiled kernels. Linux's approach kicks ass on the Internet with its open, user-driven community. But it doesn't seem too compatible with the mass-market distribution model, where companies pay rooms full of people to answer phones and help customers, and where one tech support call wipes out all the profit from a box sold. Emailing companies like GT *politely* to show your support for the Linux platform is a great idea. Just keep in mind that, to publishers, the Linux thing isn't simply a popularity contest; supporting Linux needs to make sense financially, and there are some serious issues with support and compatibility they need to consider. Tim Sweeney Epic Games http://unreal.epicgames.com/
  • I'll put in a vote for angband.
  • I can see why they don't want to support the Linux version- they probably don't have the staff yet to support the OS. Fine. But why not put the Linux executables on the CD anyway, and just put in a note saying "Not supported", the way they did with the Unread Editor when it came out. Complaining for nothing? Maybe. This just seems like pointy-haired management.
  • you can buy it at wal-mart [wal-mart.com] starting december 7th, but it's only win* version.
    --
    http://www.beroute.tzo.com
  • heheheh... OK, this is now WAY too many posts from one person... I just wanted to say that the post I'm replying to says, "2 points for this?" because the post I replied to had 2 points when I camne through. Someone has since trolled the post, and it looks like I'm begging for points.

    I doan need no steeking points.
  • From what I read I got the impression that they weren't prepared to 'support' the linux version. In other words, someone using linux calls up with a problem and they have no clue. It doesn't sound so unreasonable to me to offer the version online, but requiring the retail box to run it.

    mark

  • I don't know if this was previously suggested in a post as I only scanned them, but here goes my spin on things. Why don't we try to play the idiot? I know this goes against MANY peoples grain, but hear me out. When the windows version comes out in stores, send Unreal Tech support an E-Mail asking how you get the full version for Linux. Most tech support shops gather information about commonly asked questions, With enough submittions, this would end up there. THEN, when they say to download the linux port, and purchase the windows version, send in the registration card and mention your run Linux on it. Already it is going to appear in at least TWO managers hands, one from tech support, the other from product registration. The downloads will also appear in yet another managers reports. I can understand there not being enough market value to shipping out Unreal, however, I don't see as it would cost them more than they would make to offer a linux bundle on CD from their website. Any comments or added suggestions on this would be GREAT, as I plan on doing this.
  • While I agree with your comments about the nature of the feedback system, I have some doubts about the validity of your argument not to buy UT without linux in the box.

    For one thing, Epic did everything in their power to ensure a linux version of the game. They are to be commended for their willingness to support linux. GTI, being a mismanaged and cash poor company, chose not to incur significant cost by hiring or training their support staff to support linux in spite of Epic's wishes to the contrary. I'm hoping Infogrames fires all their execs and puts in folks with a clue.

    At this stage of the game, I think it's still a bit early to try to demand linux support. Both Epic and GTI could have ignored linux and still made off like bandits. The fact that at least Epic has not is a point in their favor.

    Your arguments work great except when the X% is so low that the folks in question don't give a damn. It's also assuming that the executives at the company are even aware of what X% is. Far better to buy the game be loud and complain a lot to give them an impression of increased X% than to simply ignore their product altogether and let them assume that sales were X% under expectations due to lack of player interest (it's not like GTI execs have any clue what makes a game good).

  • Re:I'm amazed (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I hear there's a kicka$$ version of solitare that's open source
  • BUT that does NO GOOD if you DON'T BUY the WINDOWS version!!
  • They don't include it on the cd because, like the .plan says, they don't want to support it. Their tech support people are used to dealing with users that put their cd-roms in upside down or have never heard of DirectX. Can you image them trying to trouble-shoot a Linux sound or video problem?

    So until they can get tech support people that CAN support a Linux game, they will not support it.

    Just a though, couldn't they include the Linux executable with some kind of non-support clause? I know that's a cop-out and something we shouldn't have to put up with, but at least it would be there.

  • You don't know anything, do you? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    This isn't a question of "guts" on the part of Epic; GT is their distributor -- what GT says, goes. That's it.

    Now then, Epic might be really pissed about this, but there's not a damn thing they can do about it. There are layers of contractual agreements between Epic and GT, and they basically say that Epic does whatever GT tells them to -- for as long as the contract is in force.

    Epic might choose another distributor for their NEXT game, but as far as UT is concerned, they're screwed.

    Welcome to the exciting world of distribution agreements!

    With respect to id showing "guts" and how that reflects poorly on Epic -- consider two things:
    FIRST, there were a mass of Slashdotters screaming at id just a couple days ago. Go check your archives to see how "gutsy" id was.
    SECOND, remember that money buys power. And what game company has more money than id? That's right: nobody. id is "gutsy" because they have the moolah to back it up, and that's all. It's not like they're out there fighting against the distributors, after all. They're in bed with them, just like everybody else.

    So, before you start passing pseudo-moralistic judgements on Epic, how about you check your facts first?

    Epic is a victim here, and you shouldn't be blaming the victim.

    Finally, you should be praising Epic for bothering to do a Linux port in the first place!! They didn't HAVE to do it, you know.

    . . . christ, you give some people an inch, and suddenly they feel entitled to the whole mile . . .

  • Nethack.
  • Uhuh, what if they had a Linux version but not a Irix? BeOS? Will you still lead the call to arms against them? Windows 9x is the #1 computer gaming platform right now, they're thinking in terms of $.
  • I.e. it's in stores Monday, so there's no way to change it.

    But if 100 000 people download the LINUX executable, maybe they'll change their minds.
  • I am not arguing with anyone. I am not giving my money to someone who won't support a product. I'm not going to buy this game and then spend hours downloading it on my 57.6ahem53.0 connection. There's no way. It ain't gonna happen. end of discussion.
  • to how the world works.

    Distributors like the MS monopoly.(***Calm down! Don't blow up just yet. Give me a chance to explain!)

    Think about the job of a distributor. They collect widgets from manufactures, and take them to widget stores. In between they have to store and monitor inventory on widgets from each manufacturer. If there are 10 manufactures, each producing 10 types for widgets, the distributer must maintain sufficient inventory on 100 items. If there are 10 manufactures, each producing 10 types for widgets for each of 10 types of widget boxes, the distributer must now maintain sufficient inventory on 1000 items.

    How much do you stock for manufacturer x, of widget y for box z (denoted x.y.z)? What happens when the 100 people that wanted x.y.z switch to box z~ and your left holding 50 units of x.y.z?

    It is in the distributors interest to keep everyone locked into MS. It keeps their inventory and maintainance headaches down by a factor of 2. If Linux catches on and people discover that there are alternate OSs out there, the distributor will have to 1)stock everything available or 2) continually tail people "We don't carry widget y for box z, but you could try widget n for box l and modify it." (of course, that would never happen since it requires some knowledge of the marketplace other than sales volume).

    The RIAA has been in the same situation for years. How many CD's of various genres will fit in a store? If you put every conceivable genre into a music superstore, how many would you end up warehousing year after year with nary a sale? RIAA's solution is to control what's played over the radio (subtlely controlling choice) and limit the number of people they give contracts to. The purpose in rock 'superstars' is to be able to have one item that runs off the shelf. You only have to inventory one item, and customers will by it or nothing else (choice be damned).

    What should we do? RIAA doesn't get a dime of my money. I listen to the music I like, because I enjoy the choice of downloading mp3 from the net. The artist gets my money, and I get to like what I'm listening to (Of course, my wife irritates me with "Can't you get anything popular off the net?", eg. "Can't you download the same inane sh*t that me and all the other sheep are allowed by RIAA to hear?" It's funny how people always seem to clamour to have an aristocracy rule over them.)

    I'll do the same with my software, thank you. Tell Epic, et.al., that you would be glad to buy a copy of the game from them, but you will not go through a restrictive bottleneck like GT. They are an unnecessary and expensive dinosaur of a leech in today's networked world. Like the RIAA, their profit is secured by categorizing and limiting consumer choice through a defunct business model. Damn the model and any company that chooses to live by it.

    Epic, if you're game is any good, you could be much more profitable selling direct to customers. You don't get the store exposure, but you don't need it if you're good, and you keep all the money.
  • Win98 *itself* does not handle the video cards well either.. the DRIVER writers make the drivers that enable Win98 to use the hardware, it's not down to how good win98 is it's down to how good the driver manufacturers are. Drivers for Linux are fewer right now as many companies do not support it to the same level at the moment, this will change.

    On comparable issues (e.g. running TCP/IP services as were raised before) Linux kicks ass over Microsoft products.
    --
  • Freeciv isn't too bad. It's obviously not everyone's cup of tea, and it's a bit behind in the graphics and sound department when you compare it to alpha centauri or Call to Power, but it's atleast enjoyable to play. Unfortunately, this is the only game that I can think of that is opensource that I've really gotten into. Golgatha could possibly be good if someone finishes it, though there hasn't been much activity lately on it from what I've seen.

  • Refuse the shipment when the mailman or UPS person shows up at your door. If you don't get to meet them yourself, write in big black letters "RETURN TO SENDER - LINUX VERSION NOT ENCLOSED".

    Then, to get your point across, call your credit card company/bank, and tell them to cancell the payment, because the item being shipped is not what you ordered in the first place.

    Just a few suggestions.

  • Unfortunately it would seem that you have underestimated the Linux populous. To code a game, or at least partially so for an operating system and then to turn around and simply "not ship" it is just horrid business practices. I am greatly saddened that it would seem your company is no longer driven by success in the market place through a positive end user experience - but your company has turned into one where by you have many deadlines and make exceptions for those who are interested in helping to fund your company.
  • I can think of a couple of reasons to do this, actually...

    1) Gauging interest in the Linux community. If they sell a Windows/Linux hybrid box, the sales will probably be considered as Windows for statistical reasons (it's just the way the statistical agencies do it; it sucks, but that's how it is). It's a lot easier to keep track of downloads than sales, particularly in this case.

    2) This one may actually be more exciting: port potential. Remember that Linux has ports to many architectures. Now that Glide's gone Open-Source, there's potential that it, and subsequently UT, could theoretically be ported to many different architectures. Now, unless you encode the installer in Perl or something (which I very much doubt they would do) you have to make an installer AND executable for each architecture (you have to make the executable regardless). That can add up rather quickly, particularly if there will be many ports. You can't rely on RPM or any other package manager either, since different distros have different systems; your other alternative is to use one of each (which takes up even more space) or write your own installer from scratch which would run on everything. Consider also that the UT media is going to take up almost all of the CD. It makes no sense to have a whole CD just for Linux installers, when you can have them downloadable.

    These are just thoughts; the second one in particular isn't all that probable but it's a possibility. It's something to consider, at any rate.
  • Dear sir or madam,

    I am disturbed by reports that GT has chosen not to include the Linux version of Unreal in it's commercial offering of the game.

    Whilst I can understand and appreciate that it is difficult to offer support for a market of unknown size, especially if there are no regular GT employees who are familiar with the different Linux distributions, I feel that there are alternative solutions which may be beneficial to all concerned.

    The Linux community, as a whole, is used to taking on the role of tecnical support. If enough volunteers (vetted by GT as necessary) could be found, within a reasonable timescale, to take on the role of unpaid, 3rd-party tech support for the game, with a written performance guarantee, would GT be willing to reconsider it's decision?

    I feel that outsourcing all parts of the Linux operation that GT are not comfortable with undertaking would satisfy the gaming markets and improve GT's official sales & profits, without any risk of adverse effects.

    Thank you for your time.

  • How is the any different then buying the windows version and installing the linux binary from the unsupported directory? Either way you are buying a Windows version, and getting the linux game
  • If you need one at all. I like the idea of mailorder and CD vending machines in the retail space. GT, you people need to buy a clue. Anyone who can manage a linux system, get openGL and sound running, will not need much support from a company that burns CD's and puts them in expensive wastefull boxes.
  • If they put the Linux executable in the box on the shelves they'd be bothered with calls from people trying to get to a c prompt or hit the start button so they can play the linux version... you know what I mean. This way everybody wins, and they can keep a d/l count of everyone who is downloading the linux executable, and officially say they don;t support it. Good thinking!
  • Or maybe because they don't think enough people will buy the Linux version, so it's not worth the cost of the boxes or shipping it to the store. Think logically before you flame Microsoft.
  • I hate to break it to you, but your tech support is not able to offer help for the windows version either.

    I bought your game, when I had a borrowed CD in my hot little hands and a CD-Rom burner at my elbow, because I think piracy is wrong.

    The result? Unreal crashed chronically. This same machine runs every other piece of software and many competing games and both Linux and win98 with NO PROBLEMS at all.

    Call tech support. Toll call. 15 minutes of waiting and threading through voice menus. Tech gives me the "stop bothering me I don't want to solve your problem" answer of "download the newest drivers for all your hardware and reinstall".

    No opportunity to get a call number and re-open the same call with the same tech if this does not work, you have to start over with another 15 minute phone pennance.

    It continued to not work, and I waited. A few months later, I got a new video card, and tried again, and again updated all my drivers and the latest Unreal patches. Different errors (failed assertions).

    Back to technical support. Another go-away answer... your video card is not on microsofts "official" list of supported hardware (most hardware is not). We will not support the game. Note that the Unreal requirements on the box I purchased said nothing about "officially supported hardware only". Fine. I chucked it again.

    Finally, a few months later, more patches, and a brand new Nvidia TNT1 video card with 16 MB, one "officially" supported by windows. Continued crashing. Call tech support. More go away answers.

    Finally I gave the *!%$ game to a friend who had a 3dfx card (for whom the game seems pretty solid). So much for buying software...

    So I would recommend not buying ANYTHING with an Unreal engine, not because they do or don't have linux support, but because their software is ambitious but buggy, and their support model is insulting and useless.

    Bill "on a rant" Kilgallon
  • While it seems insulting to the Linux community that GT is refusing to include a Linux binary with UT, take a moment to look at the deeper issue here. The main reason for GT's reluctance (gleaned from the .plan) is that they do not want to support a Linux executable. Look at the number of Linux distributions and their various releases, the number of different versions of XFree86, window managers, etc. A competent support person would need have, at the minimum, a passing familiarity with every flavor of Linux, all the idiosyncracies of the different window managers, and issues with various video cards under XFree86. You can also throw some kernel intricacies into the mix, and you're looking at a support nightmare. Now why they don't just release the Linux binary unsupported, we'll never know...

    Regardless, the freedom that Linux allows is both its strength and its weakness. Most companies probably have a great fear of supporting something on a platform that is (at least currently) so amorphous!

    I'm eager to see what will happen when XFree86 4.0 is released, given that it's intended to provide a (somewhat) more consistent interface for graphics!

  • Personally, I took this from a slightly different perspective. It sounds like they were saying "There is no marketing data on Linux games, so we're not bundling this on the CD (So we can generate some data)". I figure it stands to reason that they'll watch how many times it gets downloaded, and then decide from those numbers just how popular Linux is as a gaming OS. Now this does kinda open things up to misconduct, but I'm sure something can be developed to help that. --This rambling cost nothing... Next time I'll get my $.02 maybe. Rae
  • I hate to say it, but it is impressive just to get Linux versions about the same time as Windows version (heck at all). It costs alot of money to make a game, it make sure it runs on another arch of a OS you are barely supporting anyway is asking quite alot. Now this might have some credit when the Linux version is as popular (or more) as the windows version. I hope developers don't forget about other archs but right now I just like to see good Linux support. Heck I don't even play many games but good game support equals good hardware support (3d video cards, 3d sound drivers, etc.) That is why I'm so excited about Linux game support. Just my 2cents.
  • WARNING:
    The following will offend simple, close-minded individuals.

    Wow... I wish people would take a second or two to actually *think* before they post. The decision to not put a Linux binary on the CD *with* the Windows version is most likely for 2 reasons.

    #1. They don't want every newbie who's trying out Red Hat and has no idea about Linux trying to get it to work. They would have to support installation issues as well as bugs.
    #2. If it is *included* on the Windows CD there is no way for them to know how many people are using UT in Linux.

    By only putting the binaries on the 'net, GT is showing that they like the idea of Linux gaming. Newbie users will be less likely to try it without doing a bit of research. The geeks will be able to play UT in Linux with their *windows* CD and the binaries. They will not have to expend members of their technical support staff to solving issues on Linux. Also, they will be able to get a fairly accurate picture of how many people are actually using UT under Linux by the number of downloads for the binary.

    Amazing! GT doesn't seem like such a bad guy to me, but then again, I'm not a crazy conspirist. Not everything is done by companies because of MS. Companies do what makes them *money*. That's what companies do. Once the Linux crazies (You hardcore folks out there who cannot accept anything that is not 100% GPL and Open-Source) grow the hell up and get over this, companies may actually start really putting some force behind Linux gaming.

    I personally will be running UT under Linux, and can hardly wait. Anything to keep from having to reboot into Windows (Hello uptime!). Now, go buy the game and stop whining. Be sure to show your support of Linux by downloading the binaries direct from the official source. We *want* them to see how many people download it, then they'll see that there *is* money to be made in selling Linux games.

    DISCLAIMER: These ideas were scooped up from deep space, therefore they do not belong to me, my employer, Mickey Mouse, Bill Gates, Linus Torvalds, the United States Government, or even Tux. Enjoy and lighten up people.
  • My vote goes to XPilot. Freeciv is cool too, but since I suck at world domination, I prefer XPilot.
  • Think of this as a test to see which approach is more productiive to the path of more mainstream Linux games - on the one hand we have UT which will not sell the Linux version in a box, but will make it availiable right away in a trackable download.

    On the other hand, you have Q3 which will have a seperate Linux box but will be availiable later.

    I have no idea which approach is best, but I am happy that two major game engines sure to be the basis for many other games are supporting Linux. Other companies will learn from the two different approaches here, and eventually refine the distribution of Linux products in a way that makes sense for businesses as well as the customer base.
  • Within a month there will probably be several patches that you have to download no matter what version you play. I don't think I own a game that can just be installed off the CD without needing a download patch. Quake 2, Starcraft, Unreal, Half-Life. If you buy a PC game you will be downloading something, no matter what's on the CD. iD is a pioneer for providing separate boxes for Windows vs Linux, just to give us a chance to support Linux. I will want to play both versions so I will be downloading something no matter what. Also, they will have a patch within a few weeks of its release, I'm sure, so we'll still be downloading patches. Epic wrote a cross-platform (Windows and x86 Linux) kick-ass game. Anything else they do is automatically forgiven. :)
  • >>I'm not going to drive 2 hours to buy a game I
    >>can't play without spending a few more hours in
    >>long distance charges to download the version I
    >>can play.
    >
    >-- Unless you're using a 300baud modem, or your
    >mommy keeps picking up the phone during your
    >download to remind you to do your Algebra I
    >homework, 5MB is _easily_ less than an hour;
    >certainly not 'a few more hours.'

    So what? The point still stands. Are you saying that since it's only 30 minutes of long distance he has to pay for, it's ok?

    The position being taken is that the LINUX users really don't matter, they can just download what amounts to a patch and to hell with them. I don't know about you, but that pisses me off.

    They thing to do is

    a) Don't buy the game.
    b) Write to them so they know they lost a sale and why.

    As someone else noted, a) alone won't do it, they'll never notice we are missing. b) will let them know the revenue they lost so that they'll think twice about it next time.

    --Ty

  • Re:Funny... (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Here is a clue.

    You create a subdirectory called unsupported.

    Inside this subdirectory you create a directory called RedHat_Linux.

    In this directory you place the files needed to play UR on a Redhat Linux platform.

    I am only buying games that are marked "Cool - It works with Linux" And there are plenty of games from Loki and ID that are supported for Linux that I will be spending my hard earned dollars for.

    As far as Linux Users being loud and obnoxious, obviously you are well qualified to be a judge of loud and obnoxious people.
  • Anyone who has played Driver for the PSX has seen GT ship a game WAY prematurely. Another week, possibly two, and it would've been a sweet game.

    Remember GT stealing, repackaging and reselling a game in Germany? [slashdot.org]

    Don't get me wrong, I appreciate everything Epic has done. They've created a killer game and they are at least releasing executables for Linux... GT has just wussed out. If they want our support, they should reciprocate.
  • This makes no sense! You were willing to buy the windows CD when the linux binary was on the CD, but now that's not and you have to download it, you won't pirate it? There was never going to be a seperate CD for linux. Just the bianry.
  • now that's not and you have to download it, you won't pirate it?

    Meant to say: now that's not and you have to download it, you *want* pirate it?

  • UT demo on my linux box runs faster than on my win98 box.

    Of course, I made a "hack" in my .Xclients file to load UnrealTournament instead of KDE when I want to play. Then the resources are mine for taking! mwa ha ha ha ha ha!

    It's not that easy in Windows. I'd imagine a reboot or 3 would be involved also.
  • On the installation issue..

    Do what Macmillian did with the quake cd's bundle the linux stuff with rpm, put rpm2cpio on the cd and write a small shell script to install the lot. Done. Takes about the same space as a win install.
  • I work in tech. support in the video game industry, and I can tell you that, to include the Linux binaries on the CD would imply support, and a lot of technical support departments in this industry don't have experience in Linux. Yeah, I think it's a bad thing... but it is (currently) the way things are. Plus, as most game companies do, they probably had to make room for Copy Protection on the CD. Again, the way things are.

    Likely, it was a decision not made to imply that Linux users do not matter, simply that they aren't the majority. SBT

    Me, I'm anxiously awaiting the arrival of Q3a for Linux, and yes, I'm buying both win32 and Linux flavors... vote with your dollar people, aww yeah.
  • I don't think you understand. They are still releasing the linux binary, you just have to download it
  • Sincerly I consider that by not delivering Unreal with Linux GT will deliver a bad commercial image to its game. Linux could be considered an outsider and this may be seen by many people as outlaw.

    This has the danger to give an incentive to piracy. Today we have to face the fact that a commercial product can only avoid piracy by creating an image of quality and respectability. Or else it will be either ignored or pirated by a good segment of its potential market.

    I already saw Unreal's demo and was fascinated. If GT produces a good and well strucutured game I would probably buy it. But by cuting legs and probably introducing some burden in the ease to use and compatibility then it could be probable that I would take a look at its pirated version.

    Seems strange? I know a lot of people who have seen The Matrix in pirated videos. Now these same people are storming cinemas and buying official DVDs and videos to see the "real thing". Maybe this has managed to make The Matrix to overpass the popularity of Star Wars in several places. Star Wars had also a big audience. However there was a huge wave to hunt down pirated Star Wars stuff. And sincerly, when I saw it, I was disappointed. I couldn't look at more than 10 minutes. Too childish and too silly for my taste.

    That's how we see things in Russia. If you make a great product you can be sure that people will buy the "real thing". If not, then it's either "fire and forget" or "jolly roger"...

  • Re:Be that as it may be... (Score:3)

    by Hobbex ( 41473 ) on Friday November 19, 1999 @01:38PM (#1518312)

    I have a theory here:

    * Anonymous coward
    * Middle of nowhere but won't say where
    * Secret non-specific "government job"
    * assigned to read geek publications

    YOU ARE A MAN IN BLACK AREN'T YOU!

    Admit it, the place in the middle of nowhere is Area 51.

    We REALLY thought better of you then playing deathmath all day... Don't you have REAL rayguns? Real alien invaders to shoot?

    -
    We cannot reason ourselves out of our basic irrationality. All we can do is learn the art of being irrational in a reasonable way.
  • Well, that's kind of extreme, I'm dissapointed but I'm not pissed like they explicitly promised something and then renigged. I want the game, I will download the linux client, and I will make sure they know that I am dissapointed.

    Refusing the package and making a big stink would probably not accomplish much except to maybe reinforce the stereotype that linux users are zealout asses. No, I'm at leas encouraged that they are doing a Linux port at all, let alone at the same time. The demo's were good and the bug-trackers were very knowledgeable. It is just a poor decision to decide to not ship it at this late point, but maybe next time it will be a different story. If not, _then_ I'll flame 'em.
  • I am a realitivly new Linux user.

    Despite this fact I have come to understand the help yourself and rtfm mentality. The part of GT's logic I find hard to follow is the cost/analysis they seem to have done. Yes their support personel may not have very extensive Linux knowledge, but I don't think that there are a lot of Linux users out there who even USE tech support.

    I find it hard to believe that any Linux user who would actually buy the boxed version with the binary Linux executables in it would be the type of user who would call tech support.

    Yes I had to fight to get my SoundBlaster. I pissed away a few hours with pnpdump and isapnp. I'm more knowledgable as a result.

    Its my opinion that GT made a mistake doing this. I WILL wait for the boxed Linux version of Q3. I would have bought UT as well. The demo rocks.

    Too bad GT doesn't have a better grasp on they type of people that most Linux users are :)
  • What's the difference here folks? Is it because it's "just a game"

    I would say so. At least to me, I make a distinction between entertainment software and operational software. For the latter category, I prefer to use the best choice available (which usually ends up being open source, but that's a different thread). When I'm working, the software had better work; who cares about stupid add-ons such as the Microsoft paperclip? On the other hand, when I play a computre game, I want all of the bells & whistles -- sound, CD music, textured backgrounds, etc. I'm sorry, but none of the open source games I've seen come even close to that of Railroad Tycoon II.

  • Damn! How'd I forget that one? Thanks for reminding me. I gotta go find it now. :)
  • What incentive, then, will they have to include Linux binaries in future releases? The mindset will be that the Linux users will buy the game anyways and they would simply allow you to download them online, without support, although the other supported OSes get it for the same (high) price, part of which I'm assuming FOR the support. The risk is that the Linux users will never get support, and the distributor is still making money. So what will they care?
  • hmm, I would place an order right now on my visa card, $50, for the retail linux version of Unreal Tournament.

    Shoot, I will buy two copies so I can make a dedicated server on my box (on a T1).

    I refuse to buy windows software though. The last piece of windows software I bought was Quake2.. and guess how I played it?

    If GT is so DUMB that they actually REMOVED linux support, when a large portion of users have been WAITING for it, I don't want to support them. Luckily because they funded Epic, not buying the game doesn't hurt Epic that much- it just hurts GT.
  • isn't what it's cracked up to be. I should know... I used to be in tech support. Let me explain! I was one of those FEW people who actually tried to help. I had customers BEGGING me not to tell them to reboot or reinstall! I got my butt chewed more than once just for fixing someone's problem!

    I got a little story for ya. One of the other guys, a young kid, started racking up massively good call stats; we figured out why. When he'd get a call, he'd ask if the problem was hardware or software; if the user replied, "Software", he'd say, "We don't do software support" and drop the call; if the user said, "Hardware", he'd hit the drop button immediately. He got promoted.

    While this story may not be indicative of ALL tech support agencies, it is certainly representative of the underlying business plan of most. Get the customer OFF THE PHONE and TAKE THE NEXT CALL.

    That's tech support for ya!

  • Take a look at WorldForge [worldforge.org]. While we're still early in the development stage, we're aiming to make exactly that:

    An open source, free, massively multiplayer online role-playing game that doesn't suck.

    How do we wish to do this? Well, take a look at what makes open-source software cool in general: the freedom you get with it. Open source allows you to modify a software product to whatever you want it to do (assuming you have the skill to do so). We're planning to make WorldForge not a one-time release, packaged game, but rather a gaming system, that allows you, the player/system administrator/story writer to customise it to suit your world.

    If you want to help us reach this goal - and it is looking good, we have many talented coders/graphics artists/musicians/story writers - then feel free to come by our website and take a look :).

  • one reboot
    --
    "Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
  • Epic already had space allocated to the linux exe, but GT made them take it out, why? beacuse of *support costs* nothing more, GT's people didn't know anything about linux, and it would have cost them a ton of money to teach them. By putting it up on there website, they are still able to get all the linux gamers to play the game, but they don't have to pay to retrain there phone staff, or field calls about it... (remember, *one* call to tech support whipes out *all* the profits on that box...)
    --
    "Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"

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