LittleBigPlanet Delayed Due To Qur'an-Sampling Audio 995
Several readers have pointed out that Sony's much-awaited LittleBigPlanet has hit a snag and will be delayed worldwide. The delay came after it was discovered that a song licensed for use in the soundtrack contained audio samples from the Qur'an. All advanced copies sent to retailers for the target release of October 21 in North America, 22 in PAL territories, and 24 in the UK and Ireland, have been recalled. "The post, by user 'Solid08', indicates of the specific references in the composition: 'In the 18th second: "kollo nafsin tha'iqatol mawt", literally: "Every soul shall have the taste of death' ... almost immediately after, in the 27th second: "kollo man alaiha fan", literally: "All that is on earth will perish."'"
ANd? (Score:5, Insightful)
So what if it has that there?
Re:ANd? (Score:5, Interesting)
So what if it has that there?
Perhaps they merely do not wish to anger potential customers now that it's been discovered and publicized. This isn't the first time it's happened or anything. For example, look at Zelda Ocarina of Time: original versions of the cartridge contained Muslim chanting in the background of the fire temple music, which was taken out of later copies. Later re-releases of the game on the Gamecube also changed some symbols in-game that resembled the crescent moon. No real reason to remove these things other than to prevent conflicts among the audience.
Re:ANd? (Score:4, Insightful)
Sony is pulling it to avoid offending anyone who would not like phrases from the Qur'an used in association with such a game.
In my mind Sony is actually going above and beyond to do the correct thing here. (Never thought that I would find myself typing those words.) I still believe they have a long way to go to make up for all of the DRM crap that they have pulled in the past though.
Re:ANd? (Score:5, Insightful)
Cowering from bullies is not the right thing to do.
Re:ANd? (Score:5, Insightful)
I have to see this as Sony paying respect, not as them knuckling under to threats. I would like to think that they would do the same thing if it was a passage from a Buddhist text which had offended Buddhists with its inclusion. (ashamed that I can't name a Buddhist text without looking it up)
Re:ANd? (Score:5, Insightful)
Neither deserves to get their way just because they want it, yet some followers of both use terrible means to try to enforce their way. Pretty sad, eh?
Re:ANd? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:ANd? (Score:4, Insightful)
Everything offends someone.
freedom of speech means you can say what you want. Of course, nobody has to stay an listen.
Re:ANd? (Score:5, Insightful)
And that's the thing. Assume Squaresoft released a game that happens to offend many christians, for example by having the bad guy have an uncanny similarity to popular depictions of Jesus. Do you think that game or subsequent Squaresoft games would still sell well in countries like the USA? At the very least they'd get lots of negative PR in mainstream media. Lots of negative PR means lots of lost sales. Lots of lost sales means lots of lost money. Lots of lost money means the shareholders want to have a word with whoever's responsible for making the bad guy look like Jesus (and not catching that before release).
Free speech is nice and dandy - if you're a real person. If you're a corporation you can speak freely all you want as long as it doesn't negatively affect sales. If removing Qur'an chants from the game makes it more likely that the game will sell better in muslimic regions then removing Qur'an chants is most probably a good idea.
Re:ANd? (Score:5, Funny)
It has lesbians too, and it's still incredibly popular, the only thing that held it back was that part of it's budget was redirected towards FF7.
Re:ANd? (Score:4, Insightful)
Lots of negative PR means lots of lost sales? It depends on the source of the negative PR and on the target audience.
The mainstream media rarely mentions GTA in a positive way, but it hasn't hurt the series' sales any because your average GTA player takes Fox News' approbation as a Good Thing.
Re:ANd? (Score:4, Interesting)
It's not paying respect, it's being a coward and knuckling under to idiotic demands. I don't care whether somebody believes in something or not, to demand something like this is completely out of line and should be ignored by all right-thinking people.
Just because it's "religious" does not make it also not stupid.
I will absolutely not be purchasing this game because of Sony's actions on this matter.
Re:ANd? (Score:4, Insightful)
"And not taking the feelings of others into consideration is?"
Irrelevant.
"...you'd be okay with that?"
If a game says something I don't like, I don't buy it. I do not apply pressure to force the artists to remove their content.
"What's the problem?"
Forcing an artist to change what they do becasue it offends someone is the antithesis of freedom.
Re:ANd? (Score:4, Insightful)
Sony could have had a patch released for the game, which is what the Muslim group that complained suggested.
You know, save the ton of money wasted recalling, reprinting and reshipping the product and not piss off the fans that weren't offended.
I'm sorry, but recalling was not the smartest or best choice. Instead of offending a religion, they've pissed off those that wouldn't have been offended. They would have ended up with fewer people with negative opinions on the game with a patch.
Re:ANd? (Score:5, Interesting)
Which is the religion of peace again?
None of them?
Re:ANd? (Score:5, Insightful)
If you're an American there are parts of your own country where that isn't true
[Citation Needed]
Re:ANd? (Score:5, Informative)
The post, by user 'Solid08', indicates of the specific references in the composition: "In the 18th second: "ÙfÙ ÙÙØ ØØئÙØ© ØÙÙ...ÙØ" ("kollo nafsin tha'iqatol mawt", literally: 'Every soul shall have the taste of death')... almost immediately after, in the 27th second: "ÙfÙ Ù...Ù ØÙÙSÙØ ÙØÙ" ("kollo man alaiha fan", literally: 'All that is on earth will perish')." It also comments: "I asked many of my friends online and offline and they heard the exact same thing that I heard easily when I played that part of the track. Certain Arabic hardcore gaming forums are already discussing this, so we decided to take action by emailing you before this spreads to mainstream attention. We Muslims consider the mixing of music and words from our Holy Quran deeply offending. We hope you would remove that track from the game immediately via an online patch, and make sure that all future shipments of the game disk do not contain it."
So what? (Score:5, Funny)
The Qur'an is out of copyright by now, so what's the problem?
Re:So what? (Score:4, Insightful)
The problem seems to be worry that you'll get the same sort of reaction from a group of people whose religion tells them to burn effigies over cartoons, or stick knives in people's chests, for "offending" them.
Just look at what happened to Theo Van Gogh and Salman Rushdie, to name just two.
Now ask yourself whether that's really a "religion of peace" or something else. I can understand why the Little Big Planet studios were afraid of this.
The fuck is going on here? (Score:5, Insightful)
How many slashdot trolls had mod points today?
Seriously - this has meaning. The guess that they pulled the game because of fears over rioting/threats or actual violence is a pretty good guess given the "objectionable" content that's being removed from the game.
Would you think they'd have removed it for a couple of lines in Yiddish? Or a Biblical quotation, or a Celtic pagan quotation? You can be 100% sure that they wouldn't.
Give Parent Poster his karma back. This wasn't "flamebait."
Actually... (Score:4, Informative)
The prior Pope did actually explicitly apologize for the crusades, among other things.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1071456 [npr.org]
The current Pope has also apologized for other failings of the Catholic church.
Re:So what? (Score:4, Funny)
"The Qur'an is out of copyright by now, so what's the problem?"
Fanbois, with big knives.
Just be happy the RIAA hasn't discovered their methods.
Re:So what? (Score:4, Funny)
The Qur'an is out of copyright by now, so what's the problem?
It was out of copyright, until the Sunni Bono Copyright Extension Act was past.
Re:So what? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:So what? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, but the West left most of their worst religious-nutball-inspired-violence behind hundreds of years ago. Muslims are still doing it.
Most but not all. I wouldn't want my religion being judged based on abortion clinic bombers.
It is fair to say that the Islamic world has a serious problem with violent extremists, a problem that must be addressed.
To mockingly say "Religion of Peace indeed", and imply that Muslims in general are engaging in violence, is not only unfair it's bigotry.
Re:So what? (Score:5, Insightful)
The scale is nowhere near the same, and you know it. When millions of Muslims protest (violently), but only dozens of Christians are involved in clinic bombings (and those haven't happened in many years), it's disingenuous to compare one with the other.
Besides which, the real difference between the two aren't the modern followers, it's the founders. Jesus was a pretty nice guy who could be counted on to provide extra booze at a party (even if he was a mite touchy about conducting business in a temple). Mohammed raped and slaughtered thousands of people, kept slaves, and taught his followers to kill anyone who disagreed with them (and not in parables that people can take out of context, but in direct orders). Not even remotely similar.
Re:So what? (Score:5, Insightful)
umm, scales being unequal and all that jazz, you're still a bigot. mohammad didn't rape and slaughter thousands. he was elevated to the leader of his tribe as he gained more followers, and in a effort to protect him and his followers he lead muslims in war.
its true that there was slavery in arabia at the time of mohammad, roughly 650 AD (i hear there was slavery in the US till not too long ago)... the religion brought rules and fair treatment of slaves to the a region that even the arabs now call a region plagued by 'jahilia' (ignorance). if you read the quran instead of spouted off charged sound bites, you'd know that the quran OK's the practice of slavery in one line, and in the next line says "but it is best if you set them free". repeatedly in the quran it talks about freeing a slave (the punishment for manslaughter, the cost of remarrying your wife, the cost of breaking your vow) and prohibits both the abuse of slaves and the sources of slaves to just prisoners of war.
personally i find the fact that this book, revealed in the 7th century to a people who called themselves 'ignorant', just set up a system for the ethical treatment of slaves and prisoners of war in one deft move impressive. it also set the framework for abolitionism in the middle east a full 12 centuries before abe lincoln. the practice of slavery is now antiquated, and disgusting universally, and that includes the 1.2billion muslims in this world.
regarding this supposed order to kill anyone who disagreed with them...? what? also in the quran, chapter 2, verse 256. "there is no compulsion in religion". and again throughout the quran it talks about people who refuse to believe, and it tells the believers to ignore them, that god has made them this way and that god will judge them fairly.
the quran was actually very very liberal a book in its time and in many ways still is.
the problem with islam today is two-fold:
a) the majority of muslims suffer from a lack of education and are as a result easily swayyed and cowed and tricked by eloquent bastards who preach hatred (there's 1.2 billion of them, and they're not all cheerfully educated in the west, and of the ones educated in the west there are two types, the type who stays in the west and tries to live a comfortable good life and the type who'll go back to their third world home and preach of the evils of the west, think harvard educated redneck bigot)
and b) that a muslims have a hard time seeing reading between the lines of the qur'an. the qur'an again and again asks muslims to be better human beings, to let god judge, to be kind and save life ("if you save a life its as though you've saved all of humanity, and if you take a life its as though you've slaughtered all of humanity") and instead read the surface of the qur'an, which for example sets the punishment for a wayward wife as a light, beating that leaves no marks, in a time when wayward wives were killed and buried by the next morning.
the quran set up a lot of rules for being a good muslim in 7th century arabia, and those should be a framework for being a good muslim in our connected 21st century. like the constitution of the US, which itself had rules to govern slaves, but the framework has been built upon and changed, always mindful of its original intent.
Re:So what? (Score:4, Informative)
Setting a framework is good. Action is better. When was slavery actually abolished in Muslim lands, and why?
Slavery in England had been banned since at least 1215, possibly 1102, and serfdom died out by 1600; a court ruling in 1772 confirmed that no English law permitted the condition of slavery to exist in the country any way. Slavery was abolished across the whole Empire in 1807. The United States abolished slavery in 1865. Saudi Arabia abolished slavery in 1962.
the practice of slavery is now antiquated, and disgusting universally, and that includes the 1.2billion muslims in this world.
Antiquated. That's a funny way to refer to an institution that's been gone for all of 46 years.
Re:So what? (Score:4, Informative)
That's a very interesting kind of defensive war he waged there then, the one in which borders of his realm expanded manyfold...
It also okays sexual slavery and rape [wikipedia.org] (and explicitly identifies it as a sole workaround for the prohibition on adultery, effectively promoting it).
Oh, it's a great book for the 7th century, no arguing. Now if only the book itself didn't say that it's the final and most authoritative source on the opinion of God on all the subjects it cover, and forbade ever changing any dogma enshrined therein...
Re:So what? (Score:4, Insightful)
The line can be drawn quite simply.
Practice highly visible public heresy, for example by quoting particularly unflattering passages of a particular religion's holy book.
Now: how many death threats do you receive?
If the answer is not "zero", then you can start with the snide remarks.
I can't recall ever hearing about someone who declined to publish something naughty about Christianity because they feared for their lives. But the same thing happens routinely with Islam.
There is a qualitative difference between having a small group of nutballs angry at you and having the government of a major middle-eastern power decide that you should die because you insulted their religion.
Re:So what? (Score:5, Insightful)
In all of the cases you mention, religion was not a major component. Yugoslav wars were centered around ethnicity, with religion being merely a partially determining factor for the former. Holocaust was very much not religious, though some WW2 atrocities were (e.g. Ustashe). And so on.
Here's another take on it. Let's see how many countries in the world still have death penalty for blasphemy and/or apostasy on the books:
Guess what's the official state religion in all of them? And don't give me crap about "tyrannical monarchies" - more than half of the countries on the list above are republics, "Islamic" or otherwise.
Re:So what? (Score:5, Insightful)
Please link to some news stories of Christian suicide bombings. Then your silly "everybody does it" argument might at least be factual. (It's still a ridiculous argument, even if everybody did do it -- but everybody doesn't.)
Sure (Score:5, Interesting)
Here's one [theglobalist.com]:
But that's rather beside the point. Suicide bombings are committed almost exclusively in defense of homeland against occupying forces (or, rather, the belief that such a thing is occurring), especially forces of a different religion, and especially when those doing the defending live in relative poverty. There are very few cases of countries with poor, heavily Christian populations that are occupied by people of other religions. Ergo, hardly any Christian suicide bombings.
Re:So what? (Score:4, Informative)
Christians have learned all about timers:
http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN2719258620070428 [reuters.com]
They're also quite fond of guns:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F01E7DC1630F934A15757C0A962958260 [nytimes.com]
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-16035695.html [highbeam.com]
And we reproduced the lines here? (Score:4, Insightful)
I thought writing the lines in text was a reproduction just as much as the audio? Yet /. just posted them?
Or maybe I'm just confused and there is a difference between writing them and the audio copy.
Re:And we reproduced the lines here? (Score:5, Interesting)
Why would reproducing a work that has long since been in the public domain be a problem? If it is, hundreds of publishers are in deep shit.
From what the article says, it seems some Muslims got offended at their holy scriptures being put to music. So, Sony is bowing to a few fundamentalist Muslims to keep from generating any bad press about how they offend Islam or whatever.
Personally, I think if they're going to start bowing down to any fringe group that complains on the Internet, they're going to have a hard time releasing any games ever again.
People are so scared of "terrorists", and associate Islam so closely with those terrorists, that they are scared to death of offending anyone that calls themselves a Muslim. This just makes it much easier for the radical wing of Islam to not only be heard, but to wield influence out of proportion with their numbers. Of course, you could argue the same thing has been done with regard to the more radical wings of Christianity in other spheres as well.
Re:And we reproduced the lines here? (Score:4, Informative)
Well, if that's the case, the solution is simple: Re-release the song, but instead of just sampling those two parts, sing the entire book! I smell a platinum record!
Uh Oh. (Score:5, Insightful)
What are you smoking? (Score:5, Insightful)
how come any time someone talks about what's wrong in the Muslim faith, the knee jerk reaction is from a bunch of /b/tards who want to shit all over other religions?
This has nothing to do with the argument, and NeutronCowboy's argument is "crap" as he puts it. It is entirely possible for MULTIPLE religions to be wrong and trying to distract from Islam's problems by attacking another religion is a poor debate tactic, a desperate attempt to distract the argument from something he knows he can't honestly defend.
Remember, hell is exothermic [pinetree.net].
Re:Uh Oh. (Score:4, Insightful)
1) Personally? I'd like to introduce you to some of my friends. Sadly, you don't seem to know enough Muslims.
2) Sheik Tantawi
3) Adultery is not a punishable? I'd dare you to find one RELIGION where that's not punishable (and no, Hedonism doesn't count).
4) I've got a few more: Sayyid al-Qimni, Abd-al-Karim, Ridwan al-Sayyid.... a quick google brings up plenty of moderate Muslim scholars who aren't considered apostate by most other Muslims. They are, of course, apostates by the standard of radical Fundamentalists, but that's not what we're talking about, are we? Unless, of course, you're arguing that the majority of Muslims are radical Fundamentalists. In which case, I can't help you.
What are they afraidn of? (Score:4, Insightful)
They just want to be sensitive (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, it's amazing how sensitive people can be when offending some religious group might get your building bombed or your artists shot or stabbed.
Re:What are they afraidn of? (Score:5, Funny)
Just want to clarify (Score:5, Insightful)
It does seem to be a double standard (Score:5, Insightful)
The Church of England got miffed when one of their churches was featured prominently in one of the levels of Resistance: Fall Of Man. This is a seemingly bigger offense than including a couple snippets of the Quran, yet Sony refused to recall the game.
Qur'an verses in media (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't see the big deal here, since Muslims are supposed to want to distribute the Qur'an. But I can see how people would be extra paranoid about offending Muslims, since some of them take offense violently.
To quote Bill Hicks (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah? And? So? What?
Re:To quote Bill Hicks (Score:5, Informative)
From: http://kotaku.com/5065106/nsiders-letter-to-sony-and-media-molecule-re-quran-references [kotaku.com]
"We Muslims consider the mixing of music and words from our Holy Quran deeply offending. We hope you would remove that track from the game immediately via an online update, and make sure that all future shipments of the game disk do not contain it."
Personally, I consider censoring art "deeply offending." Sony, you're losing a customer if you cave to the demands of any religious group. Hey Muslims, don't buy the game.
Different Sony, right? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Different Sony, right? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Different Sony, right? (Score:4, Informative)
It's all about calculated risk - piss off some English Catholics, you get some peeved letters in the local paper. Piss off Muslims, you get explosions, beheadings, and people living out their lives in hiding.
Everytime you self-censor Islamic references, (Score:5, Insightful)
the radicals and the terrorists win acceptance of the idea that they alone get to dictate how the world handles their pet delusion.
Big Deal! (Score:5, Funny)
My pvp guild in WoW says that EVERY DAY!!!!
Brian Eno & David Byrne (Score:5, Interesting)
Eno and Byrne had a song called with Quran verses in the 80's and they were told by some imam that it was blasphemy to put the words of god to "grooves" (Byrne's word I think), so they took the song off the album.
Help! Help! I'm being repressed! (Score:5, Insightful)
There is no right to "not to be offended". Especially when the group in question, or at least its more vocal components, respond to satire and criticism with riots, bombs, and assassination. In some parts of the world, all it takes is an ill-founded rumor that someone interprets as a slight to Islam to trigger riots and mob violence. The solution isn't to appease the mob. If people act like thugs, they should be treated like thugs.
Give us a call when you get tired of living in the dark ages.
Audio samples from the Qur'an? (Score:5, Funny)
Would that be the original release or the digitally remastered 5.1 version from just a couple of years ago? Personally, I prefer the vinyl version because digital just can't carry the warmth of Allah's vocals and that sweet guitar.
A Muslim is not Islam (Score:5, Insightful)
... the licensed LBP soundtrack song 'Tapha Niang' by Muslim artist Toumani Diabate's Symmetrical Orchestra uses voice excerpts from the Qur'an in its musical composition.
We Muslims consider the mixing of music and words from our Holy Quran deeply offending.
What's this "we" shit?
Changing culture... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm convinced that this sort of thing is a last gasp amongst the extremists to hold onto the old ways. The fact is that the world is changing and nobody can stop it. The Middle East is being exposed to the outside world via the internet and other media. The religious hardliners are realizing that they're losing their hold on the people and I suppose like most people they don't like change.
I realize American imperialism is brought up as the reason for this violence. But I'm convinced that's bullshit. The widespread dissemination of foreign cultures is the more real and subtle threat.
I think it's similar to certain Christian groups in this country coming out trying to denounce evolution and force creationism on people. Deep down they realize their religion is being marginalized and are grasping at straws trying to make it relevant.
The problem is that they're confusing a crumbling power structure for faith when the two aren't connected. There's no reason whatsoever why a person can't be devoutly religious and still accept science and progress.
The key difference, however, is that Muslim extremists are more likely to blow things up to get their way, or at least threaten to do so. Sure, you get the occasional Christian nut who tries to shoot an abortion doctor or something, but that's the extent of it. But Christians consistently denounce the act. On the other hand, at best Muslims won't say anything at all and at worst will run into the streets in celebration.
But ultimately these small victories are insignificant in the long run. And having heard some guys complaining about how Middle Eastern is growing increasingly liberal the days of religious extremism are numbered.
Political correctness has crippled America. By no means am I endorsing bigotry and racism, but we should be able to have open discourse about issues without it devolving into claims of racism.
The percentage of the Muslim population in the US is .6% to 1%. The last time I checked we still had free speech and the presence of this passage in a game is not intentionally offensive from what I can tell.
When Andres Serrano dumped a crucifix in urine and photographed it he wasn't banned from displaying his work. Hell, a nun actually stated in an interview that the work was not blasphemous but rather an example of what people have done to Christ.
This Muslim's buying... (Score:4, Informative)
... and I know a lot about Islam. I teach it to other Muslims. Yes, the religion teaches that the Quran must not recited in conjunction with music. It must be vocal only, although most of the reciters inflect their voice so that it is beautiful to hear, much like music is. The musician that Sony licensed it from should be contacted about it. I wouldn't blame Sony for it. But I can see why some Muslims might be offended by it. Grow up. It's only two phrases, not an entire passage. I personally think it is kind of cool to have it in a game, as long as it is innocuous and not used to promote an anti-Islamic agenda (other posters here have cut and pasted text for that). "Bismillah" ("in the name of God") is in The Bohemian Rhapsody by Queen and I love it everytime I hear it. And then Beelzebul shortly thereafter takes me back to the D&D days...
Pastafarians! Rise up! (Score:5, Funny)
The Noodly appendages of FSM command you to rise up and slay with Prego sauce anyone who offends His Noodliness by including words of wisdom from his Great Cookbook in their songs or slashdot posts. Unless, of course, proper accrediting is given, including a sprinkle of oregano and paprika.
Re:Peace (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Peace (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Peace (Score:5, Funny)
and for everyone else, there's the old testament
Re:Peace (Score:5, Funny)
And the bit about the moneylenders in the temple frightens both the capitalists AND the televangelists. That's right, you rich greedy bastards, when Jesus comes back, he's totally going medieval on all your asses.
Re:Peace (Score:4, Funny)
Um, no. He might go "Roman" on their asses, but it will probably be a new testament hand slap:
"oh, come on you big thillies, you knooow thatth bad!"
What ever happened to the pillar of salt justice or city leveling anger of the old testament god?
Not being a follower, but having read the bible, I always wondered why, despite being referred to as male, "God" got emasculated in the new testament.
Re:Peace (Score:5, Funny)
He settled down and had a kid.
Re:Peace (Score:5, Informative)
The more enthusiastic priests and ministers quite like these ones though:
"And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him."
and
"If there be found among you ... that ... hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them ... Then shalt thou ... stone them with stones, till they die."
Re:Peace (Score:4, Insightful)
That's all great, but all of the most cheesy lines are from the Old Testament. Now Christians also have the New Testament, and the majority of them worldwide (all Catholics, all Orthodox, most Protestants) believe that the New Testament had done away with those old commandments, so that they're no longer in force, and also don't take the suspect lines from NT (such as "Not to Bring Peace, But a Sword") literally. Of course, there is also a "fire and brimstone", stone-the-gays minority that believes they're very much in force, but it's a tiny minority - and the one largely ostracized.
Can you point me at the equivalent of the New Testament in Islam that would discard the laws such as stoning for adultery or beheading for apostasy, or name a mainstream Islamic school of law that considers those laws to not be in force today? Have you ever met a non-homophobe Muslim?
Re:Peace (Score:5, Insightful)
"Have you ever met a non-homophobe Muslim?"
Absolutely. This is a retarded question attempting to pigeonhole a huge group of people simply because it's easier than treating people like individuals.
Re:Peace (Score:4, Interesting)
Well it is, you know, kind of written in their religion that they have to kill the homosexuals.
I have a hard time believing that most people who call themselves Muslim actually practice and follow their religion. (Same goes with any religion, really.)
I don't get why people cling to religion. Sure, people say they're catholic/christian/jewish/muslin/etc, but that's usually a cultural thing.
The number of people who actually BELIEVE their religion is much, much smaller. And the number of people who actually adhere to their religion's laws is infinitesimal.
Re:Peace (Score:5, Funny)
Have you ever met a non-homophobe Muslim?
I don't know, but then again, "Do you hate homosexuals?" isn't really the best conversation starter with a new friend.
Re:Peace (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Peace (Score:4, Informative)
Hi, I'm a non-homophobe muslim.
Wish I could say I was pleased to make your acquaintance you ignorant, prejudiced and ill informed person, but I'm not.
Re:Peace (Score:5, Informative)
I apologize for my previous comment. It was made in anger. Apart from your prejudice showing, your post appeared to be that of a reasonable person.
How many muslim's do you know? How many countries have you known them in? How many different age groups, races, social classes have they belonged to?
You think that by talking to a handful of muslim's you have a grasp on the entirety of the beliefs of 1 billion+ people?
I am a non-homophobe muslim. My wife is highly educated and an equal partner in my marriage, she does not wear a burkha or even a scarf. I do not think Jews are evil, that America is a great Satan, or that infidels should be slaughtered en masse.
Do not presume to think that I'm a non-practicing muslim either. I've never had alcohol, or eaten meats I'm not allowed to. I fast, and I pray. I contribute to my mosque, I pay zakah, and have been for umrah several times. I hope to go for Hajj soon. Insha'allah.
The assumptions you make from a handful of individuals that you do not understand are the foundation of all types of bigotry. From relatively harmless ones like 'women are bad drivers', to dangerous ones like 'black people are dumber than whites'.
Re:Peace (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Peace (Score:5, Funny)
I thought he said, "blessed are the cheesemakers."
Comment removed (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Peace (Score:5, Funny)
I think not.
Best regards,
UTW
Consider starting.
Re:Peace (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Peace (Score:5, Insightful)
Either way, I believe you're misguided if you believe the only reason why the so-called terrorism exists is because the Qu'ran advocates mass murder of infidels.
Unfortunately for American media and the US government, reality is much more complex than that.
Re:Peace (Score:4, Informative)
This fact is often understated. The average Muslim is just about as religious as the average Christian. That being said we don't see rioting in the streets (all that often) because of religious differences. It's usually the leadership (and the Fundamentalist versions of Brown Shirts) that spur things on.
Re:Peace (Score:4, Insightful)
That is quite an important (and occasionally overlooked) point; the most dangerous people in the world are those with nothing left to lose.
Re:Peace (Score:4, Insightful)
You seriously lack perspective. Look again...with an open mind...
In response to items like:
"10/15/2008 Afghanistan Lashkar Gah 6 0 Six local police are taken out in a brutal Taliban ambush on their checkpoint."
I suggest:
US strike kills 9 al Qaeda and Taliban in North Wazirstan
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2008/10/us_strike_kills_9_al.php [longwarjournal.org]
US kills 6 in strike in Baitullah Mehsud's territory
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2008/10/us_kills_6_in_strike.php [longwarjournal.org]
US Kills al Qaeda in Iraq's deputy commander
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2008/10/us_kills_6_in_strike.php [longwarjournal.org]
When we do it, its framed as a 'strike against $evil_people' not as an invasion force killing people in their homes, like when they fight back.
In response to something like:
"10/14/2008 Afghanistan Uruzgan 9 6 Two children are among nine civilians murdered when Taliban bombers target a minibus."
how about:
Unmanned US drone kills school children...
http://feeds.bignewsnetwork.com/index.php?sid=403793 [bignewsnetwork.com]
What do you think would be written if it had been their unmanned drone and our children?
And as for this:
"10/13/2008 Pakistan Murid Wal 1 0 A young man is forced by honor to kill his mother when she refuses to break off an 'illicit' relationship."
Gee that sounds awful.. but doesn't REALLY sound much different than this:
"An 18 year old boy, Sean Powell, was shot to death in his car outside the home of the married teacher he had been having an affair with. Local police have arrested the woman's husband, Eric Mclean, in the shooting."
Same motivation, Same result, same difference. Oh wait... you mean to say it was a state sanctioned murder? gotcha...luckily we have those too...
"Kevin Watts, 27, was pronounced dead on Thursday at 6:17 pm Texas time (2317 GMT), spokeswoman Michelle Lyons told AFP.
It was Texas' tenth execution since the start of the year, and the second execution to take place this week. Ten more inmates are scheduled to be killed in Texas by the end of November."
Granted we don't do it for adultry... but on the other hand, we don't exactly have the best track record for even properly ensuring our victims are guilty...
http://www.abanet.org/irr/hr/fall97/deathpen.html [abanet.org]
Family values facade (Score:4, Insightful)
Yet all of the Muslims I've ever met are charming, peaceful friendly people. Big on family values, very law abiding, and socially responsible.
You probably haven't gotten to know them very well. The majority of people are dishonest, hypocritical, untrustworthy and at least condone some measure of violence against their opponents. This is despite any religious or political facade that underlies the way they think and act.
Show me a "family values" person and chances are that they are intolerant, prejudiced, and hypocritical.
Re:Family values facade (Score:5, Funny)
Wow, either you live somewhere seriously shitty or are projecting. The majority of people are honest, trustworthy and non-violent (but I agree on the hypocritical). If the majority really were dishonest, untrustworthy and violent society just wouldn't function.
Re:Peace (Score:5, Insightful)
Hmm... do religions of peace say things like:
(Sura 2:191-193) "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."
(Sura 8:12) "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them."
(Sura 8:59-60) "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."
(Sura 9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and fought jihad with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant."
(Sura 9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
(Sura 9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them"
(Sura 9:41) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and fight jihad with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew."
Yeah. I'm sure they were worried about "offending" people whose idea of responding is to kill anyone who "offends" them. Like, say, Theo Van Gogh or Salman Rushdie.
Sad day to see this happen.
Re:Peace (Score:4, Interesting)
"I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children." (Leviticus 26:22)
"Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourself every girl who has never slept with a man." (Numbers 31:17-18)
"The Lord commands: "... slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women" (Ezechial 9:4-6)
"When the Lord delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the males .... As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves." (Deuteronomy 20:13-14)
"You will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you." (Deuteronomy 28:53)
"The Lord said to Joshua [...] 'you are to hamstring their horses.' " (Exceedingly cruel.) (Joshua 11:6)
"... Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead with the edge of the sword and; also the women and little ones.... every male and every woman that has lain with a male you shall utterly destroy." (Judges 21:10-12)
"This is what the Lord says: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass .... And Saul ... utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword." (1 Samuel 15:3,7-8)
"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their women with child ripped open." (Hosea 13:16)
"A curse on him who is lax in doing the LORD's work!
A curse on him who keeps his sword from bloodshed!" (Jeremiah 48:10)
Buddha says (Score:5, Insightful)
Buddha says I should forgive you and remind you that two wrongs don't make a right.
Flying spaghetti monster says (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Peace (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Peace (Score:4, Insightful)
Please my friend can we stop with the Islam bashing? I'm begging.
I'm just a good old Canadian boy who happened to marry into a family of Muslims and let me tell you the only thing that the entire lot of them want to do is have six-thousand course dinner parties that go on for hours and dance. I'm serious.
If they worry about anything, which they don't seem to much, it's that their religion has been hijacked by nutcases. I guess we could talk about how the nutcases seem to always come from fundamentalist dictatorships that America had a hand in creating and supporting (The House of Saud, the Wahib clan, The Shah of Iran, the Taliban, Musharraf, Assad).
But that is another discussion. If anyone holds to the belief that inside the heart of every Muslim is a bloodthirsty jihadist looking for the right time to strike, well, you couldn't be more wrong. Why not just go with the flow and enjoy the fact that middle eastern women tend towards the large-chested and friendly?
Re:Peace (Score:5, Insightful)
I'll make you a deal.
You stop talking about Muslims as if they were a homogeneous hive mind, and I'll stop considering you a flame-stoking bigot.
Re:Peace (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Peace (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Peace (Score:5, Insightful)
Well done. You just pointed out a different religious text that tells it's followers to kill and teaches hate. That in no way it a counter argument to the posters point.
Re:Peace (Score:5, Insightful)
Ephesians 5:22-23 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church, and he is the saviour of the body. - That's right. Get back in the kitchen! Get back to submitting and quit telling me to take out the garbage.
That's one of the Bible verses which is most often quoted out of context. If you read it in context [biblegateway.com] then the wife gets off lightly. She only has to submit to her husband: he has to sacrifice his life for her.
Deuteronomy 22:28 If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her. - Pants are bad but rape is OK as long as you pay for it and marry her.
It's not saying that rape is OK. This needs to be read with the cultural context in mind: without this law, the woman would simply be left unmarried and unmarriageable. The remedy for this tort is that the man must give her social status and support her financially for the rest of her life. Sure, she gets a rough deal, but it's better than she would have got otherwise.
Re:Peace (Score:5, Funny)
Lo! they cannot escape.
I misread that as "Lol". 4114h00 4kH bR !!!
No, you're right. It does say "Lol". Full excerpt:
"and let not n00bs who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip ALLAH'S PURPOSE!!!!1 lol they cannot escape. make ready for them all u can of armed force and of...OMG PONIES!!! rofl. so um..that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and u can haz victory."
Re:I don't get it (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The original complaint (Score:4, Insightful)
So what? Having a game censored because of pandering to some primitive superstition is highly offensive to me.
Sephiroth! (Score:5, Insightful)
Noooooo! Don't take my Final Fantasy CDs away! Not my Evangelion! Not Ghost in the Shell!