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Quake First Person Shooters (Games)

Carmack on the retail Quake3 for linux 430

Posted by Hemos from the coming-atcha dept.
Fritti writes "Carmack's new .plan talks about the retail version of Quake3Arena (besides announcing a Mac version of the demo); he asks Linux/Mac users to make a statement toward the distributors and resellers, and to wait for the appropriate boxed version before buying. "If everyone bought a windows version and the other boxes sold like crap in comparison, that would be plenty of evidence for most executives to can any cross platform development.". "
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Carmack on the retail Quake3 for linux More

Carmack on the retail Quake3 for linux

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  • What's the current situation? Does the quake package contain all the binaries, but the sales just get reported as being for "Windows"?

    That's what happened a few years back with other Mac software... We'd have to buy the cross-platform version only to find our purchases were reported as being Windows sales and the publishers would pull back Mac support because of cited "lack of interest"..
  • And if your local retailer doesn't carry the Q3A for LINUX, spend $5 extra and order it online.

  • oops (Score:1)

    by ywwg ( 20925 )
    I already preordered the tin-box windows version. I can't use my TNT very well under linux anyway. Sorry John!
  • a lot of people would like to buy a cd with both binaries (win9x and linux-x86).

    If that is possible, it would be very good - but we would n't know how many of them actually used the linux version.
  • Hmm
    Same thing happend with Myth, IIRC.
    The CD inside was a hybrid Mac/PC, but they created two different boxes in order to track the sales.
    This is important for sure!
    The stupid thing, on the distributer end of course, is that the default is Windez.
    Argh. I'm just glad that there are multi-platform games like Quake3 and Unreal Tournament coming out. Maybe Linux and Mac users will benefit greatly in the future if this all goes well!

    Pope
  • In addition, the distributor/seller would look at this as one sale that could have potentially been two sales.
  • I would buy a version of such a game if the hardware needed to run the game wasn't something that was comparable to an IBM mainframe or something. Why do games have to bloated and take up more and more resources? If I ever write games (and eventually I will write something because I think that most games do not suit me) I will make sure that almost everyone can run them.
  • Is this "tournament" thing a network only game? Why do people buy games that are network dependent when a network is not only expensive and requires more and more money but also is not 100% reliable. I a buy a computer I own that computer. If I want to get a network connection I always have to pay in some way for that connection especially the good ones. This type of thinking is dangerous and gets into the realm of things like DIVX and others.
  • I will make sure that almost everyone can run them.

    DeerHunter beat you to it. Gamers want the best in graphics, sounds, and Wow!, that usually requires a cutting edge machine. Computer gaming is NOT a cheap hobby.
  • I would like to buy a linux version but linux games are really hard to get (at least in the netherlands) so I guest I'll have to wait to after x-mas.
    I think the sales of Q3 are not going to represent the demand for linux games correctly, people don't want to travel 100 miles to get the linux version of a game, they just stick to the windows version and download the linux executable when it's available.
    we'll all have to go to our local computer shop or wherever they sell games and ask for linux games. if there is a large enough demand they'll will sell them. but for now many stores are afraid that if they put linux games in the shelves, they won't sell them.
    ---
  • Creative as people like Carmack and other game developers are, it's still about The Biz. I know a mid-level exec from a major game co, and his work-talk isn't about games, techniques, developers, or even markets. What I hear from him is bottom line, expense accounts, perqs, distribution numbers -there's this thick layer of, well, Schmaltz, on top of the business of game copying and distribution.

    I've never gotten a sense of comprehension of what players want, and how they're gonna get it to them. Course, he's in Manhattan, and people there tend to be work-and-income focused more than most other places I'm familiar with.
  • Read Carmack's .plan: If they fitted all the binaries in one CD there would not be a way to see which platform generated the sale, and platform statistics would be impossible.

    So, if you want to run Quake3 under linux buy the linux boxed version. Simple.

  • Don't they have server logs? Can't they tell thru which client someone is connecting? Can't they just aggregate this data and generate figures through this? Are they dumb?
  • Does anyone know if ID is supporting non-Intel Linuxeseseses (oops, sorry there)? I'm running LinuxPPC, and probably won't have $$$ to get a decent Intel machine (other things in line first) until mid-to-late 2000. [I'm also trying to slowly phase out non-open source os's.]

    I'm sure Alpha-Linux ans Sparc-Linux fans would really go for Quake also!

    Just asking, thanks
    RobK
  • Amen to that. Until XFree86 4 comes out with DRI, us poor TNT/2 and possibly even GeForce owners are just shit outta luck. No quake3 for us under Linux. Maybe next year things will be different.
  • Choices. You have them. If you want to play the latest games then you'll have to keep your machine up to date. That is how it has always been. Scads of people seem to do this. I don't really see the necessity or point in such behavior. I enjoy playing games with more depth than these. Typically those types of game run on nearly every computer. (see Stars!)

    There are plenty of great games being produced for the lowest common denominator. You just don't hear about them because they don't have the same marketing/media hype that these high-tech games have.

    I still don't see why you are complaining so much though. My computer seems to run Quake3test just fine with all the options turned on, and it is over a year and a half old now which is quite old for gaming standards. I may or may not purchase the game, I can't justify spending 60 bucks on something I'll use for a month. The only reason I would purchase it is to support id and Carmack. I bought the old Linux version of Quake for exactly that reason. I applaud their foresight.
  • I don't advocate this, but....

    Something tells me that some "warez" groups are going to release the Windows binaries anyway. If you really want to play across the two, your chances of getting a Windows binary is better than your chances of getting a Linux binary. So if you do own the CD, getting Windows binaries for use with the Linux version seems better than finding Linux binaries to work with the Windows version.

    Hey, you do own a license for the game.....
  • Good question for anyone what will happen when computer technology can no longer increase processor speed? Will computers just cost more like in the late 70's? I bet that will change the tune of software manufacturers! The average American does not have anextra $50,000 to spend on "entertainment".
  • It doesn't sound like it's a hybrid:
    "We should be handing off the masters for all three platforms within a day or two of each other, but they aren't going to show up in stores at the same time. Publishers, distributers,and stores are willing to go out of their way to expedite the arrival of the pc version, but they just won't go to the same amount of trouble for mac and linux boxes."

    My favorite tactic with hybrids, though, is how retailers will actually raise the price for the exact same product just because they are putting it in the Mac section of the store. You can see that a lot with Myth 2.

  • Software Piracy is Justified in this case (Score:3)

    by infoflux ( 103311 ) on Thursday November 18, 1999 @07:11AM (#1521491) Homepage
    I think that in this case, piracy might be justified. If you really can't wait for the Linux version, pirate the windows version off of a friend until the Linux version is available. Everybody's still getting the money so no big deal right, and by waiting for the Linux version, we're all making a statement in support of Linux software. Finally, I think it would be neat to put Linux/Windows versions on the same CD and just use different boxes to track shipping. I'm sure if they're clever they could even put it in the same box and give it two different codes. Then the retailer will use the Linux code if it is sold as a Linux box, and the Windows code if it is sold as a windows box. That way the retailers can "alter" their stock to meet supply and demand but still get accurate records.
  • The best way for them to tell what people are using is to release them all at the same time. Releasing the Windows version, then a month or two down the line releasing the Mac and Linux version, won't give an accurate result.

    If they are all released at the same time it will show which platform people prefer playing it on, as they will buy that version first.

    I always thought they were going to release them all at once, bummer.

  • Support Linux Gaming (Score:3)

    by Wah ( 30840 ) on Thursday November 18, 1999 @07:12AM (#1521493) Homepage Journal
    --PLEASE!!--

    I know there are a lot of people that play in both windows and linux, and this may be a bit of an inconvenience in the short term, but this is an ideal time to cast a vote as a consumer.

    I'd really love to stop using Windows totally, but as a serious gamer that's just not a possibility at this point. So go put your money where your mouth is and help convince game companies that they should make Linux versions of All games. A pipe dream yes I know, but id was the first game company to realize the power of demo's (err, shareware) and hopefully they can lead the charge again.

    Support Linux, buy Quake3 in the box with the Penguin on it(?).
  • Deer Hunter made an absolute fortune, didn't it?

    ... and the most popular online games today are things like Chess/Draughts/Backgammon/Bridge games on the Zone.

    My favourite game ever is a toss-up between Saturn Bomberman and Super Puzzle Fighter -- neither of them games which require big iron to run.

    That said, if you *must* want to play pretty first-person shooters like Quake 3, then correct: you'll need a monster of a PC (or a Dreamcast, and a few months' wait)
    --

  • Grab the modified SVGA server from NVIDIA [nvidia.com] and run the little installation script.

    Quake 2 looks good (in a window) and q3test looks great (full screen) with my TNT2 and XFree86 3.3.5. You'll probably also want to update your Mesa [mesa3d.org] library. (I think I had to make a symbolic link to a slightly-modified libMesa, too.)

    --
    QDMerge [rmci.net] 0.4!

  • It's certainly doable. I know because I can't stop playing. It's just a lot slower than a Voodoo3 or G200/G400.
    --

  • How many times does Wolfenstein need to be rewritten with less plot, more gore, and a pinch of new features?

    I recall reading an old PC Gamer a couple months ago, where they unwrapped the upcoming Quake. Its system demands were pretty high (DX2/66 minimum), but they insisted this was necessary, because they didn't want to 'do a Doom 3'. Here they are, doing *Quake* 3 that does little more than add support for the 3D hardware buzzword of the week.

    I'd like to see some genuinely new features in Quake. Number 1, get rid of that awful engine that gives people headaches and nausea. Number 2, evolve beyond the first person shoot 'em up genre and do something groudbreaking like Wolfenstein again.

    My $40.02 (reflects approximate savings from NOT buying Q3A)

  • Gamers want the best in graphics, sounds, ...

    Yep, just like that Zork game had.

    Daniel
  • Print the word "LINUX", or "Mac", or "Atari" (those were the days) as big as the word "QUAKE" on the boxes and incrust the word with flashing LED's so that people who don't read Slashdot don't walk exasperatingly and ignorantly past the product in shops that make no effort to put it on display. The great thing about the Amiga-Atari rivalry days was that with both factions being roughly equal, there was half a shop for each, so there was little chances of missing out. Linux games are more often bundled in with Linux distributions.

    That said, at least they're easier to find than DVD ROM's in the shops.


  • ATI doesn't seem to want to release LinuxPPC drivers....
  • In cases like those, it is important for the buyer to fill in the registration form and specifiy the platform they bought it for.

    I also believe that shops should ask the customer which platform they are going to be playing the game on.

    MT

  • what does "for linux" mean (Score:3)

    by heh2k ( 84254 ) on Thursday November 18, 1999 @07:16AM (#1521503) Homepage
    for linux/x86 only, or will it be available for all other archs (ppc, alpha, sparc, arm, m68k?)?

    of course, this a rhetorical question. i'm sure he means only x86. i wish people would be more specific when they say "for linux". "for linux" only makes sense if you're releasing the source (in which case you can compile it on any arch, barring any endian or asm depenencies).
  • In the united states they were selling them at Comp USA in the linux section. In fact the only linux games they sold were from id. Quake II I think.
  • AFAIK a .plan update from Brian Hook (I believe)
    detailed the architecture for their optimization
    system.
    They have all their 'optimizables' in
    one file which is compiled as a dll.
    The fallback is naturally a C implmententation of each function. Then for special processors they do optimized versions of each function in a
    file/dll for that processor.
    At runtime they detect your processor and load
    the best dll for the job.
  • Have you seen the game running in its full high res 32bit color glory? It is absoulutely incredible, best looking computer game I've ever seen(agruably better than Soul Caliber on Dreamcast but that is another discussion for another day). Sure you need a pimped out machine to play it like that, but it will also play on lesser machines. I used to play the demo on my P200 with a voodoo1. Sure it didn't look as pretty as with a newer machine, but I could play it and get a decent framerate. That is the beauty of the Quake games - their flexibility when it comes to graphics/system options. It rewards the gamer that just spent $3000 on their Athlon 700 GeForce box, but someone else with a mildly upgraded three year old machine (like me) can still play the game. At least Quake engine games, Unreal engine games are another story.

    Pete
  • Just thought of something I didn't include in my first post. Why not just put the Windows and Linux versions on the same CD and in the same Box and simply have a business reply card that says "Which operating system did you purcahse this software for, check one ..." I can't speak for the rest of the community, but I would definitely take the 3 seconds and 33 cents required to show my support of the Linux version in this manner. This would really be the best way to do it, I think since it is easier on every party involved.
  • After Xmas (according to Carmack), you'll be able to download the binaries for each version. So I wouldn't worry about that too much.

    Buy the Linux version, and yoink the Windows binaries from someone else if you really need to in the meantime. That should be possible, and hopefully that doesn't violate any laws.
  • While I agree, sofas and big screens are great, Quake does benefit from a mouse (for which you need a table/desk in front of you) and outrageous resolutions (so you can shoot your enemy when he's only a 500th of a screen high). If *you're* not running at 1280x1024, your enemy will be!

    It was widely believed that Quake II could not be done on a Playstation. That they managed it, and did it so well (I hear) is a minor miracle, although I gather they had to change the level designs to suit the engine's capabilities.

    You won't see Quake III on Playstation. Dreamcast is a possibility (Half Life is confirmed for DC), Playstation 2, who knows.
    --

  • Which is easier? (Score:3)

    by Wah ( 30840 ) on Thursday November 18, 1999 @07:20AM (#1521512) Homepage Journal
    counting how many copies of what version sell

    .or.

    ananlyzing thousands of server logs from around the world, collected from random individuals running random servers, which might be up or down depending on the day or even the time of day. Add in the other uncontrolled variable (dynamic IP's, shared copies, etc) and it becomes obvious that there is a much simpler way to figure out how many people on what platform use the software (see paragraph 1).
  • What's the real difference between Wolf3D, Doom and Quake? Nothing.

    The company is (or was) very creative, and obviously has a lot of talented people. Why not put all that to work and make something new? I voted for Linux games with my dollars by buying Civ CTP for Linux (in Electronic Boutique in the mall, no less). I am NOT going to vote for re-hashed FPS's with my dollars.
    ---
  • Don't they have server logs?
    This would only tell them who plays online, not who buys units, and its shifting units that the publishers are interested in, because thats what makes the money.
  • Well I can't see buying something I really can't use; even if it's the only thing that is supporting Carmack. Ok I guess I think it might be interesting to play this what is in the people's experience the best linux optimized hardware configuration (the whole ball of wax) that is the cheapest to run this. Will this be around for a great deal of time? Could I say in 5 years when I can get a better machine say order a copy from ID? Could I now say get a copy of Wolfenstein? That game was really sweet.
  • Id could avoid this with a license clause, or they could do as Metallica did with "The $5.98 EP" (also known as "The $9.98 CD"). State, both in the fine print and in big bold font on the box, "All versions of Q3 cost $X" and add something akin to the Citadel [mt-kisco.ny.us]: "If you paid more, someone is ripping you off." Fugazi [addict.com], similarly, never charge more than five bucks for tickets to their shows and enforce similar restrictions on the prices of their albums, T-shirts and the like.
  • How many copies did Zork sell last year?
  • Quake3Arena and Unreal Tournament are network games. You play against other people over a modem or other Internet/LAN connection.
    Networking is extremely cheap. An Ethernet card can run you about $30 US. An 8-port (cheap) 10Base-T hub can run you about $40. Cat-5 wiring is cheap. If DSL or cable modems are available in your area, those are fairly inexpensive extremely fast Internet connections (my ADSL 768k Down/384K up costs me $39/mo in Cincinnati). If all else fails, dial up.
    If you mean by the association with DIVX that the maker of the game charges you for playing, that (as far as I know) hasn't happened and hasn't been proposed. If you purchase the game you can run a server for it and anyone else who purchased the game can connect to it to play. If you download the "free" version, you are simply restricted to the demonstration levels.

  • Carmack could just release the linux version first and please us. Yes, it's unfair, but it really sends a jolt through the Windows user base. Plus, it has seemed as though he truly felt Linux was the best of the three OSes he used. Yes, I do remember his statements to the fact that he uses an NT network, but for ease of development, I must say that linux provides the best platform. So, if the world saw a Linux version say a week before a Windows version, then Carmack would be sending the shockwave himself, and we would all be happy. Now if I could only find out why my mouse doesn't work properly in LinQuake, that would be sweet. (Anyone know of workarounds that haven't been published on www.linuxquake.com or the HOWTO? My Intellimouse doesn't want to work right.)
  • Just like the beautiful works of art in the middle ages in France in the era of Louis XIV-XVI the average person couldn't see or appreciate them. But why 32bit? Isn't the total level of the human eye's color threshold that is perceivable at 24bpp? what good is an extra 8bpp? Couldn't that be just used to speed up the whole thing?

  • .. in the same package/box, AFAIK.

    2 CDs. One with the Win32/Linux binaries and another with S3TC textures on it.

    And it should be out at the end of this week.
  • I just think this is awesome that John Carmack is risking making more money, faster to promote platform choice. I can not think of any other company that has made an appeal this.. Hats off idSoftware!
  • Q3 Tournament is NOT network only. Neither is Unreal Tournament for that matter. Both have single player modes that pit you against bots that simulate deathmatch. UT's bots can even play Capture The Flag and Domination and other game types. I dunno if Q3 has these alternate game types built in or not. No network required.

    But by the sounds of it you haven't given network gaming a real try and you have no idea what you're missing out on...

  • Hastings (music, books, movies, software store) sells Linux games as well. Don't know how widespread their stores are though. They had Civ:CTP and Myth2 for Linux.

  • Wouldn't on-line distribution be more profitable? (Score:3)

    by jetson123 ( 13128 ) on Thursday November 18, 1999 @07:35AM (#1521540)
    The interest of retailers may be to see boxed versions, but I would think that the interest of the software company's executives would be to make as much money for their company as possible.

    Since many people running Linux are well connected, why not make the software availabe for on-line purchase?

    Of course, boxed versions and retail space have some positive effect on public perception and are desirable from that point of view for making people aware that Linux is good at gaming. But that seems to me like a separate issue from whether the gaming company itself makes money off the product.

  • As a linux q2-server operator and a Win32-gamer, I really feel left out in the cold over this decision not to release downloadable binaries. My server machine runs Linux, while my home PC is Win32-based. What am I supposed to do? I can't afford to buy both the Win32 version and the Linux version (and no, piracy isn't an option). Surely, I'm not the only one who's getting shafted in this deal.

    Why can't id software just track how many people download the respective alternate OS binaries if they really need to log that data? Heck, I'd even fill out a goofy info form just to get the download, a la Real Player.
  • Is there any word about the performance of the game?

    I mean, is the Intel Linux version better than the Windows version running on the same machine or not?

    Is the Linux PPC version (if it exists, I have been ignorant about this so far) better than the MacOS version running on the same machine or not?

    ------------------

  • Question about sales vs downloads (Score:4)

    by Capt Dan ( 70955 ) on Thursday November 18, 1999 @07:38AM (#1521549) Homepage
    So I understand the whole "wait for the linux version" deal.

    Apparently there's some way to buy the windows version and get a freebie ticket for the linux version when it is released. So I assume that when this happened in the past (has it?), all the linux people bought the windows version and then "upgraded" when the linux version became available.

    Here's my question. If gaming companies are looking for evidence of Linux interest, why are they just looking at sales? Do not the download volumes of linux binaries also matter?

    Why can't they say "well, uh there were 153,893 windows versions bought, and then 53,000 people turned in their coupons for the linux version... So we sold 100,893 windows versions."

    Or am I missing something?


    "You want to kiss the sky? Better learn how to kneel." - U2
    "It was like trying to herd cats..." - Robert A. Heinlein

  • Re:Not being a quake player (Score:3)

    by Sethb ( 9355 ) <bokelman@outlook.com> on Thursday November 18, 1999 @07:41AM (#1521554)
    What's happening is that id is going to allow users to download the binaries necessary to play on a platform other than the one that they purchased. For instance, if I buy the Win32 version, I'll be able to download the binaries to let me play the game in Linux or on a Mac too. Carmack went on to say that they'd be holding off on releasing these binaries until after the Mac and Linux boxed versions had been available in stores, to keep people from buying Windows versions just to run on Linux, so that the number of sales of Windows copies isn't quite so large.
    ---

  • Buying Quake in Germany (Score:4)

    by harmonica ( 29841 ) on Thursday November 18, 1999 @07:44AM (#1521563)
    You can still consider yourself lucky - it's easier to buy games in the Netherlands than in Germany. I had no problems finding a copy of Q2 in the NL, but German shops cannot advertise for violent games (they're for adults only, treated like pornography). Some shops have a copy if you explicitly ask for them, but it's a long search to find one. What a strange situation... I don't think it'll be different with Q3.

    Now that there were some US-like killings in Germany (a student kills his history teacher with a knife, another one shoots several persons with his father's weapons) the media are already catching up and do the same bad coverage (from the journalistic point of view) as in the US, so I guess the situation will not become better. Sigh...

    Don't get me wrong, those killings are tragic. But I think they're unrelated to the fact that violent video games were played by these individuals. In the typical German way (vorauseilender Gehorsam) all future games by companies like id soft get the 'adult' label.
  • >The rewrote q3 to take advantage of all the features of 3d cards.

    Better graphics...

    >The improve the network code to point where even people with >150 ping can play.

    This doesn't help those who don't play online. (Too many llamas)
    But better networking is still an improvement ...

    >They added professionally designed bots.

    I believe the guy they hired already did a bot for Quake2 (either Gladiator or Reaper). After playing the demotest I don't think its that much of an improvement over a quake2 bot.

    >They have 30 professionally designed levels designed SOLELY for internet gaming.

    There are tons of levels for online gaming out there, freely downloadable. Lots of them are professionally done also. Nothing new here.

    > Anyone who's played q3 knows that it is a different, much more enjoyable experience than playing quake or q2 online. This is innovation.

    How? I played both and its a bit different but it is not "innovation". Just better graphics and better networking code.

    The weapons are the same. The jumppads are already done in HalfLife. The powerup are similar to quake 2. Capture the Flag is not new. Where is the innovation?

  • Re:Well I have a little sour grapes. (Score:3)

    by cancrman ( 24472 ) on Thursday November 18, 1999 @07:48AM (#1521575) Homepage
    I don't know if I'd go that far. Acutally I think that reasonable QIII performance is within the reach of the average user. One can get a decent Athlon box with a good 3d accelerator for less than $1500 (I should know, just got one last week).

    As for the depth of human color perception I have to plead ignorance. But why would everyone be making such a big deal about 32bit color if no one could see the difference? Would the difference between 16bit (normal/decent video card output) vs. 24bit (What you claim as human's color threshold) really be all that great? Hey I don't even enable 32bit color when I play QIII since I'm one of those "go fast and look ugly" type of players. When I'm playing hardcore I'd rather have the framerate than the eye candy. But when it comes time to show what the new machine can do the eye candy can really impress.

    Pete
  • Why do you say bloated? To me a bloated application is an application that has every feature under the sun, most of them useless. A case of trying to have super-app that does everything. I don't consider games to be bloated. They are getting bigger because developers are adding more depth to them and making the worlds that they exist in more detailed/realistic. How is that bloat?
  • I'm sure Alpha-Linux ans Sparc-Linux fans would really go for Quake also!

    Don't be so sure. Whilst I love my Sparc Linux box to bits (those who have only ever encountered x86 hardware really don't know what they're missing), it's never going to be able to play Q3A. Sure, Sun make boxes that are capable of doing so, but they cost 8-10 times as much as an equivalent (at least in terms of playing Quake) x86 box. The sort of people that are going to spend that much money on a Sparc aren't generally going to be playing quake.

    That said, it is an important point. Non-x86 platforms are being left behind in terms of commercial Linux software. While it may not be able to play Quake, my Sparc is perfectly capable of running StarOffice, Insure++, RealPlayer, etc -- but they're only available for Linux/x86. Maybe I should take another look at Solaris binary emulation :-) I can still use all the free software on my Sparc (if nothing else, I can compile it myself), and I can also remotely display stuff to the Sparc from my Linux/x86 box, but that's kind of missing the point...


  • Interestingly, that these killings are happening even where games are strictly censored and contolled shows the futility of the tactic.

    If people would only dare look at the real problem for once...

    -
    We cannot reason ourselves out of our basic irrationality. All we can do is learn the art of being irrational in a reasonable way.
  • But why 32bit? Isn't the total level of the human eye's color threshold that is perceivable at 24bpp? what good is an extra 8bpp? Couldn't that be just used to speed up the whole thing?

    Indeed, 24bpp is about the limit of the eye's perception for color variations. The 32bpp is to accomidate computers, not people. Modern consumer processors are used to slinging numbers around in 32 bit chunks. At 32bpp, the processor (whether the CPU or the videocard's) can easily address one pixel at a time. In 24bpp, more work must be done to grab to 32bit space enclosing the pixel and then extract the pixel. 24bpp is generally used to try to squeeze a more pixels out of a specific amount of VRAM. In today's market, the monitor is often more of a limiting factor on resolution than the video card's memory is, so most programs just go for the faster 32bpp.


    --Phil (Also, some programs (like Netscape) don't handle 24bpp in X very well.)
  • Quake2's license info /does/ allow people to set up multiplayer servers and play the client with only 1 license. Here's the relevant excerpt from \quake2\docs\licinfo.txt:

    CAN DO:
    -- Play & enjoy the single player game;
    -- Setup a full version based server on a not-for-profit basis


    I agree that it's nice to use this data to show other companies about the value of Linux gamers, but I don't want to be a martyr for the cause (I just don't want to wait a month or longer to download Linux binaries, especially when I feel that I am doing the q2/q3 community a service by running a server.)

  • No hybrid CD or downloadable version? Here's why. (Score:5)

    by GeorgeMcBay ( 106610 ) on Thursday November 18, 1999 @08:06AM (#1521608)
    This is in response to many people who ask why not a hybrid cd, or quick downloads... Read the plan..carefully. Carmack would like to do a hybrid CD version. He chose not to. This is clearly not because he wants to screw the Linux/Mac crowd. A big part of this whole set-up id is using is to convince the DISTRIBUTORS and RETAILERS (CompUSA, etc) that Linux/Mac versions will sell. Id is going to support these platforms in the future no matter what. If they offered Linux/Mac versions on the same CD or as downloadable binaries, all the distributors/retailers would see is "Ok, 900,000 sales of the game that contain the Windows version". They (the distributors/retailers) don't care how many people download the Linux/Mac executable, no matter how many logs id presents them with, because it has nothing to do with them. They deal only in the physical goods of the box. While you may be slightly inconvienced due to the Windows version coming out before the Linux version, in the long term this release, if Linux/Mac users have the patience to wait for the right version, will be the first step towards changing the attitudes of these distributors/retailers. Dont blame id, they are going to release the game near simultanously for all markets, they just realize that currently the distributors will give preference to the Windows version. Why is half of Slashdot so negative? Lashing out at id is exactly the wrong response. This has the potential to be a GREAT thing. Uh that's all.
  • What's the real difference between Wolf3D, Doom and Quake? Nothing.

    Wrong. There's actually quite a big difference: gameplay. Wolf3D was a nice, groundbreaking game with decent playability. Then came Doom, with more gameplay than virtually any other game before or since. The only possible exceptions that I can think of are Space Invaders (yes, really), Angband, Tetris and Elite. Quake had an awesome 3D engine (for the time), but the gameplay sucked bigtime.

    Think about the acid test. How often do you play each of the three today? I, and most people I know, still go back for the odd game of Doom. Good though it was at the time, I don't do the same for Wolf3D, and I definitely don't for Quake.

  • There was no Linux retail box available anywhere near the release date of Quake / Quake 2. So there wasn't any choice but to buy the Windows version and download the Linux binary.

    It's hard to track downloads by anon ftp. There are many mirror sites. And even if they could all be tracked, it would be easy for us to inflate the numbers by downloading multiple times with a shell script and wget, ncftpget, etc. The only real way to track downloads is to allow downloading from only a few secure sites with custom logging (per IP address, code included with the game, etc.), which is inconvenient (for us) and expensive (for the company paying for all that bandwidth, rather than spreading the load to free mirrors).

    When Q3A is released, I'll check the local stores for the Linux version. If they have it, I'll buy. If they don't, I'll whine, then mail-order it. (Whine: I hate paying $6 shipping on a $35 purchase. More companies should offer Priority Mail.)

    Game companies do pay attention to those registration / comment cards. If you care more about Linux ports of games than about junk mail, fill out the card in every game that you buy, and mention Linux.

  • Re:Question about sales vs downloads (Score:5)

    by J. Tang ( 16252 ) on Thursday November 18, 1999 @08:15AM (#1521625)
    Why can't they say "well, uh there were 153,893 windows versions bought, and then 53,000 people turned in their coupons for the linux version... So we sold 100,893 windows versions."

    Or am I missing something?

    I think so. I believe the point that Carmack is trying to make is to send a message to retailers about the Linux market.

    Most software houses don't sell their works straight to the public. Instead, they publish them and then sell to the retailers (e.g., CompUSA). If the retailers don't demand Linux-based games, then the publishers don't sell any. Thus, they won't bother writing any Linux games.

    Take a look at two suggestions I've seen:

    Sell just a PC version, but let the user download the binary for his OS.
    This logic is severely flawed. Ok, so id knows how many Linux/Mac clients exist. Whee. They then publish their server logs. Whee. Other software companies check out id's page and sees some statistics. How do they know that id did not make up those numbers? In other words, other companies can not verify, for themselves, the Linux market.

    Distribute a hybrid CD. For the registration card, allow the user to choose his OS.
    This is flawed like above. Again, id could publish the values; yet the numbers can not be emperically verified.

    Suppose that id continues as plans. Linux users buy Linux versions of Q3; Mac and PC users do likewise. Now, each retailer can verify for themselves the demand for the different OSs. Knowing those values, they can then demand to the software houses what operating systems they (the publishers) should support.

    If the demand for Linux is non-existant, then the retailers won't buy any Linux games from the publishers. Even if the publishers want to support Linux, they might choose to not do so if nobody is going to buy Linux.

    But if Q3, Linux version sells extremely well, the retailers are sure to notice. They then pass on this demand to the publishers.

  • Id takes their shit seriously: My ramble (Score:5)

    by schweda ( 58011 ) on Thursday November 18, 1999 @08:18AM (#1521632)
    There seems to be a lot of talk here about the fact that Q3A may (or may not)be a rehashed version of Wolfenstein, Doom, etc. etc

    What I don't see mentioned is one of the main reasons why I'll gladly shell my bucks over to Id: they put out quality product, period.

    95% of gaming companies don't do this -- they either *can't* do it because they don't have the coding talen or they *won't* do it because the corporate suits insist that they release their product prematurely.

    I mean, I'm not an advocate of gaming magazines -- they seem to be glorified hype-machines with dippy writers -- but they are a good thermometer of the gaming culture. Maybe not the "hardcore" culture -- but I think they give a pretty good idea of what Joe Consumer buys when he/she steps into a Best Buy and wants the latest "game".

    Now, take a look at the games they "review" at any given time: 85% of the reviews in any given are way, way below the "satisfactory" level. Companies out there are just shovelling the stuff out -- to make money, yes -- but also to cash in on the latest hot license. I mean, stop and think: does anyone think for a minute that there's a *high* probability that the Matrix license will lead to a quality game? It'll probably lead to a so-so game, a mediocore review, and then will be forgotten in two months time.

    Id, on other hand, consistently scores pretty well with these gaming magazines and writers. (And, in a tangent rant, you always get the jackoff writers writing dumb editorials: "Hmm. I don't really know what to write in my editorial, so I'll write an editorial about not knowing what to write about in an editorial." Or: "Well, folks, it's been a good XX years, but I've got to move on. I've seen X, and I've seen Y, and well, I can't think of anything else to say, so I'll just write this column about writing a column about saying goodbye to writing columns.")

    And, sure, these writers usually say much of what is being said here: that Quake X is a rehash, another Doom, a prettier Wolfenstein. Still, they usually admit (rightly, I think) that, well, Id pretty much sets the standard for graphics and gameplay that many, many other companies follow.

    Not to mention they oftentimes set the standard for hardware purchasing, too. I mean, I go by the Id rule: I upgrade whenever a new Quake is out because, well, that's the time to upgrade. I know that if I want pretty eye-candy in Quake, I'll probably get a new graphics card and a new CPU (and maybe a new mobo).

    Although Id has problems. The initial releases of Quake 2, for example, were a mess. But they're pretty good about keeping in touch with the community and fixing the problems. I can't say the same for other developers. (Some developers, yes: the Unreal folks, the Half-Life, folks, etc.)

    But I just get the sense that Carmack and Co. -- while they of course have to deal with the suits and with their profit margins -- are more likely to put out a quality piece of work than not.

    It's not a crap shoot with Id. You know you'll get some a topnothc product. There's no doubt about that. You may not like the gameplay -- or you may find it derivitive, whatever -- but gameplay theory issues aside, the product itself is always kickass.

    I mean, hell, Delta Force 2 is a lot like Delta Force. SpecOPS II is a *lot* like SpecOPS I. And with those two products, I don't see the sort of technological leaps you see in Id's products.

    They always put out some wildass wicked shit.


  • Games have far more heavier requirements than almost any other type of application for computers (exception: nuclear bomb simulations, weather forecasting, etc). I would go as far as saying that it's the game market that is running the personal computer industry right now.

    For instance, your typical FPS (first person shooters) require insane amounts of FPU because of the amount of calculations that are required in order to give you things like Quake 3. 3D accelerators do help, but the CPU still has to do some of the calculations for whatever the 3D accelerators can't do. And running games at 32 bit at high resolutions have very high demands on the system.

    The artificial intelligence required for some games are incredible. You are literally putting together an embedded system to run overtop an operating system when you develop a game. The amount of scheduling involved to make sure all the events in a game are synchronized are enormous. And you have to tie your events with the operating systems events as well (i.e interrupt handling and such). For these reasons, this is why you need such powerful machines to run games. Even the consoles have evolved in such a way that they need massive hardware requirements (look at the next generation consoles).

  • A couple points..software houses vs. distributers (Score:4)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18, 1999 @08:33AM (#1521650)
    I agree with you to a point...I may not be a big fan of Quake, but I like ID's attitude. Carmack is the 'last man standing' with respect to supporting multiple platforms, and especially with respect to OpenGL...we need to support him for that, or else we'll never see games on Linux (Just take a look at Tim Sweeney's comments about Direct3d over on unreal.epicgames.com...what a Microsoft toady.)

    However, ID isn't the only quality company out there...I'd rank Looking Glass right at the top right now, especially after seeing/playing System Shock 2 and Thief, and having dealt with the company personally.

    There is one thing you need to differentiate between though...on one side you've got the game houses like ID and Looking Glass. On the other side, you've got the distributers...monsters like Electronic Arts and Eidos. ID may be willing to support Linux, but I guarantee you that EA/Activision/Eidos do NOT. I wish there was a way to get around the 'middleman' and go directly to the game houses, but unfortunately we usually can't (kind of like the music industry, ain't it?).

    Personally, I despise the distributers...especially Eidos. Eidos has been the ruin of more than one game out there. Soul Reaver was forcibly released ahead of schedule by Eidos because they didn't want to wait for it to be finished. Worse, Eidos made Crystal Dynamics CRIPPLE the game just so Eidos could make a damn sequel (this was proven, all of the sounds from the 'original' game are still on the CD, including some major characters that didn't make the final Eidos cut). Eidos did the same thing to Revenant as well (bug ridden, unfinished). It'll be interesting to see if Electronic Arts has forced the compromise of the upcoming Ultima IX, too.
  • civCTP runs on Linux which means I can play it.

    As for your weak defense of Quake vs Doom vs Wolf3D: give me a break. It's like patiently explaining that frozen yogurt is created with bacterial cultures and sold in TCBY stores. So what? It's still just like ice cream! I want to know what is groundbreaking about it. Fat free? Maybe.

    In the context of the game what is different between Quake and Wolf3D? Forget technical diffs (different rendering engines, indeed) and minor add-ons (ooooohhhh, multiple level dungeons--big whoop).
    ---
  • John is being incredibly humble here. The Linux sales of Q3 will be on the radar of every publisher and game developer out there.

    It's unfortunate that Q3 is being sold as seperate SKU's because it really does make sense to just release one and then tally the results of who is running the Windows, MacOS, and Linux executables. Besides making technical sense, a single SKU lessens the retailer's return rates which lowers the losses due to cost of goods and thus lets the publisher sell a higher-quality manual and box.

    But most people don't register their games, and automatic registration, even if all you're registering is the information, "a unique ip ran the linux binary" is associated with Orwellian tactics.

    Another reason publishers shy away from allowing multiple versions in a SKU is because each version creates a seperate flavor of support issues, and support costs add up fast. Again, this is a situation that would be vastly improved by automatically gathering and submitting data on the machine that is having trouble.

    If game companies released the source code to the automatic registration component of their games and made that component a seperate executable or perhaps a dynamically loaded library, would users feel less betrayed and spied-upon?

  • Nice (Score:4)

    by DonkPunch ( 30957 ) on Thursday November 18, 1999 @08:42AM (#1521663) Homepage Journal
    So the post advocating a violation of id's license terms and copyright get moderated up, but a post criticizing this idea get moderated down.

    Look, I know there is no pretense of fairness or lack of bias on slashdot. Anything MS-related will get slammed -- fine. Anyone claiming a software patent is a jerk -- ok.

    But upscoring posts which openly advocate copyright violations is not acceptable. If it's ok to ignore id's license, is it ok for someone else to ignore the GPL and release modified binary-only distributions of the Linux kernel?

    Go ahead and "troll" me. My karma can take it. At least I'm not posting anonymously.
  • iD should offer the Windows binary for download for us that want to purchase the Linux version, and/or play Quake 3 arena on multiple systems, or multi-boot. That way we could vote for open source and still play the game under the evil scourge of operating systems on other machines in the house, or if speed is more important sometimes, etc.

  • Here's my question. If gaming companies are looking for evidence of Linux interest, why are they just looking at sales? Do not
    the download volumes of linux binaries also matter?

    Why can't they say "well, uh there were 153,893 windows versions bought, and then 53,000 people turned in their coupons for
    the linux version... So we sold 100,893 windows versions."


    The information that will enable game developers to make the business decision to port to Linux (or develop in Linux and port to Windows for that matter) is the number of additional sales that having a Linux port generates.

    A simple example, a game is developed for both Windows and Linux. Buying either version allows you to download the other version for free.

    100000 copies are sold. 90000 of those copies are for Windows, 10000 are for Linux. 20000 of the people who purchased the Windows version downloaded the free Linux version.

    The developer will look at this and say that 100000 copies were sold while only 10000 copies were sold for Linux. This is actually accurate, the number of people who downloaded the Linux version doesn't matter one bit. Actually, to be more accurate the Linux version downloads don't give any information one way or the other on how much additional market share they earned due to the Linux port.

    If the Linux version wasn't there and the 10000 Linux users won't buy anything not produced for Windows then they've sold 90000 copies. The expense of the Linux port earned an additional 10000 sales. The people who downloaded the Linux version are interpreted as Windows users who happen to occasionaly toy around with Linux, not additional market share.
  • Posted as anonymous coward right above this comment was:

    >>>> Another loser attempt to justify stealing. Theft is a crime no matter what lame face you try to put on it. You think you're justified in stealing the game simply because the Linux version will be released later? What a great example you're setting for the Linux community and a great message for manufacturers "give me what I want or I'll steal it". >>>>

    This is rediculous. This is from the same group of people who don't read online newspapers when they could buy them because "its immoral".

    First, how many of us honestly haven't borrowed a game from a friend to see if we like it? I did this with warcraft1,2 quake1,2 mechwarrior2,3, and mercenaries, half life, and i now own legit copies of all these games.
    Seccond, if I borrow my friend's copy of WinQuake3 and burn it, yet in three weeks go out and buy my own copy of LinuxQuake3, what has anyone lost? id has lost nothing - they still got my money, I lost a CD-R, seeing as how I will never use it again, my friend lost a few hours of having his game while I burn a copy.
    This isn't saying "give me what I want or i'll steal it", its saying hey, I'm going to improvise until the version I want comes out, because, hey I would rather support linux than Billy G., but until then, I'm going to chill with my friend's copy.
    Every one wins in this situation. id has lost nothing, retailers have lost nothing, linux users have to boot in windows (arrgh) for a few hours, but have lost no time when they weren't on the top of the "Latest in gaming software".
    Everyone's happy. And your outcry won't make a difference, cause this is what's going to happen anyway. So chill and go with the flow, don't get so uptight.
    ~Zero
  • My understanding was that the main reason for this was due to the Hardware Abstraction Layer, or HAL, in Windows NT. From what I understand, that was the biggest challenge with Win2K, making everything work right with all the consumer type hardware through the HAL. I don't think Microsoft intentionally "crippled" Windows NT for gaming purposes, since it costs more than Windows 9x, they just didn't anticipate the proliferation of 3D Hardware when they designed NT 4.0.
    ---

  • Read this message if you care about linux, et al.. (Score:3)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 18, 1999 @09:29AM (#1521700)
    Dear Slashdot patrons,

    I'm going to make this quick. I have already written an email to sales@compusa.com explaining that I will NOT be purchasing a Windows version of Quake3Arena, as that I will be waiting for the Linux version. I explained that if my local store did not carry the linux version of Q3A, I would be buying online.
    I also explained that I would be buying 2 copies of the software. One to open, play and enjoy. And the second purchase will be to support Id for supporting the linux community.

    I encourage everyone to take action. Let's show the retailers of this world how much weight we can carry in purchasing dollars! If we want commercial applications developed for linux, we must show the executives of the world out there that linux IS a viable market share at whatever level, this is the time.

    Stop reading this message, open up pine or netscape or whatever mail app you use and write an email to CompUSA, BestBuy, Circuit City, or whoever you would purchase software from locally.

    As one person emailing a retailer, I can't make but a dent in their concious thought.
    As a community of /.'rs and linux users, we can crush the proverbial skulls of those unwilling to accept linux as a viable solution to develop software.

    Empower yourselves!

    -Alex Shows
    a.k.a. Glossifah on irc.linux.com #blackbox
  • While I applaud JC for trying this I think it's unfortunately going to end badly. The current state of 3D acceleration support under Linux only allows Voodoo and G200/G400 owners to play at decent framerates and the Matrox drivers require a lot of technical knowhow to get working at the moment.

    I have a Nvidia card and dual boot Windows/Linux, there is no way I would buy the Linux version now and have 4 times worse performance for 6 weeks until I can download the windows version! I'm sure many other people are in the same boat.

    If Linux Q3A flops in the sales as I suspect it will, then will Id be available to convince distributors to try it again when the state of 3d support on Linux is much better?

    Id should have done this experiment once X Free 86 4.0 is out and stable...

  • It WON'T be hybrid! (Score:4)

    by FreeUser ( 11483 ) on Thursday November 18, 1999 @09:35AM (#1521704)
    And with good reason.

    If id did make the mistake of releasing a hybrid CD the results would skew the sales results distributors are watching in a way disasterous for those advocating the porting of games to Linux.

    How? Linux users are by and large more technically savvy than Windows users are on average. While the Windows gamer may not realize (or care) that they could play their copy of Quake 3 under Linux, if Linux users were in fact able to do this, many would impatiently run out and buy the hybrid version labelled Windows, because it was in the store earlier, and then load up the Linux version. Fine for them, but bad for Linux, as their purchase has just inflated the Windows sales results and deflated the Linux sales result. The net result is that that one Linux gamer's purchase has widened the Linux/Windows sales gape by TWO (-1 Linux, +1 Windows). This is not what we want, and id has wisely chosen a way to prevent this. Have a little patience -- it will likely be rewarded in coming months and years as venders and other game manufacturers begin to take Linux more seriously and come out with Linux products, with any luck in a more timely fashion.
  • There is something wierd about anyone claiming to be a serious computer user (i.e. someone who claims to love computers) who doesn't play games. I mean, I always think of people who can't play games as people who couldn't use a computer very well. So... it strikes me that you may be a "frivilous database administrator" because you see computers purely in terms of work and never something that can be used for fun. Of course, the other possibility is that your whole life is your work and you never do anything for fun at all... in which case you are probably a rather dull person.
    Here's a tip for you: no one has ever overclocked their computer so they could run Oracle at lightening speeds....
    Incidentally, the Anonymous Coward who posted the original post I'm replying to, "Serious Gamer," (not visible unless your viewing at level 0 or lower) posted a "flame bait" post, moderators advised to moderate him/her down.
  • This strategy is in *direct* contradiction to what Loki told me, which was basically "Brick-n-mortar is last on our list, so just go ahead and buy it online." I sat here when Civ:CTP came out and said that I wanted to wait for it to come out retail in order to show my dollars to the retailers. I was soundly thrashed by everybody that told me the retail market in general is full of devils who put the little software guy down, and that I should only support the online shops. Somebody even pointed me at a rant by the Bungee people, I believe it was, all about how horrid their experience was trying to get their game onto the retail shelves.

    I bought Civ:CTP off the shelf. I wanted to buy MythII, but could never find it. When Eric's Ultimate Solitaire was ready, I ordered that online because I wanted it. I personally don't even want Quake3 (never really liked deathmatch), but if I see it on the retail shelves I will buy it. I'm interested in furthering the cause of retail games for Linux more than I care about giving Id my dollars. But I won't go chasing it down like I tried to do with those other games (every mall I was in, I stopped at every store and asked for Linux games. Repeat once a week for each store, for many weeks).

  • I don't know about unreal, but Q3a has a single player mode, where the computer emulates online players. The code is pretty good, and the bots work well (they'll even hurl insults at you :)
    --
    "Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
  • is running 90 MHz, with a 500Mhz system bus, it's 128bit graphics pipeline has features (such as full screen anti-aliesng) that are only now showing up in 3d cards. It's an impressive peice of tech, and its also only running at 512x384 res, not to hard to pull off

    Dispite this, games like quake and UT really do take advantage of newer hardware. Things like multi-pass rendering etc really improve the game.

    The game is also somewhat playable on my p200mmx, with a riva128 graphics card.
    --
    "Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
  • it's pretty unfortunate that people immediately flip out over the notion of a piece of software that you buy connecting over the Internet to a machine run by the people that put the software out in order to transfer a little bit of information about the configuration of the software and the machine it's running on. it sure would be great if JC could simply insert a couple lines of code into the linux and windows bins of q3 that told iD exactly how many of each copy of the software were running on machines connected to the internet.

    I suppose the reason noone likes this is because the code that does the sending-of-information could send ANY info (including your private files) to iD since it would be closed source.

    but what if it wasnt? what if there was a little utility that ran as part of the installation process - something that ran automatically and just gave you a little heads up when it executed (I am now sending your choice of operating systems, your total amount of RAM and your video card type to such and such an IP)...

    and then just include the couple hundred lines of source on the CD too. dont even open source it if you dont want to - just provide the source so everyone whos so paranoid can verify that its doing what it says its doing.

    this would take approximately 5 minutes to code and a little while to integrate into the install process. iD, other software houses - I know someone at these companies reads slashdot - this would be a good idea.
  • The last 8 bits are known as the 'alpha channel' you can use it to store anything you want, such as transperancy, or other information.

    32bit mode is also faster, beacuse the CPU only needs to make one doubleword read/write to manipulate pixles, using 32bits just makes the programing smoother.
    --
    "Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
  • But this won't help id, or anybody else who follows the hybrid CD, or download-executable scheme. The effect of something like this would be "breaking in" the retailers for pure Linux and Mac boxed games companies, like Loki I guess. The only people this benefits are those that don't have hybrid/cross-platform/download-executable options.
  • First of all...

    It dosn't really matter how messages are passed in star trek, beacuse its not real. We havn't reached the stars yet, were all here on earth, where a beam of light can go around the world in 60ms. I can't tell you how comunications will work in the far future (or even if the human race will ever leave the planet). And certanly, the people who wrote 'star trek' can't ether.

    And secondly, they could just play in the ship...
    --
    "Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
  • Check out the latest news posting on the q3arena site about linux quake3... not a pretty sight.

    Is this how we want linux gamers to be portrayed?

    If I were very paranoid id say this was sent by someone from microsoft or similar but I dont want to be making excuses for this type of thing.
  • I believe that when John Carmack mentions that many companies will be noting the Linux sales figures, that it doesn't just mean other game companies. Hardware companies like video card makers will also be watching closely.

    Hopefully this will push them to support Linux or put more effort in improving and optimizing their Linux drivers. So in the end, even non-gamers should benefit.

    It is very amazing that id Software is willing to take initiative to attempt to prove the viability of non-MS platforms.
  • Indeed, 24bpp is about the limit of the eye's perception for color variations. The 32bpp is to accomidate computers, not people. Modern consumer processors are used to slinging numbers around in 32 bit chunks. At 32bpp, the processor (whether the CPU or the videocard's) can easily address one pixel at a time. In 24bpp, more work must be done to grab to 32bit space enclosing the pixel and then extract the pixel. 24bpp is generally used to try to squeeze a more pixels out of a specific amount of VRAM. In today's market, the monitor is often more of a limiting factor on resolution than the video card's memory is, so most programs just go for the faster 32bpp.

    Well, no.

    "32-bit color" pixels in games do indeed only have 24-bits of color--8 bits each for red, green and blue. The extra 8 bits are an alpha channel--stuff that gets used for fog, transparencies, that sort of thing. The extra 8 bits are not in any way wasted, and have absolutely nothing at all to do with "modern consumer processors", "enclosing and extracting pixels" or any such thing.

    As for the monitor being more of a limiting factor on game resolution than the video card's "memory"...well, you're wrong here, twice. First off, the limiting factor on resolution is the video card's fill-rate--the number of pixels/texels it can push out in a second. The video card's memory is primarily the limiting factor for the resolution of the textures used in the game, which is completely different from the resolution of the game as a whole.

    The monitor is a limiting factor for absolutely nothing. Even the fastest Athlon with a brand new GeForce card is barely playable for deathmatch at 1024*768 (playable is defined as around 60fps, and no, that's not even close to overkill). It'll probably take one of those obscene $600 Voodoo5's, which don't come out until March, to run 1280*1024 well. Obviously, anyone who spends $600 on a video card has a monitor which can handle 1280*1024 just fine...
  • I think there is one thing that most of you are missing. it really doesn't *matter* what version you purchase from the shop. All that matters to the companies are preorders or orders made from major ditributers [like Ingram, etc.] You can buy all the Linux/Mac versions you want from CompUSA, but those sales figures won't mean anything if Ingram buys 20:3:2 Win/Mac/Linux.

    This means that id [or other company], before you even whip out the gold card has sold 20 copies of the windows version, 3 cpoies of the mac version and 2 copies of the Linux version.

    How to solve this issue: [??]
    Well, it's kinda chicken or the egg. You have to get companies to produce/distribute multiplatform versions at the same time. If a platform version exists before another and it is brought to market, obviously that platform will have a leg up on the other versons.

    Ship hybred CDs. This of course leaves the stores to do all sorts of oddball things like charge more for the mac/linux version, count all sales as windows, etc. This will however solve the Ingram problem.

    Offer DLable package. This way, you know what you are getting via logfiles, unfort, marketers/droids/etc. don't care about logfiles, they care about pretty pictures and $$$

    This doesn't take into account all the other sundry issues, but it does give some insight on how to change things. In a way, it's kinda like voting for a US Pres. We don't *actually* vote for him, an electoral college does. Just like our purchases don't mean anything as far as sales figures goes, only the orders from the big distros [like Ingram, [not RH/slack/debian silly]]

  • I wish someone would port Warcraft II to Linux.

    Now, I've not tried it, but... Someone wrote a clone of Warcraft II for Linux. You need to own the original game for the graphics/sounds/maps/etc, but the engine is free.

    More info at the following url:
    http://happypenguin.org/show?CLONE [happypenguin.org]

    They plan to support more games in the future, such as Starcraft.

    Hope that helps.


  • I'm pleased with the performance. Even though the NVIDIA SVGA server only supports hardware acceleration with 16 bpp right now, q3test looks good and is very playable at 800x600.

    Now I haven't seen the Windows version at all, let alone with a similar setup, and I haven't cared enough to measure framerates, but the only problems I've had with the demo are my rather poor ping times and my mediocre fragging abilities. (But I'm still better than Hemos.)

    --
    QDMerge [rmci.net] 0.4!

  • J. Tang is exactly right. Carmack and Id are trying to send a message to the retailers. And remember, retailers are stupid. They don't know squat about computers, and how many Marketing-Droids at Walmart HQ know what an "Operating system" is? If you went to them and said "look at these web logs! Look how many linux binaries were downloaded! look how many cards were sent in!", they would just give you a blank look and say "Duh?"

    They only know one thing: Units. Specifically, "SKU's" (stock keeping units). that's how they internally track sales of products. If their little Excel spreadsheets show them that a certain SKU has sold well, then they will order more in the future.

    So Carmack is doing exactly the right thing by putting the Linux version in a separate box, and I for one will absolutely wait until I see a Linux box on the shelf, even if it take 2 months after the Windows release (I've waited this long already, and I have the demo version to play). If I know that it's out but I don't see a Linux version on the shelf, the I will tell the store manager that I am leaving to buy it somewhere else.

    People, we have to do this with the first 50 or so Linux games that get sold at retail. If we don't, and we wimp out and just buy the windows versions, then we will fulfill our own prophecy and never have great games for Linux.

    The only other think that I think Id could and should do is use its marketing clout to get distributors and retailers to treat the Linux version fairly. They should release the Linux version FIRST, and the, when they see it on the shelves, only THEN release the Windows version. they should go to distributors and say "We have the hottest new game in a long time. We're Id. If you want it, then treat Linux fairly."

  • The problem is, well, people like me. I own Quake and Quake II windows versions. I downloaded the Linux binaries from the iD ftp site, and away I went. But as for statistics, I bought two windows based games, even though they get run on Linux.
  • What? Carmack has said that he WILL release all binaries (and patches) after the Linux and Mac retail boxes have been delivered. To ID, they don't care about the binaries - they care about the levels (WAD, whatever format they use now...). If you have that (legally), then ID will offer you all binaries that you can handle. They've gotten your money - they don't want to charge you double for using different platforms (which is my gripe with Loki - essentially the same game on Windows but you must buy a different box for Linux - stupid, stupid, stupid).

    Carmack is just doing this so that if there is a market for Linux or Mac games, the retailers realize this. IMHO, this is a great move on his part.

    Later,
    Justin
  • Still selling well on Neo Geo Pocket...
    --
  • I dunno. But I paid real money for the Infocom Collection, Zork included.
    --
  • Well, I'm not ready to run XFree under Linux even yet (I like to use text console), I can run Q1 with SVGAlib nicely (even it does not support 3D features) and it works just nice with my RivaTNT.

    Only reason I have Windows is games, if Linux would have more quality games I would not use windows for nothing!

    FYI, Quake2 was working just fine from same CD in Windows and Linux systems (of course I had to download Linux binaries first).
    I bought my Quake 2 at very same day when they released Linux binaries (after I saw those binaries I run to store to buy that CD).

    If there is no way to use same Q3 CD with Linux and Windows, I think I must reconsider if I even like to see Q3 then (or only with Windows).

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