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Games Entertainment Your Rights Online

ZD "Objective Reporting" Not Just For Linux 203

keefer writes "Since I know /. readers are generally fans of various ZD magazines anyway, I thought I'd pass this along that I saw from Blue's News. The gist is that programmer Randy Pitchford at Gearbox Software gave a .plan update talking about a piece Family PC(a ZD mag) did relating to some under-17-year-old supposedly being able to pick up Half-Life: Opposing Force, an M-rated game (17+), without incident at a CompUSA store. However, um, the game isn't even done yet, let alone gold or on the shelves."

I thought I'd post this in the YRO section for a couple of reasons. One is that it's starting to reverberate, and has generated at least one counter-editorial. But the second is a larger point. Half-Life and similar games are marketed to adults, not children; the 20-30 year old age group purchases almost all of these types of games. Yet attackers want to restrict the sales of these games to anyone on the basis that they're unsuitable for children. The fact that Family PC misjudged the game's release date when making up their article (remember, this had to be written months ago to make it to publication now, they probably forecast that the new game would be on sale by now) makes the attack more obvious, but these sorts of attacks happen all the time from the "save the children" crowd. (Family PC makes most of their income from advertising filtering software and similar snake-oil parental protective measures.) This is how you whip up the troops to go censor the internet or whatever other target you have in mind.

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ZD "Objective Reporting" Not Just For Linux

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  • The ZD-type magazines have been fairly good, but the fact that they make up stuff casts doubt on anything they say. Sorry, I'm just not that trusting. I'm sure an 17 yr old COULD go in and buy it without incident, but still, that's not the point - they lied. However, I do agree that 17 year olds playing Half Life, and some other violent games is a bad idea - i've seen a lot of super-violent 17 year olds, and they're a scary sight. Just keep some of the obvious guns and gore away from them if their parents deem fit.
  • by Pascal Q. Porcupine ( 4467 ) on Monday October 18, 1999 @08:52AM (#1604360) Homepage
    The sad thing is that almost nobody who reads that magazine will actually understand the lies that have been fed to them. Likely they'll shrug it off as an accident where the author really just meant Half Life, and that the authors have a good point anyway since M-rated games shouldn't be accessible to kids. Or Family PC could go and say that it was just a hypothetical scenario, and their readers will believe them. People are, unfortunately, blind sheep most of the time. The readers will truly believe that their holy magazine was just looking out for theri best interests anyway, and won't feel slighted in the least by this obvious attempt at pushing censorship legislation forward.

    That said, I hope they get what's coming to them, but I don't think this is the end of any of this sort of propaganda. :/
    ---
    "'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.

  • by emufreak ( 83564 ) on Monday October 18, 1999 @08:52AM (#1604361) Homepage
    Ziff-Davis is the most biased source for news/reviews/whatever anywhere. Examples:

    Games advertised in EGM get the best reviews every time. Same thing with their other magazines, advertised stuff gets great reviews, guaranteed.

    The recent Linux vs. NT security "test." Installing a bloated service pack was OK, but they didn't install 21 RPMs that all together were less than the service pack wasn't done because it was "no enterprise would want to install all that." I wonder how much Microsoft paid them for THAT one. :D

    (etc.)

    For truthful reporting, don't buy Ziff-Davis.


    emufreak
    www.kontek.net/pp
  • by Aerolith_alpha ( 85503 ) on Monday October 18, 1999 @08:53AM (#1604362) Homepage
    I personally think that it is the parents responsibilty to keep track of their kids activities on the internet, and if the parents aren't capable of doing that, they shouldn't be allowed to whine and place artificial restrictions on the parents that ARE able to monitor their kids. Nuff said.
  • by Roofus ( 15591 ) on Monday October 18, 1999 @08:54AM (#1604363) Homepage
    From the Shugashack [shugashack.com]




    Subj: Re: Letter to the editor from Subscriber James Gillespie,North Fort
    Date: 10/12/1999 9:31:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time
    From: fpcletters@zdnetonebox.com (FamilyPC Letters)
    Reply-to: emily_friedlander@zd.com
    To: JWGflorida@aol.com
    Mr. Gillespie,

    Thanks for bringing this error to our attention. It was a typo on an editor's part that through a series of edits,
    made it to print. Watch for the correction in our January issue.

    Thanks again,
    Emily Friedlander



    Even though, I must say that is really some shady reporting!
  • To begin with, I'd like to state that I disagree with the whole game rating system. However, given that it exists, and that there are whiny parents and activists out there, I do feel it is much better than not even selling these games in your walmart or whatever.

    The problem is, in order for these people to feel secure, that have to feel that the system is working properly most of the time, and I have to say flat out, that I have never seen a kid getting carded when they bought one of the games marked "mature". Naturally, this will cause people who believe in the system to lose their faith, and they will make an outcry that we should just ban these games outright.

  • by Foogle ( 35117 ) on Monday October 18, 1999 @08:54AM (#1604365) Homepage
    First off - let's not crucify ZD right away. It is possible that it was a mistake, not a lie. A reporter unfamiliar with the specifics of individual games could have accidentally switched the names of Half-Life and another game in the same Mature-audience genre.

    Having said that I think stores like CompUSA have a very real responsibility to watch who the sell games like this to. There are certain things that kids just shouldn't be buying. There'd be WAY more outrage if the game contained sexual content, rather than violent content, but the principles of mature-viewing are the same in both cases.

    Just a little food for thought.

    -----------

    "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."

  • by evilpenguin ( 18720 ) on Monday October 18, 1999 @08:56AM (#1604366)
    This kind of story is why I don't like seeing "anti-/." stories out there. I'm over 30 and much of that youthful zeal is gone, so I frequently cringe at the loud and uninformed zealotry of some of my fellow /.ers, but usually, I think, their on line ranting is harmless and it is giving a place for a sort of populist rage to vent safely. Meanwhile, almost every thread has a few particles of true insight, information, and wisdom.

    I happily put up with the flames to find those insights I would have missed.

    One of the things I like about sites for nerds, linuxers, et. al., is the way they (we) subvert the mass media of the industry. The recent PCWeek debacle ("If I had installed the RedHat patches, I would have missed 'Baywatch.'" -- see the story on Linux Today) is a fine example of this. This story is another.

    Okay, so individuals (including me) sometimes type faster than we think. So what? We think eventually. And we don't let lies go unchallenged.

    Never be afraid to point out a falsehood! ZD deserves very little journalistic respect. This has nothing to do with the perceived OS bias, and everything to do with poor standards of fact checking and a complete lack of journalistic integrity.

    Keep your eyes open. Catch them in the act...
  • So just because they said so, you believe them? I hate to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but remember what Al Gore's assistants said after he claimed he invented the Internet? They tried to PR their way out of it by saying "What he meant to say was ..." (but of course, Gore dug his hole even deeper by saying "No, I really mean I invented the Internet"). It's easy to claim it as an editing mistake. Of course, if it really were an editing mistake, it'd be real hard to believe them.
    ---
    "'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
  • ...its just that lately it seems to be a bit
    scarce at ZD publications. I regularly read
    a variety of ZD publications and have lately
    come to feel that they are of questionable
    value for anything but the broadest news and
    announcements. Anchordesk in particular seems
    to be taking its cue from the tabloids and
    doing its best to bring this...creative...
    angle of news reporting to the tech world. More
    and more I am leaning towards sources like
    Slashdot because they are self correcting. By
    their very nature, they tend to adjust towards
    reality in the information they present. Since
    the content is representative of a large group
    of opinions, you get not only a feeling for what
    the average opinion is, but also what the counter
    points are. It's not perfect, it is prone to
    groupthink and filtration in some cases, but I
    feel that it provides a better source of news and
    views then what we are seeing from many of the
    more traditional mediums. At least with the
    Slashdot model, the people providing the bulk
    of the information (the Slashdot community) are
    separate from the people with a financial stake
    in having more hits on the site (Andover.net).
    IMHO this makes a big difference.


  • But think about it. Do you really think that ZD would try to get away with claiming to have had some 12 year old girl buy a game before it was even released? They would recieve way too much heat for that.
    Perhaps this article was meant to have been in next months issue, or maybe the author should have done some research before making up this article. At the very least he could have lied about the article with a game thats on the shelves now...or even better, wait until Q3 is released!
  • A 17 year old was able to buy a game that is supposed to be sold only to those age 17 and older? Um, why is this bad? What are they arguing?


    Do they want the age limit changed to 18 (or 21, or 25 or whatever), or do they have proof that the 17-year-old was sent by younger friends/siblings, or what? This makes no sense. :P

  • anonymous loser wrote:

    I have never seen a kid getting carded when they bought one of the games marked "mature".

    There's a good reason for that: it's not illegal for them to do so.

    For that matter, it's not illegal for a 9-year-old to see an R-rated movie. The only thing that gives R ratings any force is the theater chain's contract with the distributor. And the theater chains are required to place those restrictions by their agreement with the MPAA.

    I won't get into the "kiss-of-death" phenomenon but suffice it to say that I don't think game ratings are actually enforced by contract, they're just there as an advisory, like the "explicit lyrics" stickers on CDs. And IMHO giving them any more force than they already have would start a "kiss of death" in the gaming market.

  • by Matt2000 ( 29624 ) on Monday October 18, 1999 @09:16AM (#1604376) Homepage
    Its an interesting time for journalism and journalists right now. Especially for those publications that deal with technology related issues. With the increasing speed of developements, the proliferation of information sources and the raw speed at which a story can propogate and grow on the Internet, journalistic integrity is having a tough time weeding out the fake stuff.

    Slashdot itself is most certainly not immune to this effect and has on more than one occasion contributed to the spread of an incorrect of exagerated story, perhaps causing other more traditional media sources to pick up on the story themselves.

    Unfortunately at this point in time, we can't have both lightning fast information reporting with 100% accuracy. The two are inversely related.

    Hotnutz.com [hotnutz.com]
  • >However, um, the game isn't even done yet,
    >let alone gold or on the shelves."
    Hey, it's a good thing time doesn't exist. Now we can get our games before they're made. Excuse me, I'm going down to staples to pick up my copy of Quake 4...
  • by briancarnell ( 94247 ) on Monday October 18, 1999 @09:21AM (#1604378) Homepage
    I like FamilyPC but they have a habit of reviewing software that is never actually even released. For example the latest issue (November 1999) includes a list of recommended games that parents might want to buy for their kids. Among the games they recommend is Sierra's Babylon 5 game which was canceled last month. Not only do they recommend it but they put a little graphic next to the recomendation to indicate FamilyPC staff have actually played the game and give it a score of 89 out of 100.
  • The quote said "did relating to some under-17-year-old supposedly being able to pick up Half-Life: Opposing Force, an M-rated game (17+)"
  • There'd be WAY more outrage if the game contained sexual content, rather than violent content
    Actually, violence is the current hot issue in the media. The Columbine incident made violence much more important for parents to watch out for than just a little nudity.
    So Jonny watching lesbian sex is not as bad as Jonny watching last action hero. Make sense to you?
  • . . . did relating to some under-17-year-old . . .

    You must have missed that when you were blinking.

  • on a list far away in another time, some catholic mother suggested: "Adults should not be allowed to do anything that children aren't" - I didn't even bother to replay that if that were the case, there wouldn't BE any children :))

    Chuck
  • I used to buy every computer magazine, and within the last year stopped buying the stupidest of them because they just weren't worth it. I get PCWeek for free, subscribe to Maximum PC, and usually buy Wired and PC Magazine at the newsstand. (Linux journal has been hard to find)
    Yesterday I noticed that the newest PC Week and Wired had just come out. I went over to the Magazine rack and picked 'em both up (mostly out of habit). Then I thought for a second and realized that PC Mag is put out by Ziff Davis. I reflected for a second about the many things they've done recently and put the damn thing right back where it was. Last month's issue is most likely the last one I'll ever buy, and I'm a pretty mainstream tech guy. I know I don't matter to them because most of their money is from MS advertising, but I hope that a number of people defect and their distribution numbers go down and hurt 'em just a little. Ziff Davis no longer deserves my hard earned money.
  • is that now it's in ink (or pixels). Even if retracted, someone somewhere will quote it as another "documented" case of the system not working, so let's make another (presumably even worse) system. Way too often being in print = being the truth for too many.
  • Yes, it makes sense to me, but you're still wrong. Even though violence is the media's new rag-doll, they'd drop it like a bad habit if sexual-content came into the picture. Especially since there's nothing sensational about coverage of violent games - nobody wants to see another story about what caused Columbine.

    Seriously, you couldn't keep the media away if there was a store like CompUSA selling Playboy MPEGS (or something similarly profane) to underage kids. Here's the difference: Violence is disturbing, certainly, but sexuality is forbidden, and conservative groups know where their priorities lie.

    -----------

    "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."

  • by Gangr33n ( 103113 ) on Monday October 18, 1999 @09:31AM (#1604388)
    Yesterday, as I put my vcr on rewind after watching "The Last Broadcast" -(shameless plug for a GREAT movie better than Blair witch project (avail. at Hollywood video)) I caught a ZDNet spokesperson talking about Y2K preparedness and how ZDNet was THE company tracking all the preparedness of everyone and how THEY had all the answers. After this yo-yo said that all big companies have fixed their problems and small companies are the only ones with anything to worry about, I shut it off. I would have to form the opinion that these guys are pretty cheesey, and I wouldn't take much of anything they say as real, or factual. In fact, if they said it- I would probably have to do like I do to all the other articles I read, and prove it.
  • The first issue, whether FamilyPC conconcted they story, can be solved by producing "Tricia". Tricia presumably has her receipt and the game although not the expansion pack as claimed. It's fair to assume she bought the Half-Life: Game of the Year edition and the game title was an editorial misfire. Cash or not, the receipt will tell.

    Regardless, I think Mr. Pitchford did have a mental lapse and should have taken his reservations at the top of the .plan update all the way through to a second thought. This has nothing to do with Sierra, Valve, or Gearbox; the OpFor pack will be M-rated. CompUSA is responsible but, even so, hasn't broken a law as there isn't a penal enforcement component to the industry agreement. It's a kind of good-faith compromise.

    That's the point of the FamilyPC sidebar: legislation with teeth. An argument for media content enforcement indistinguishable from, say, tobacco laws. Why play into it, Randy? Why hold yourself as evidence for your opposition?
  • ...in order for these people to feel secure...


    Ironic that a magazine called "Family PC" is writing articles complaining about, the supposed, lack of functionality in a process that allows a parent to put less "family" into their "PC".

    If a game is carrying a ESRB rating, which is actually self imposed by the industry and totally voluntary, the parent has the tools they need to easily make a decision about their child playing the game without having to play through the game themselves. How hard is it to look at the jewel case, or even on the CD itself and see what the rating is. It's even part of the silk screen. The only way I can imagine little Susy playing a game like Half-Life, Kingpin or one of the numerous other "mature" titles out there is if the parent doesn't even put enough effort into seeing what their kid is doing.

    -sw
  • Just pointing something out: CompUSA has only a moral obligation to obey the ratings of the game publishers. There is absolutely no law requiring them to verify the age of the purchaser--and likewise, no punishment for selling it to them.

    If a 12-year-old walked into CompUSA and bought Half-life, who cares? Shouldn't the parent of that child be responsible? If you think about it, the only people who are really going to get upset about it are the parents. Then they're going to push for laws requiring an ID to purchase games. However, this will just cause the under-age folks to simply pirate the software since they're the best at that sort of thing anyway.

    I say let the kids blow the crap out of people online. If they can't do that, they're only left with reality.
    --------------------------
    -Riskable
  • by Anonymous Coward
    First of all if they wanted to make a big deal, why not have a 12 year old? I mean is Comp USA supposed to card everyone? Most bouncers and bartenders know how to spot a fake-id.. Think Comp USA does? I figure they would card very young looking people, like a 12 year old.. but 17.. Who honestly cares.. I find its amazing that they let 16 year olds drive cars, and in some states own guns but they cant buy violent video games? Geez.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 18, 1999 @09:39AM (#1604395)
    I'm concerned that there is not enough manipulation, or that the current manipulation by media/games is missing the point.

    We need games and articles that (accurately) depict programmers as sexy, desirable, stable mates to young women.

    Too many young, attractive women are bearing children by young, attractive, athletic, stupid males because of the crappy TV shows.

    Somehow, this trend needs to be reversed so future "crops" of children have the intellectual skills needed to keep technology moving forward.
  • Unfortunately, this is common media exploitation. There will always be an incident where a teenager/child/underage personage is able to rent an X, R or NC-17 rated video, cigarettes, alcohol, buy music listed as M only, a video or other game that has clear labelling as not being "appropriate" for that age group. Statistically this will always happen - its a standard bell curve situation where an outlier (an exception) has been exploited as an 'example' of how our youth is being corrupted in one form or another. These stories are so standard that I think only the names of the product and people involved get switched out now! No wonder the editor at ZD didnt catch it.... she/he probably skimmed over it as boilerplate. The fact is that most retailers are very careful who they sell too - they have a responsibility to verify ages and they are liable if they fail in it. They know they can be sued, and they do not want the publicity or the legals fees. Ultimately, I believe its up to the parents to aware of what games their kids are playing, and exert that mystical parental control over those choices. But no one benefits by having sensationalist stories printed -- except ZDNet's bottom line. (these opinions are my own - and subject to change without notice)
  • So Jonny watching lesbian sex is not as bad as Jonny watching last action hero. Make sense to you?

    You're right! If we let Jonny watch violence, he might just become violent, but if we let Jonny watch lesbian sex, he might become a lesbian, uh, what a minute.

    "Violence on TV only affects children whose parents act like TV personalities." -- David Byrne

  • by jabber ( 13196 ) on Monday October 18, 1999 @09:43AM (#1604398) Homepage
    The whole 'typo' issue aside... Mark me Offtopic if you want.

    I find the whole idea of restricting access for everyone to anything, because it is not appropriate for a subset of those interested - nauseating. Posting that idea on slashdot is sure to be marked Redundant, fire away.

    How are we to protect ourselves from those seeking to protect us from ourselves?

    As with the MPAA, TV ratings and music, is it not the parents responsibility to monitor what their kids are into?

    [rant]
    I realize that there are plenty of ingenious teens and pre-teens out there, able to pull the wool over their parents eyes - I was one of these myself. But if this is the case, than it is a failing of the parents. How can someone who does not put in enough effort to stay aware, raise a child? How can a child from such a home grow up with any sort of respect for authority (boss, law, peers) if they see their own parents as full of ignorance, incompetance and apathy.
    [/rant]

    Yes, technology moves fast, and working parents have a hard time keeping up with it - while kids have plenty of disposable time. But really, is it so difficult to talk to your kids, peek in on the lucky few that have their own PCs? Stay aware?

    Conversely, as a future parent (God willing), after I approve a game for my kids entertainment, I want them to be able to go and get it themselves. I want the decision about what they can and can not do to be made at home, and not in a board room or a court room.

    Frankly, the whole politically correct and sue-happy attitude is starting to trouble me. Cinema managers requiring that parents be present, after they permit their kids to see South Park? Clerks policing who can and can't buy a video game? You can't send a kid to school with aspirin, because it is a drug, and we know what school rules say about dealing drugs in school. Five year olds getting thrown out of kindergarten for kissing a classmate on the cheek...

    It looks like this (video game availability over the counter) is going to become another instance of parents abdicating control to some organized, rightist organization - just to avoid taking the time to explain to their kids why they feel that blasting people's avatars into oblivion is inappropriate.

    Feels like we're reaching critical mass here. But unlike the Japanese uranium workers, I'm starting to see red, not blue.
  • As Jean Liuse Gassie(I mutilated is name, sorry) the founder of Be said "in america, we can watch people getting there heads blown off, but we can't watch people giving blowjobs" (or somthing like that)

    The truth is, there's nothing Wrong with sex at all, what would happen to little Johny if he saw two women making out? Oh, No!! he might become aroused!!! AHHHH.

    I mean, come on what does porn actualy *do* to kids? nothing!

    I personaly don't think that images of violance do any harm to little kids ether, but some do. However, I really doubt it's less damaging then sexual content.
    "Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
  • "without lack of context there'd be no news" --Douglas Adams
  • Well, I don't quite see the future of man that way - I see it closer to Brave New World, where nobody gives about anything but their soma. I think that that's the danger in becoming complacent about these things - are we going to let games, etc. be our soma?
  • We need games and articles that (accurately) depict programmers as sexy, desirable, stable mates to young women.
    Speaking as a bisexual female programmer, I can but agree. But I don't think that's what you meant. I think you meant to imply that programmers are male.

    The typical action video game is going to have to stretch a bit to make a programmer character, though. *I've* never seen Lara Croft sit down at a keyboard.

    Good luck with your search for the intellectual skills needed to keep technology moving forward.

  • The sad thing is that almost nobody who reads that magazine will actually understand the lies that have been fed to them
    Let's do something radical. I know it goes against the grain, but let's wait until next month. If ZD publish a full (and prominent) apology for the mistake, we'll chalk it up to the Shit Happens Fairy. If they don't, well...
  • Waittaminute!! It says that John Dvorak was the first president of the United States... (GASP) You're right! ZD is censoring my history books.

    I don't give a rats ass what ZiffDavis does. The only reason I posted that last message was because I hate to see people just to conclusions. I always give people/groups the benefit of the doubt, regardless of whether they'd do the same for me. It's not about censorship (well it is, but not for me), it's about what is, and isn't, lousy journalism.

    Certainly they made a blunder. Possibly a large one. But I won't sit here (from a position of not having any hard facts, except what I've read here at Slashdot) and make a judgment on the people at Ziff Davis - It's just not how I operate, and I'd hope that some other people out there feel the same way.

    -----------

    "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."

  • I think that the Save the Children crowd is the scariest political phenomena of the last few decades.

    Personally violence disgusts me and I think there is too much in the media. I particular like gratuitous violence that has little or nothing to do with the plot. So i have made the incredible step of avoiding veiwing such violent content. I have plenty of friends IRL and online that serve as my personal guide to movies and games. The capalert site is also great for this in movies( i also find it hilarious; read the review of Tarzan for a real laugh)

    The Save the Children crowd don't seem to think that controlling their own viewing and the veiwing of their children is enough. Itshould be enough for anyone, but they want more. They want access to all content they disapprove of limited for everyone. To meet this goal they use children as an excuse and then try to whip up outrage that children may have access to these things, and thus we must give over our rights to Save the Children.

    Articles like the false one in Family PC serve their politial agenda. I don't care for that, but the fact that the magazine is guilty of sloppy editing or outright falshood makes me smile. It highlights the inherent sloppy thinking and deception in this political movement.

    If they really want to do something about kids and these games why not make a site like CAPAlert for games? That might give people information that they can use to avoid games they would dissapprove of and even *gasp* monitor their own child's PC.

    But they don't want that. They want to control my PC, and yours. I won't let them, I hope you won't either.
  • not that I'm a friend of EGM anymore (it's totally gone to crap after Steve, Ed, Martin and Sushi left. RIP the original Review Crew), but I do have to disagree with you. If you would recall a recent issue of EGM where they reviewed Superman. The main editor of the mag (john Davidson or something), gave it a 0.5 out of 10... Stating that it should get at least half a point for just booting up. The kicker is, the magazine had been hawking it up for months. it was hysterical. They also gave low points to Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver because of the fact that it was unfinished... and they had a huge feature on it a few issues back. Luckily, there are still things at EGM that won't change, such as:

    THQ is a half-assed outfit.
    Acclaim games will always suck.
    Movie-Based Games will always suck (except Goldeneye).
    Games based on licenses (spawn, McKids, etc) will suck worse than a broken hoover.

    I do have to agree with you on the "Linux VS. NT" test, as they borked it all up. Although I really don't think they were "paid" by micro$haft, they most likely fixed the outcome to stay in microsoft's favor. Considering all the "alternative OS" crap they've been mentioning, Microsoft's gotta be pretty peeved at their little llamas.

    For official Magazines, here's my picks:
    PC: Maximum PC [maximumpcmag.com]. they like linux, and are pretty straight-up. They even interviewed Linus Torvalds in their last issue of Boot (when they were still called that).
    Linux: either Linux Magazine [linuxmagazine.com] or Maximum Linux. [maximumlinuxmag.com]
    PC Gaming: PC Accelerator. good, and funny.
    Console Gaming: GameFan. [gamefan.com] They're also keen on emulation (as seen by www.vintagegaming.com [vintagegaming.com])

    DavesClassics is dead. Long live Zophar.net [zophar.net]

  • >Most bouncers and bartenders know how
    >to spot a fake-id.. Think Comp USA does?

    Comp-USA doesn't have to care about fake IDs. Game censorship isn't a law (yet). The game ratings are not mandatory. If Comp-USA doesn't card the kid, that may be morally wrong, but it's not illegal.

    >I find its amazing that they let 16 year
    >olds drive cars, and in some states own guns
    >but they cant buy violent video games

    What do you honestly expect in the country where I can be drafted into the army, own a gun, enter into a binding contract and marry, but I can't buy a beer?
  • by cje ( 33931 ) on Monday October 18, 1999 @09:59AM (#1604412) Homepage
    Excuse me, I'm going down to staples to pick up my copy of Quake 4...

    Why?

    Quake 5 is much cooler anyway. Don't waste your money on 4.
  • Since appearantly their first reaction is to find an excuse "It's just a typo." (according to reports above), I don't feel any need to give them too much benefit of the doubt. Of course being associated with that particular publisher doesn't help their credibility much, and their reported source of income damages it even more...
    It's not enough to convict in a court of law, but I can change my mind if I get new evidence.
  • "I particular like gratuitous violence"

    That should read "I particularly do not like gratuitous violence".

    One day i will get the hang of proof reading.
  • by rde ( 17364 ) on Monday October 18, 1999 @10:07AM (#1604416)
    Speaking as a bisexual female programmer
    I wouldn't mind a job programming bisexual females. Where do you work and are there any open- uh, employment opportunities?
  • Actually, I see nothing wrong with kids who choose to watching lesbian sex. Or any mutually consensual act. And I do consider violence being approved of to be very bad (just this side of "clear and present danger").

    OTOH, I sure don't represent contemporary community values.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    I saw a story on some news show last night about how an 18 year old can legally buy a Barret light .50 sniper rifle and purchase armor piercing rounds through mail order. Is Half-life really the primary issue regarding our safety from other peoples' homicidal kids. I suppose we look at things more subtly, "The kid won't know how to use the damn thing if we don't let him play Half-life."
  • You mind sensless killing ?? Don't play Quake. Without this Quake is pointless.
    On the other hand, if you like nudity,don't play games - browse the web ...
    hehehe
  • I'll second your first sentement.
    Since when did any industry become "in loco parentis" for the next generation? Perhaps I am still young and idealistic, but as a someone who claims to do a little thinking of my very own, I am rather distraught at the fervor that is raised every time the new surrogates fail at a job that shouldn't be theirs in the first place.

    The fact that parents are paranoid enough to purchase such shody reporting is testament to the fact that they have shirked their duty. Who has reason to be afraid when they do something right?
    Not I, and I wager not many in this discussion.
    Our children will grow up with computers whether or not we like it, whether or not they grow up with morals or ethics is up to us.

    Avoiding your duty and then whining that the system isn't doing it's job is an attribute that should be attributed to either ignorance or cowardice. I don't see a good option there
  • You give them a lot more credit for honesty and ethics than I do these days. I'm afraid that the recent shenagains over Linux testing have, for me, dowsed the credibility of anything that they publish. If they said the sky was blue, I'd probably say "O, really." and wait until someone else had reported it before believing.



  • Having said that I think stores like CompUSA have a very real responsibility to watch who the sell games like this to. There are certain things that kids just shouldn't be buying. There'd be WAY more outrage if the game contained sexual content, rather than violent content, but the principles of mature-viewing are the same in both cases.

    I don't want CompUSA deciding which games my kids play, thank you.

    Why is that parents in America no longer want to raise their children. I'll tell you what, if I'd tried to bring a game in to my house that my mom thought was too violent or too sexy... it would be gone. Plain and simple. (And oddly she was much more liberal than these ratings.)

    If you had the sex, you bear the responsiblity to raise your kids. Don't push it off on the government, the corporations or the poor over-worked teachers. If you do, don't be suprised if they take the 'easiest' route. Think 1984 or farenheit 451.

    Freedome of choice goes like this: I feel at age 12, my kids should be be allowed to play quake. (not Q2 or Q3, but Q1). You may disagree.

    That's your right and mine.

  • That's funny to hear, 'cuz the way i read ZD's crap their bias is against Microsoft products. Either way, their articles are untruthful, unresearched and as far as i'm concerned, unread.

    P.S. If they'd put Halflife instead of Halflife: Opposing Force I might believe their lie about a misprint. I've worked for a news organization before and when you mess up you don't acidentally add words, you leave them out.
  • ...I think it's quite possible they made a calculated risk, given that the game would probably be out by now when they wrote the article. They assumed that the reader would find it more interesting because it would be about current games, not some year-old game.

    However, in the case that this failed, which it did, they have the backup plan of saying, "Someone mistakingly added the the 'opposing forces', assuming it was the full title of Half-Life."

    It's pretty important in journalism to get the scoop (for news items) and also to be current in the 'information' you present. I wouldn't put this kind of thing above anyone.
  • The recent Linux vs. NT security "test." Installing a bloated service pack was OK, but they didn't install 21 RPMs that all together were less than the service pack wasn't
    done because it was "no enterprise would want to install all that." I wonder how much Microsoft paid them for THAT one. :D



    I didn't hear about the security test, but idiots exist in every large company. That doesn't mean that zd is anti-linux.
    One of the more respectable shows on ZDTV is a show about PC computing called "the screen savers", and the host of the show is a linux advocate, and just had some guests from SVLUG on this week.
  • And what about all the "hotfixes" you have to install to get the service pack to work? I had NT on my box long ago and after installing service pack 3, all I could do was boot to the blue screen of death. Apparently, SP3 didn't like my virus scanner (McAffee or Dr. Sol, I can't remember) I had to reinstall NT, reinstall SP3, install the hotfixes (3 of them, I think), and then reinstall the av. 21 RPMS==30 seconds while one service pack (and all the other related BS)==4 hours. &ltsarcasm&gtYup, sure looks like NT is the solution for me.&lt/sarcasm&gt
  • Yeah right. They expect me to believe that they actually did the "test" described, but did it with something like Quake 2 that's actually out, and mistyped "Quake 2" as "Half Life: Opposing Force"? Making a typo like that isn't very plausible.

    It seems fairly clear that they didn't do any of the "research" described, but merely fabricated a story to try to support one of their points. If I were the developer or CompUSA, I'd sue for libel, since it's clear they never attempted to carry out the actions they're denouncing Gearbox Software and CompUSA (mostly CompUSA, since they're the ones allowing the child to buy the game) for allowing them to carry out.
  • You're absolutely correct - CompUSA has no place deciding which games my kids play. As a parent, I have a definite responsibility to make sure I know what my children are doing/watching/playing. I don't need a company to mandate this.

    That said, while CompUSA has no place deciding what my children play, they definitely have a place deciding what they sell to children. It's analagous to stores selling cigarettes to minors. It's not really their responsibility to make sure kids aren't smoking, but they have no right selling my kids something objectionable.

    Would you say that it's okay for Sam Goody's to sell a porno to a 12 year old? Of course not! If you did, I'd say you're a sicko. A parent depends on outlets to be responisible in what they sell. It's not a crutch for parenting, it's just assistance.

    -----------

    "You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."

  • Do you mean it's ok to invent your stories? Or something else?
    Slashdot tends to be opionated and biased, just like every other group. But anyone who chooses to bother is also capable of refuting what was said. If they don't bother, that's their choice. If they do, and are just unconvincing... that can happen in any discussion.

    What they can't do is rig things so that theirs is the only voice.... (well, unless they're slashdot).
  • Doesn't matter either way, I have enough trouble finding availabe female programmers that I don't want anyone depicting them as desirable to the rest of the male half of the species. I'm willing to compete w/women for for geeks, but keep the non-geek guys the hell away from my potential gene pool:}
  • The argument I've always seen for the labeling of software (and music, etc.) when it's first proposed is that it will simply be a tool for parents to decide what to buy for their children. The reasonable person then says "well, that's reasonable" and they go ahead and do it.

    Now, apparently, the game ratings need to be followed by the store clerks, who, quite often, wouldn't be old enough to buy the games themselves.

    What? Where did that come from? Is it a voluntary bit of information or a hard and fast rule? Are they looking to provide parents some control over their children, or are they trying to control everyone?

    I can tell you that the first time someone cards me when trying to buy a video game, I'm going to kill everyone in the store. I'll kill all the children in the store TWICE.

    So in order to protect the children from my violent rampage, lawmakers best not make it a legal requirement to check ID for the purchace of a video game. Think of the children!

    -LF

    Please note: This article contains sarcasm.
  • by Anonymous Coward

    Well, not really. But basically I'm more surprised when journalists get something right, not when they get it wrong. Think how polluted your kids minds are with all the sensationalist crap the media imposes on them. Relentless, non-stop past 'em on the walls, spam them on every webpage and on every media circuit ads hurt kids more than any video game will. Journalists are just there to sell the sensation to get the ad dollars in. Any preachyness on their part to truth and integrity is crap. It's just another form of advertisment, sell themselves to the ad makers who are handing out the bucks. Welcome to the 21st century.

  • I seriously doubt that 99.9% of the population has the skill to hit anything with a Barret that isn't immediately in front of them and within a range of 20 feet, much less something 1.5 klicks away. Ability to buy, and ability to effectively use are two completely different things.
  • *I've* never seen Lara Croft sit down at a keyboard.

    I'm pretty sure I saw her using a laptop during one of those inter-level movies. Uh, not that I've memorized everything she does, mind you.

  • by Anonymous Coward
    I have played Half-life, Doom, Quake, Duke3d, etc. for years and I haven't been brainwashed. Now shut the f**k up before I kick your a** you liberal censoring p***y b***h. People like you should be shot with a BFG9000 at point-blank range.
  • The same point can be made of the MPAA, and look where that's gotten to.

  • More like a typo by a million monkeys, who happened to type coherent sentences. At least coherent enough to be edited to something legible.
  • Chandler wrote: i've seen a lot of super-violent 17 year olds

    So have I. In Britain we call them "the army". You can sign up at 16. So what's the fuss over 18-rated games when you can start killing for real two years younger?

    Today's BBC story about the UK's "child soldiers" [bbc.co.uk]

    Heck, in the UK you can leave school and get married at 16- if your parents agree. At least with the army you get out after 3 years of non-stop violence...

    --

  • That said, while CompUSA has no place deciding what my children play, they definitely have a place deciding what they sell to children. It's analagous to stores selling cigarettes to minors. It's not really their responsibility to make sure kids aren't smoking, but they have no right selling my kids something objectionable. Actually it is a stores responsiblity to make sure they don't sell cigarettes to childern... becuase it's the law. OTHO, how is CompUSA supposed to know what parents do or don't find objectionable? Sorry, it's still the parents responsiblity. Why should we let a corporation make our morale descisions? Until the rating system is written into law, CompUSA has no more responsiblity for childern playing Half-life than the playboy channel does for kids seeing naked women if the adults left the channel on. Would you say that it's okay for Sam Goody's to sell a porno to a 12 year old? Of course not! If you did, I'd say you're a sicko. A parent depends on outlets to be responisible in what they sell. It's not a crutch for parenting, it's just assistance. Again, it's the law that selling porno to childern is illegal. Until the people who oppose violent/sexy games get together and force the gov. to change the law, that's the way it is. This sensational stuff about "Ohhh scarey: Our Childern can buy Quake." Is just a way to sell magazines. CompUsa is not legally or morally (and as far as I'm concerned) culpable for selling video games. It's that simple. As for whether that should be changed... I defy anyone to show me 1 piece of well-established, ethical, scientifically conducted research that shows a statistically significant correlation between exposure to violence as a child and poor mental health. As of yet, this correlation has not been proven (which is not true for exposure to pornography as a child or in the case of cigarettes their health.) RobK
  • The difference is that cigarettes and a porno mags can be used outside the home, completely away from any type of adult supervision. To play a computer game, you need a computer, which, generally, is going to be in someone's home. If little billy buys a game, he's either going to have to play it at his house, his friend bobby's house, or school. If his parents don't want him to play it at home, he won't. If the school doesn't want it played at school, he can't. If bobby's parents don't mind bobby playing that kind of game, he might already have a shelf full that type game that billy's already played, even though billy didn't purchase it and billy's parents didn't know about it.

    Point being, you have to watch what your child is doing in your house, but even if you patrol the house, most kids generally will have access to things you don't want them to. There's always going to be something or someone out there that will be tempting for them to do when you're not there even if there's laws against it and their only defense is for you to raise your child to know what's right and wrong and what's acceptable and to hope he does the right thing.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    You completely missed the point, my fellow AC'er.

    The issue is, people freak over a 17 year old buying Half Life and they're OK with 18 yr olds buying large sniper rifles?

    That is rather ridiculous. Which would YOU want in the hands of a warped mind? *grin*
  • What a timely comment! I just finished Slant by Greg Bear last night, and one of my favorite quotes was something like "Would you rather have your child watch real sex or fake violence?" (horribly paraphrased). Of course, in the book this question actually made senators withdraw censorship legislation, but we can hope, right?
  • but they have no right selling my kids something objectionable.
    And once again we have the question, who decides what's objectionable? Your answer and mine are likely to be quite different. For instance...
    Would you say that it's okay for Sam Goody's to sell a porno to a 12 year old?
    I may be sliding into devil's advocate mode here, but...doesn't bother me in the least. It neither "picks my pocket nor breaks my leg", as Jefferson said in a different context. C'mon, if he wants to see one he's going to do so whether you approve of it or not. Back in the pre-VCR days, I think we'd all discovered Penthouse thru someone's father's collection by the time we were around that age.

    If a kid's old enough to be interested in sex, the only thing to do is to start teaching them the biological and ethical knowledge they'll need to become sexually healthy adults.

    Of course not! If you did, I'd say you're a sicko.
    Not the first, probably not the last.
    A parent depends on outlets to be responisible in what they sell. It's not a crutch for parenting, it's just assistance.
    I'm not responsible for assisting you in raising your kid in the manner you choose, especially if I disagree with it.
  • Computer games are quite different from porn magazines or cigarettes, however. Those two items can be easily hidden from parents, consumed on the way home from school or something. Cigarettes are also physically harmful. Computer games, on the other hand, require a computer to play. If a parent is not home often enough, or paying enough attention, to notice when his or her kids are playing an "objectionable" computer game, that parent is not fulfilling his or her responsibilities. Kids cannot secretly play these games while on the bus coming home from school.
  • Actually, I assume they are scared that they will be sued or be on the wrong end of a lot of very bad press. Thats something no company can afford.

    And as for the press - they survive by creating sensationalist stories that keep the mass audience's attention. There are few newspapers/magazines that maintain any sort of integrity these days -- hence the pleasant shock of Jane's recent threads.

  • by Bantik ( 89939 ) on Monday October 18, 1999 @11:03AM (#1604460) Homepage

    This is all culled from the Softbank web site, at http://www.softbank.co.jp/ [softbank.co.jp]. Read on and be frightened:

    Business Overview:

    • Distribution and wholesale sales of software and peripheral hardware equipment for PCs
    • Merchandise planning
    • Publishing of books and magazines regarding PC software, hardware, games and computer terms
    • Consulting services and technical support of computer networks and system integration
    • Provide information and other miscellaneous services relating to computers

    Subsidiary Companies:

    • SOFTBANK Logistics, Inc.
    • SB NETWORKS Corp. (formerly SOFTBANK Technologies, Inc and SOFTBANK NETWORK CENTER CORPORATION)
    • Softbank Ventures, Inc.
    • SoftVenture Capital Corp.
    • SKY Entertainment Corp.
    • MEDIABANK Corp.
    • GAMEBANK Corp.
    • Yahoo Japan Corp.
    • GeoCities Japan Corporation
    • SOFTBANK Holdings Inc.
    • SOFTBANK Forums (formerly SOFTBANK Expos)
    • SOFTBANK COMDEX Inc.
    • Ziff Davis, Inc.
    • SOFTBANK Kingston Inc.
    • Kingston Technology Company
    • SOFTBANK Content Services Inc. (formerly Phenix Publishing Systems, Inc.)
    • SOFTBANK Services Group (UCA&L)
    • SOFTBANK Interactive Marketing Inc.

    Associated Companies:

    • Japan Sky Broadcasting Co., Ltd
    • Cyber Communications Inc.
    • PASONABANK Inc.
    • Novell Japan Ltd.
    • SOFTBANK Korea Co., Ltd.
    • Japan Cisco Systems KK
    • Trend Micro Inc.
    • Kinesoft Development Corporation
    • Express Plus, LLC
    • UTStarcom, Inc.
    • Yahoo Inc.

    For more, see these news releases:

    There may be objective news sources (I don't know), but ZD is not one of them.

    --Bantik

  • Maybe you'd have better luck if you weren't so territorial?

    I certainly understand your willingness to compete with women if they're 100% of your solution set; that just creates more of a "target-rich environment", as Maverick was wont to say in "Top Gun".

    But the bi girls will like you better if you don't chase the guys away. If you wanna ignore half the race as playmates, that's *your* problem :-)

  • *I've* never seen Lara Croft sit down at a keyboard.

    I'm pretty sure I saw her using a laptop during one of those inter-level movies.

    At the end of the first level of TR2. (Disclaimer: I just finished the level yesterday, so it's fresh in my mind)

    np: King Crimson "In The Court Of The Crimson King"
  • I think for myself, I don't get brain washed. And anybody who thinks otherwise is a moron who doesn't deserve to have a brain.
  • On the other hand, if you like nudity,don't play games - browse the web ... Better yet, get off the stupid computer and go find a willing and attractive member of the appropriate sex who'll let you do more than look...

    (I know, I know, I should take my own damn advice.)

    I never understood the allure of pornography for adults. Sex is a participatory sport, not a spectator event. It's much more fun to be on the field than in the stands.

    But hey, it's your choice.

  • what a suprise -- a member of a group that yaps constantly about hate spouts words of hate herself.


    Yep. Well, we'll let you know when we are yapping about whining to let you have chance at that one too.
  • by AME ( 49105 )
    Quake 5 is much cooler anyway. Don't waste your money on 4.

    Except that Quake 5 won't run on your pitiful Dual PII-650. You'll need at *least* a Octium-5Ghz processor with a minimum of 16 Terabytes of RAM.

    Since none of this has been invented yet... Wait! If time doesn't exist then this is all obsolete hardware -- pick one up at the local sidewalk sale for pocket change. Quake 5 is probably already installed.

    But why would you want to play that when "Quake: Fourth Mellinium" will have been out for so long some day?

  • I'm not 17, but I was 3 years ago. Whats with the BS about 17 year olds too young to play quake? I guess you all are like, "well 17 year olds can't play but its cool for 18 year olds to play." What kind of BS is that? The age difference between 17 and 18 is ONE year, less then that if its the day before their 18th birthday. When you age from 17 to 18 on your birthday, you don't change and turn around in one day. Whats the difference between a 17 and an 18 year old playing half life? 1 Year and not much else maturity wise. When I was 17 I acted 18 and when I was 18 I acted 17, wanna know how thats possible? Because 17 and 18 year olds act just the same.
  • It's a very real possibility. They probably confuses Opposing Force (which is an add-on to Halflife) with the Half-Life Game of the Year Edition (Which is just Half-Life in a different box. Go marketing!).

    Of course, I suppose somebody might point out that it is equally likely that this is the reason that they made this error when they "made up" the article. Take your pick. Personally, I'm not quite ready to start rolling out the conspiracy theories (and I'm normally one of the first people to do so).

  • Is it not the parents responsibility to monitor what their kids are into?

    You're assuming that if parents bear responisiblity for rearing their children well, parents must be the only ones with this responsibility. But why must they be the only ones responsible? In civil cases, law courts routinely apportion responsibility to different parties.

    I acknowledge that parents bear the most responsibility to see to it that their kids don't become violent sociopaths. Perhaps those who post on this topic could consider the possibility that other people and institutions might also bear some responsibility in this regard.
  • by Anonymous Coward

    Mark me Offtopic if you want.

    Ah, that old trick. Nothing is surer to get you marked up than to request being marked down. Go ahead and mark this as flamebait, moderators! You moderators suck! I dare you to mark this down!

    No, wait.. -2, argh!!! Glub, blub, blop...

  • The main focus of the pro-ratings enforcement editor seems to be that "industry spokespeople" are merely enforcing an agreed upon ratings system. For those that recall, when the ratings system was first put in place, it was explicitly mentioned that it would not be used to restrict the purchase of games.

    Funny how these things work. Ratings are a vehicle that provide an easy target for censorship. Once you can get sales restricted to age groups, none of the major publishers and game company VCs will put money towards a game that isn't rated G. The vast majority of small shops that produce real games (aka games with mature content) will fold or be forced to sell out. It's a very simple process and it's worked before with motion pictures.

    Particularly disturbing is the implication that the industry spokespeople actually exist and that they represent the wishes of the consumer and the development shops. When was the last time you saw all the gaming companies agree on something?

    Kill the censors, before they make everything "kid safe".
  • Speaking as another bisexual female programmer, I don't think we should portray programmer men as attractive mates for pretty little females at all. I think we should portray them as suitable mates for the scores of lonely scab-encrusted behemoth women who are intelligent enough to appreciate the beautiful internal logic of the warped minds in their gelatinous undersunned bodies.

    I can't tell you how many times I frustratedly tried to get the attention of a seemingly intelligent male who only had eyes for airhead princesses who goggled stupidly at his witty comments. Although I tried to tell myself that they were just too insecure to want to date someone who was as smart as they were, I'm sure it also had something to do with the fact that they were unwilling to open themselves up to the possibility that they might date someone who looked less than perfect. As if dating an average-looking, intelligent women was somehow admitting that they also were less than perfect looking. Or something.

    However, speaking as another bisexual female programmer, I also think that we should create a militant faction of cyberdykes and create a futuristic outpost somewhere in Montana where we will develop plans for our mind-control ray with which we will take over the world.

    /Caitlin

  • They have lots of nice plausible deniability in that they can simply call it a typo and claim it was some other version of Half Life.
  • It's not that the parents need to monitor *every* single thing the child is doing (Gawd, that'd be horrible! I *hated* being watched over the shoulder)

    My brother (who, funnily, is 17 and went through his share of violent games and turned out fairly normal other than having too much passion for C++..) shares the same view as I do. We hate parental monitoring not because we hate our parents, but because the idea is stifling.

    I think the parental duty needs to reach deeper. They need to firsthand establish a value system in their kids where the kids will "learn" and "think" for themselves and come to the conclusion that "hey this is not a good idea". With that rooted, I think the parents will have much better time dealing with the kids. My parents don't know all the games we played, but we, in turn, never got into the gore-fest and porn-littered games. It just never appealed to us. They already know that we play "violent" games but that we take take full responsibility for our actions. Establishing that kind of value is more important than freaking out over one kid buying a M rated game.

    Sorry for this severely off-topic post. I couldn't resist.

  • The Save The Children crowd do not want to hear the argument "But everyone else's parents said yes!" If one parent lets their kid buy the game, all of that kid's friends will get the game (probably by copying it illegaly, thus making the fact that anyone can buy the game at CompUSA a moot point). If they had faith in the way they had raised their child, they would know that their child was conditioned to be able to play games with gratuitous violence and not go psycho.
  • by Anonymous Coward

    I'm speaking as the mother of a barely 16 year old teenage girl.

    First off, this whole notion is crap - online, in games, anywhere. There isn't anything she can get online or see in a game that she couldn't get at the library - and that's been so for many, many years - I know, I read all SORTS of garbage when I was a kid. It didn't harm me any, and I doubt my child is stupid enough to be harmed by such things.

    She's been online since she was 10, and without supervision at all since she was 12, and as far as I can tell, looking up dirty stuff online hasn't traumatized her anymore than me reading dirty books from the library harmed me at her age (and much younger).

    Secondly, the whole "Well, violence is bad, but sex is REALLY bad" thing burns me up. I'd much rather kids were learning about pleasure than about harming one another. Our values as a society are really screwed up when it's OK to watch simulated murders but simulated sex is a big no-no.

    Other thoughts I've written on this topic are archived here: Kids and Sexuality [magenta.com]

  • I'm still skeptical as to how this could be a mistake. If they went in and purchased a game, and the box did not say "Opposing Force" anywhere on it, how did the writer end up "accidentally" writing that in the article? Assuming the writer actually checked the facts, the box should've been fairly easy to read. The only way to get "Opposing Force" is to either get the game information from somewhere other than the box, or to make up the whole story in the first place.
  • by willfe ( 6537 )
    Thanks for that dose of wisdom.

    Aside from the overblown *value* of the fines, the suggestion is still valid. I have to agree with the suggestion -- hell yes, people should take some responsibility for what they print as fact.

    A printing or spelling error is quite different than an error in fact-finding (or failure to do any fact-finding at all) or an attempt to sway public opinion with "creative skewing of the facts." Wouldn't you agree?

    Then again, if we *did* punish folks for spelling errors and such, we wouldn't have to read your posts either. Hehehehe :)

    BTW, isn't it a bit sad that we as a nation would be in horrid trouble if we enacted penalties for spelling and grammar errors? Even I agree that we'd lose 99% of our voice -- not a whole lot of people seem to practice the seemingly ancient art of proper grammar and spelling these days :(

    (Patiently waiting for someone to spot a spelling or grammar error in my post :)
  • Sure, they might still buy armor-piercing rounds, but they'd be far more likely to purchase a weapon which could be conveniently and safely hidden inside their letterman's jacket.

    However, you can't learn how to use any kind of weapon by playing Half-life on your computer. To suggest that is to delude one's self. It takes hands-on experience to learn how to load the weapon, release the safety, aim and pull the trigger.

    Generally speaking, while video games may lead to eyestrain and repetitive motion disorders, they are not deadly weapons.
  • You are absolutely right, When I was in grade school I always liked to watch violent movie i.e. Robo Cob,Predator, Full Metal Jacket ,etc, and now I have very few violent tendinces. The difference is that my parents, where really being parent's and tought me the difference between right and wrong. If I ever did anything like take a gun to school or any bullshit like that, I would want the police to arrest and put me in prison, because it would be easier that if my parents got a hold me after pulling a stunt like that.
  • That's basically what I was saying, yes.
    ---
    "'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
  • Umm, if I was a parent and I choice that I wanted my kid to be able to play this game. I could go out and buy it for him/her. If I didn't want them to play this game, they won't be allowed to waste their money on buying it, to only have me throw it away. I don't see the problem here. And yes, I still would have to pay attention to what they download and borrow from friends. But I have a hard time seeing as how this takes power away from the parents. Now if I wasn't allowed to buy the game with my kid accompaning me, or have another friend who is over 18 buy it for me, then I would say that the retailers are crossing the bounds, into the lands that movie theators have reciently entered.
  • Yes. Brainwashing is bad. We should get rid of our education system, revamp it so that we teach kids to be critical thinkers instead of accepting the status quo.

    We should also get rid of television. The media serves to maintain the status quo as well.

    I'm perfectly happy entertaining myself on the Internet.
  • Common, you have to add PC Accel to that.
    hehe (note its like Maxium cept for gamers)
  • Well if a parent bought his or her elementary schooler a laptop, that parent has problems to begin with...

I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them. -- Isaac Asimov

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