GeoHot Asks For Donations To Fight Sony 470
mede writes "In an interesting turn of events, Sony might have stumbled into a tough nut to crack. George Hotz (aka GeoHot) famous for his iPhone hacking achievements, is planning on fighting the big corporation on removing his free speech rights at utilizing his fully paid for hardware. Hotz has always claimed being anti-piracy (since iPhone activities) and says he has never pirated any game or even signed PSN agreements. He's asking for donations to fight Sony back and try to achieve something similar to what was previously accomplished by the EFF with regard to cellphones. I've already donated."
$20 for the fighting spirit (Score:4, Insightful)
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Matching your donation
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Matched, and the only sony device I have is an alarm clock!
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1 too many!
i think i have a few sony branded audio CDs around and 1 or two DV tapes.
usually because that's all that was stocked and i was in a hurry. monopolies and category killing isn't my favourite way of securing a sale, but whatevs.
Re:$20 for the fighting spirit (Score:5, Funny)
I haven't bought a Sony product since the portable AM/FM/Weather radio I bought for when I walk the dog and want to listen to the Blackhawks game.
But besides throwing $20 into the Geohot pot just because Sony has been fucking with them so badly, I think I'm going to go out and buy my first PS3 - a used model that I'm going to buy just so I can hack it. Then, I'll find some deserving 13 year-old and give the jailbroken PS3 to him or her. And a stack of blank DVD-Rs.
Contributing to the delinquency of a minor? Perhaps, but I'm just continuing in the tradition of the 19 year old with the fake IDs who bought me and my pals beer when I was just a little shrimp. And look how I turned out. OK, bad example, but I'm still gonna go out and buy a used PS3 to hack.
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I realize you're probably trying to be funny, but that sort of mindset is tremendously frightening. Many of us are nerds, and giving a jailbroken PS3 to a neighborhood kid that you know already has geeky tendencies could be a great way to introduce them to programming. Adults that might use a jailbroken PS3 for development have likely already bought one, whereas kids don't necessarily have the funds to do so.
Donating a (jailbroken) console, plus development tools, to a kid is a way of donating to the futu
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$50 from me as well. This is BS and while not everyone agrees with the work he has done the methods being used to shut him down MUST be fought!
Re:$20 for the fighting spirit (Score:5, Insightful)
Sony needs to learn that you can't use a legal sledgehammer to fix a bad technological band-aid on a legal/cultural problem.
Any business model that requires the rest of to sit down and STFU is not just broken -- it's pure evil.
For all the idiots whining that GeoHot forced Sony to take this action -- gosh, I'm sorry you forced your dad to beat you every night when you were growing up, but you should man up, go get some psychoanalysis, and figure out that you really weren't responsible for your dad's dickheaded behavior, just like George Hotz is not responsible for Sony's dickheaded behavior.
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So, even before it goes to court, you've decided that Sony are legally right, and that you don't want to fight this bullshit. Your idea that it's fine to release info as long as you do it anonymously is retarded in the extreme.
The rest of us have an issue with Sony's behaviour, and even if we don't agree with everything geohot does or much of how he does it, we tend to agree that it's a court case that needs to go the right way to put a stop to the continuing erosion of our rights over our hardware.
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With respect, what's happening in Tunisia, Egypt, Iran, Libya, Bahrain, ...
Is important. This's just fun. Have some perspective. Carry on.
Re:$20 for the fighting spirit (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:$20 for the fighting spirit (Score:5, Insightful)
a)That doesn't make consumer rights unimportant, or not worthy of some money for the good fight
b)There's little i can do to help the Egyptian people at the moment (not that they currently seem to need my help), but I can toss George Hotz $20 to fight what *is* an important legal battle here.
Civilization is built on a myriad of little things, you can't ignore the little stuff because there's lots of big stuff too. You fix the broken windows and the neighborhood gets safer. This case is a broken window. For that matter, in a way, you could relate these two things. A wikileaks cable is widely regarded as the straw that broke the camel's back in Tunisia. Legal protections for freedom of speech on the web (part of the GeoHot case) could have repercussions on anything else that gets published on the web (like, say, wikileaks), so perhaps I *am* helping, in some small way, to bring down the next Mubarak. But, most importantly, I am tossing some of my earned money to a cause I deem worthy, and that's my right.
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this is possibly the most perfect troll i've ever read here.
no sarcasm evident in it's tone whatsoever - only the madness of the post gives it away.
thank you for making my day :)
btw, pyramids.
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Do you think the people in those countries will put someone better into power? They'll just replace one Islamic dictator with another and nothing will really change.
Re:$20 for the fighting spirit (Score:4, Funny)
That's just a pleasant side effect of 'going Greek'
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Because there's still nothing wrong with donating money.
A Small Price (Score:5, Insightful)
My $50 is a small price to pay if it helps him win the case and set a precedent that leaves me free to discuss Sony's cryptographic failures.
Pulling out my hair. (Score:5, Insightful)
why are people doing this ? is it 'cool' when you embed the links with their link texts being parts of sentences ? what about usability, user friendliness ?
holy cow.
if someone can link the donation link in an non hipster, uncool, plain way, i will be grateful.
Re:Pulling out my hair. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Pulling out my hair. (Score:5, Funny)
> what about usability, user friendliness ?
Look at the pot calling the kettle black!
I can't count how many times I've gotten excited by your signature, only to realize upon closer inspection that it says, "Giri" not "Girl".
Unsubsidized Consoles? (Score:3)
So? (Score:5, Insightful)
Repeat after me: Not every business plan is viable or continues to be viable as times change.
The PC market does fine without subsidies, let console players pay the full price of their hardware so they stop saying how cheap their hardware is compared to a PC, while typing said message from a PC.
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Repeat after me: Not every business plan is viable or continues to be viable as times change.
Are you a consultant? I work in an industry that needs this advice and Sony's a part of said industry. Maybe they're taking their philosophies from the music branch...
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Repeat after me: Not every business plan is viable or continues to be viable as times change.
Repeat after me?
In any case the business plan is clearly still viable, there isn't anything wrong with it at all. If they offered an unsubsidized version of the console for homebrew in addition to the current model that would be a good solution, though this would have to be separate from the gaming networks to avoid the sort of cheating that is so widespread in online PC games.
The PC market does fine without subsidies
Obviously, it's a different market.
Re:So? (Score:4, Insightful)
In any case the business plan is clearly still viable, there isn't anything wrong with it at all.
No, the business plan is not viable, it is propped up by laws like the DMCA.
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In any case the business plan is clearly still viable, there isn't anything wrong with it at all.
No, the business plan is not viable, it is propped up by laws like the DMCA.
I think you'll find that *makes* the business plan viable, business plans operate within the confines of the law and as such can legitimately be 'propped up' by those laws.
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though this would have to be separate from the gaming networks to avoid the sort of cheating that is so widespread in online PC games.
It isn't widespread if the games are securely made and properly moderated. It's just that console developers expect the console to do everything for them. But, really, playing a game in a way that other people don't like is inherently bad in the first place.
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though this would have to be separate from the gaming networks to avoid the sort of cheating that is so widespread in online PC games.
It isn't widespread if the games are securely made and properly moderated. It's just that console developers expect the console to do everything for them.
How so? Which game - aside from MMOs - has avoided rampant cheating? Games like CS:S, TF, COD, etc... all suffer from people having things like aimbots, how do weed them out, what 'securely made' features are you going to add?
Consoles avoid this by not allowing modified versions of the game or the console to play on the network.
But, really, playing a game in a way that other people don't like is inherently bad in the first place.
Well the cheaters don't agree...which is kinda the point.
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How so? Which game - aside from MMOs - has avoided rampant cheating?
Certainly not many. Designing your game so that it isn't terribly easy to hack was what I was referring to (like not storing everything clientside). Now, if the servers are properly moderated, it shouldn't be that bad. If it is, that's really the server owner's fault.
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Even better repeat after me. When I buy something I own it. If I want to put home brew on a console I own then I will put home brew on my console. I am not even one of the folks on here that believe piracy is okay. But what I buy I own and while I can live with the idea that I can not copy it and sell it. "I am not allowed to copy a car and sell that" but do not say I can not take it apart and learn from it and share what I learn!
Re:Unsubsidized Consoles? (Score:5, Insightful)
Console is still subsidized (Score:2)
I'm not saying they are losing money on it, but they are not selling it at a sufficient profit to be doing well if that was all they made. They charge a per-game license, just like all the other console makers (hell they practically invented the concept).
You have to remember there's a difference between not losing money on the hardware and making a reasonable amount of money. The cost of the hardware isn't the only cost, there are all kinds of support costs on the back end for a company. If a piece of hardw
Re:Console is still subsidized (Score:4, Interesting)
Computers can give you a reasonable idea since they are unsubsidized.
Horse hockey! Haven't you ever had to clean extra "value added" crap off a computer? I certainly have; that shit subsidizes PCs all the time. No PC manufacturer I am aware of operates without this stuff. If they did it'd be great to be able to compare their pricing with, say, Dell's.
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Nintendo doesn't seem to have any problems...
Just because they aren't selling the console hardware at a loss doesn't mean they are making a profit, there are plenty of other associated development and ongoing costs that need to be covered, it's not just the cost of the hardware.
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Consoles are effectively "subsidized" by DMCA. If this kills it, I think it's a small price to pay.
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Have a look through WIPO and at EU directive 2001/29/ec.
WIPO does not enact laws. You, as an individual or as a corporation, cannot be convicted or fined for not complying with its terms. It's up to countries, and how they do so differs widely.
Similarly, EU directives are not laws. They're binding guidelines to enact laws for member states. And states have been rather reluctant to implement the anti-circumvention clause of this particular directive in full. Most did it with some very notable catches (e.g. France allows to disregard DRM for interoperability purpo
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I'm living in a country (Belgium, no kidding) where selling at a loss (which you call "subsidized") is forbidden - Sony consoles don't seem to be doing worse here than elsewhere.
I think you'll find they get around those laws, the cost of a PS3 in belgium isn't significantly higher than everywhere else in the world.
Comment to geohot (Score:2, Insightful)
I'm the one who submitted this story in trying to raise awareness and get you to raise funds from the slashdot community.. You deserve backup from many people to stand a good fight vs. sony..
Be careful, George.. You have a very strong opportunity to make a difference.. No one is saying you shouldn't benefit from it after it's over.. In fact, YOU SHOULD..
But take cautious steps in the middle.. You've appeared one time too many as being too media and attention centric.. Focus right now and enjoy the benefits
Re:Comment to geohot (Score:5, Informative)
By the way, I can't believe slashdot changed the link to the source...
Don't go to techspot.
Go to geohot.com [geohot.com]
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White text on a black background will only do two things:
- stop people from reading your text
- stop people from printing your text to display somewhere
Reverse that image if you really care about it.
P.S.: good call on the PNG format, though. Too often do I see similar graphics saved in JPEG.
$40 is not much... (Score:2)
Sure, I'll help (Score:5, Funny)
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That hasn't been true in quite a while. By the time they released the Slim, they were already making a profit on each console sold.
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I heard Sony loses money for every PS3 sold, so I went ahead and brought one to help out the cause.
Don't believe everything you hear.
The much-simplified and cheaper to manufacture PS3 Slim is the only model currently in production.
It's worth taking a moment to look at some stats:
Installed base: about 48 million units.
PSN accounts: 69 million
PlayStation Home: 17 million accounts
MOVE 4 million units
The PS3 is a family-oriented home entertainment center. It's natural home is below or to one side of the big screen HDTV and theater sound system -
and at $400 for the MOVE bundle - firmware upgraded - tha
Jailbreaking (Score:2)
Why isn't this covered under the recent jailbreaking decision?
$25, and happy to do it. (Score:3)
Re:I'd love to donate, just not via Paypal (Score:4, Funny)
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Sony's dicked around a lot of people, but Paypal's done so much worse than Sony. Denial of numerous non-profits own money such as Wikileaks, obscene service charges, shady privacy policy...
What the hell do you have to do to be more hated than Sony around here?
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be microsoft.
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Until PayPal decides to freeze your account and take your funds hostage on a whim. They can and will do this for no apparent reason and there is nothing you can do about it, as they have shown time and time again. Then you have these things called checks, money orders, Western Union, and wire transfers....
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Mailing cash around is orders of magnitude more work than sending money over the internet, and far less secure. Expecting people to do that for you is a recipe for disaster.
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i would put it that the shysters of the world are focusing more on electronic transactions than they would on cash in the mail.
geohot could post his bank deets and we could zap it into there directly...
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I've done thousands of international transactions and I can tell you that you are just plain wrong. In fact I've always gotten much lower exchange rates through my bank when I withdraw money overseas, I don't even bother exchanging money anymore.
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You wouldnt know HBGary by any chance?
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Re:Uhm no thanks (Score:5, Funny)
Isn't this kid's hack the reason every PS3 game is now rife with cheats?
No thanks, I'm rooting for Sony on this one.
I'm sure they'll return the favor...
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Sony, much like Microsoft with the Xbox 360, now ban anyone found to be using a hacked PS3 from the Playstation Network. "O noes mah onlien gaeman is filled wit CHEETARZ" is a short-term problem that won't be around for too much longer. "Holy crap my right to free speech and my right to modify my own possessions have just been torpedoed in the legal system" is a much MUCH longer-term problem that would take a lot of money and time to reverse. For Sony to win this one would set a scary precedent. Imagine a w
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You mean like in Korea where indie devs have to pay a criminally high fee even if the game is freeware?
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Que?
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Re:Free Speech rights? (Score:5, Insightful)
because inherently you have the right to alter things you own....EXCEPT when that device is suddenly covered under the DMCA, and suddenly it's illegal to do something with your own device. The grounds on which he is being sued on are based on unjust laws. If the DMCA had been passed 100 years ago it would be illegal to work on your car, to renovate your home, or to alter your clothes.
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Sony's getting the government to restrict Hotz's speech.
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the court(Judicial Branch of government) banned him from talking about the entire subject in public.
So? (Score:5, Insightful)
I feel absolutely no remorse for these companies.
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If you seriously believe the iPhone's BOM is higher than the unsubsidized retail price I have a bridge to sell you. When you buy one via AT&T or Verizon, it's the carrier eating the cost to fool you into thinking you got a deal with your contract.
Then why doesn't Apple disab
Not Sold at a loss... (Score:2)
The PS3 is NOT sold at a loss anymore and has not been for well over six months (see this story on
Linux Gaming Console. (Score:3)
I built a Linux based gaming Console for $230. Your point is invalid.
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The PS3 and iPhone both contain more parts in cost than their retail price reflects. So, when something is sold at a loss you can expect there to be some form of vendor lock-in in order for the add-on products to make back the money lost.
They're free to do so - vendor lock-in, DRM, whatever. It's all fair game.
What isn't fair game is putting in place a law that lets them criminalize anyone who deals away with their DRM and lock-in. If their business model is unsustainable without such a law, that's too bad, but they don't have a right to a profitable business model. They can still sell the consoles for full price.
Consumer slave (Score:2)
If they want to sell something at a loss, that is their business. I pay the price charged in the shop, afterwards it belongs to me.
What next, are you such a slave that you think that you OWE the supermarket to buy candy because they sell bread at a loss leader so if you only buy bread, you are stealing?
Grow a spine.
Sony sells the PS3 as a normal product, no contract no special deal (PSN is not part of the sale). Really, if I sell a coke to you for 10 cents, you now owe me? No, only willing slaves think like
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And in order to get that price, you sign a contract. The only thing you sign when buying a PS3 is the receipt for your credit card purchase, which is most certainly not a contract with Sony. When you enter a legally binding contract with Sony upon purchasing a PS3 requiring you to buy at least four games, they have a right to complain. Until that time comes - which it won't - they can enjoy a nice steaming mug of STFU.
Re:Huh. (Score:4, Insightful)
You have a problem with him reverse engineering the inner workings of a device he legally purchased and then sharing that information publicly?
Re:Huh. (Score:5, Informative)
The thing with trade secrets is that you're only bound by the NDA if you actually signed it.
If the company gives you the trade secret, without making you sign an NDA, but puts it inside a box, it's their fault if you open the box and get the trade secret, not yours.
As an example (Score:4, Insightful)
See RC4/ARCFOUR. RC4 was a trade secret of RSA. Nobody else could implement it because nobody knew how. However, it got leaked online. How the leaker got it is unknown. Maybe they reverse engineered it, maybe someone in the company leaked it, maybe there was hacking, who knows? However at that point, others got a hold of it and messed with it and sure enough, it made streams that were like RC4. So other implementations (ARCFOUR) were made.
At that point, the trade secret was no longer a secret so they didn't have control over it. Too bad, that's life.
See the US more or less gives you two choices when you have a special process or technology:
1) Patent it. In this case you are granted a limited time exclusive right to your technology, in exchange for all the details being public. During the limited time you can decide what is done with it, and take people to court if they violate your patent. However once it is up, people are going to be able to implement it since you had to publish the details to get your patent.
2) Keep it a secret. This is just as it implies, you don't tell anyone how it is done or how it works, so only you can do it. As long as you keep it a secret, it remains yours and that can be forever. However, if the secret gets out, well then too bad, isn't a secret anymore and others can have at it.
So while individuals can be punished for leaking trade secrets, if they are under NDA, or for stealing them via industrial espionage, someone who is just using the secret is in the clear because it isn't a secret. If they wanted something the courts enforce control over that's a patent.
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The thing with trade secrets is that you're only bound by the NDA if you actually signed it.
You are misinforming people. Please stop. NDAs are simple contracts covered by contract law. Trade secrets, on the other hand, apply to everyone because places like California have passed laws making it illegal to knowingly disclose trade secrets. It has NOTHING to do with having signed a contract and applies to everyone in the jurisdiction, not employees of the company in question.
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First, I think Geohot should eventually be vindicated.
The DMCA. I think a crypto key will be portrayed by Sony as a device in the same way that a key that starts a car or unlocks your house is a device. Once they establish that, they will use the DMCA to try to silence and punish him.
There are a few differences though. First, the key is quite literally just a number. It isn't a digital representation of something physical. Secondly, Geohot has been consistent when talki
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Funny, when last I checked, if you reverse engineer Coca Cola and discover their secret formula, you are allowed to disseminate that information.
Not in California or other states that have passed trade secret laws.
Re:Huh. (Score:5, Insightful)
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in this case, yeah, your lawyer friends would be wrong. maybe you should let them know that.
Re:Huh. (Score:5, Insightful)
So when exactly did geohot ever sign any agreement to keep their crypto key secret?
he's not their employee.
he has no privileged access.
If I analyse coca cola in a lab and figure out their secret formula I don't have to keep my findings secret because I've never signed up to any agreement with coca cola.
It's not my responsibility to keep their secrets secret.
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I didn't know leaking trade secrets, like say, a crypto key, was a free speech issue.
Writing and talking are considered speech. By extension, so is communicating with people over the internet. The constitution claims to protect free speech (from the government). The government ignores this and does as they wish anyway. If anything, your "lawyer friends" were warning you that the constitution is no longer relevant.
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Just because you make a law does not make it right or in line with the rights in the constitution. Fair dealing, in my personal opinion, sides with geohot. And he's got another $50, from me, to help make his case. You have to be careful not to be blinded by the maze your lawyers and their corporate friends have set up to separate common decency and fairness from the world of big business.
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then you aren't seeing the bigger picture. This is about companies being able to sue anyone they want into silence, while that person didn't break the law at all.
Re:Not A Fan Of Either (Score:5, Insightful)
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Hotz is the good guy here (Score:5, Insightful)
What's wrong with Hotz's activities? Are you saying he should not be allowed to do whatever he wants with the hardware he owns? He purchased his PS3 fair and square, from a retail vendor. He never signed any contract with Sony (nor even agreed to any EULA or ToS or similar bullshit).
Sony is the villain in this picture, they distributed a malicious update that DISABLED the perfectly functional OtherOS feature in existing fat PS3 consoles. They advertised those PS3s for years as being able to support OtherOS *and* being able to connect to the PlayStation network. Then they took these actions which force each PS3 owner to choose either one or the other, rather than keep both like they were originally advertised. That's bait-and-switch. As the owner of a fat PS3, Hotz was totally justified in hacking the hardware to reenable functionality of his console that was maliciously disabled by Sony. Anything he learned during that process (including crypto keys, etc.) can be shared freely because he never agreed to an NDA with Sony.
All these companies that think its OK to sell a piece of hardware and then use the legal system to prevent the OWNERS of that hardware from doing whatever the fuck they want with it, need a fucking reality check. And if you feel bad for them losing money because Hotz has given everyone back the ability to run whatever software they want on their Sony-subsidized computing devices, well maybe Sony should not have based their business model on holding their customers hostage.
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Wrong in so many ways.
You own the copy of the software, and are free to modify it as you wish.
You analogy is SO flawed it's incredible you could think it relevant.
THe other OS update is not "voluntary" - Sony illegally removed capability you paid for and was advertised on "fat" PS3's: namely access to PSN AND Other OS.
Sony was in the wrong on this, and continues to be in the wrong.
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01189998819991197253
Re:Sure. What is his bank account number? (Score:4, Funny)
Dude, you have some seriously messed up pr0n on your computer.
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You're right - it's much worse. It's about the right to communicate with your peers about your tinkering.
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He's helping people crack the PS3. That's illegal, kiddo. Look up the DMCA.
Did you even read the post to which you've replied? He mentioned DMCA as the first point on the list.
Yes, this is illegal under DMCA. But DMCA anti-circumvention provisions are an abomination in the first place, and if there is any chance to throw them out as unconstitutional, it's well worth donating.
It's also helping to ruin a gaming experience for which millions of people have paid millions of dollars.
Millions of people pay millions of dollars into Nigerian scams, too. Making it harder for them to do so "ruins their experience", but it's not wrong.
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I'm sure Hotz appreciates your generous donation. I hope one day we all will appreciate it through an open and free country.
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Sony is contending in their court filings that their private key and a text description of elliptic curve DSA together make up a "circumvention device". They're not going after him for physical devices or even source code, but for simply relaying information which, when combined with other public information can be used to sign code which will run on the PS3. They're trying to stretch the meaning of the DMCA so that even information about how to break video game console lock-in schemes is considered a DMC